Sherman Tanks and Panthers

[henri51]

Goodguy, thanks for the clarification, I meant to say that no SS PANZER Divisions (as implied by the movie "Saving Private Ryan") faced the US forces during the first couple of weeks after D-day. OTOH, the British and Canadians faced the 1st, 9th, 10th and 12th SS Panzer Divisions as well as elements of the 21st PZ early on. This is not to dismiss the difficulties faced by the US invasion forces (everyone knows that the toughest initial invasion front by far was the US front mostly because of the terrain). I don't understand why the makers of the supposedly historical movie felt obliged to add such obvious falsehoods, as if the real-life incidents were not dramatic enough. BTW, the initial fighting of the 17th SS PzGr that you describe was against paratroopers dropped in the wrong place, and not against the seaborne invasion forces to which the "Tom Hanks" character belonged. So I stand by my statement that the movie showing "Tom Hanks's" unit fighting SS units and tanks is ahistorical.

As for the use of 88s against tanks, you are correct, and I was misled by von Luck's account, which DOES show that if their antitank use was widespread, it was not universal. And in any case, they were certainly not used by Von Luck against the Americans as the movie says. Apparently, the movie moved British Operation Goodwood forward in time, and then spatially moved the 88s stopping the operation to the US front. You are probably right about experienced officers' bringing back experience from North Africa, since Von Luck had fought with Rommel in Africa.

Back to Von Luck's account, he does not mention the AA officer claiming that he had orders not to shoot at tanks, although that cannot be excluded.

Thanks for the clarifications.

Henri

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: henri51

....BTW, the initial fighting of the 17th SS PzGr that you describe was against paratroopers dropped in the wrong place, and not against the seaborne invasion forces to which the "Tom Hanks" character belonged. So I stand by my statement that the movie showing "Tom Hanks's" unit fighting SS units and tanks is ahistorical.

Actually, I own the movie. I have the german (dubbed) DVD version, but it contains the original english audio tracks, too. I guess you are referring to the scene at the beach, where the commander of Charlie Coy (Tom Hanks) reports to his superior officer, reporting about a mission conducted after the fight at the beach, sometime between D-Day and D-Day +3. Hanks reports about resistance from the German 346. Infantry Division as part of Kampfgruppe von Luck. Historically, the 346. Division was somewhere in that area, but von Luck wasn't. Hanks mentions the 88's, but he does not mention the SS: "They .... just didn't wanna give up those 88s".

Later on, when they meet Ryan, on the other side of the knocked out halftrack, Ryan's group mentions that the halftrack must have been a recon element of the 2nd Panzer-Division, which is, of course, another factual error, since the 2. SS-Panzer-Division did engage somewhere around Caen, facing British units.

I just played the movie, and I have not seen/heard a statement in that movie, neither in the German version nor in the English version, that would allow for a quote "Von Luck's 88s and the SS", yet. Von Luck's "Kampfgroup" is only mentioned during the scene I described above, well unless you point me to the exact minute where I can hear such statement. Right now, it sounds like you're mixing it up.

As for the use of 88s against tanks, you are correct, and I was misled by von Luck's account, which DOES show that if their antitank use was widespread, it was not universal.

Well, not necessarily, because you don't know the motivation behind that officer's statement.
Also, with the numbers of AT guns, Panzerfausts and Panzerschrecks that were available prior to D-Day, commanders of Flak units (means not just single guns in defensive positions), could very well assume that a unit's AT elements would jump in to take care of Allied tanks, before they would risk precious guns in relatively close (compared to the distance when serving as artillery with a range of ~15 kilometers) combat, as they could be deployed as capable artillery guns.

And in any case, they were certainly not used by Von Luck against the Americans as the movie says.

According to the movie script, 88s fired at Sherman tanks (moving inland or towards German strongpoints), knocking out "four of our Shermans and a number of our deuce and a half" (2.5 ton trucks), in the process. Hanks does not indicate whose 88s had been destroyed, he just mentions that Von Luck's 346. Inf Division and remnants of other units defended the 88 sites/area. So, except for the presence of Von Luck, such event could have occured, as the 346th Inf Division was in the area, at the time.

Apparently, the movie moved British Operation Goodwood forward in time, and then spatially moved the 88s stopping the operation to the US front.

They mixed in everything, Rangers (who actually climbed the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc), a bit of Goodwood, some fierce fighting SS units, a bridge, and a Tiger tank. Entertainment. Thrill.
Fact is, though, Normandy was packed with AA guns, despite the density being even higher in the Calais area. One reasoning for not conducting a landing in the Calais area was that the level of fortification with bunkers and coastal guns and the density of the AA network was deemed to be too high by the planners. The density in Normandy was still sufficient to get a carpet of shells in the air, when the Paras were dropped, though. Para veteran reports about the fierce AA fire describe the horror that they had to go through.

That said .... I don't think you understand how the German defensive network was organized. With regular air raids on French city railroad hubs, defense and radar installations in 1943 and 1944, the Germans had built up an array of Anti-aircraft guns of all available calibres in hundreds of places.
The chances were high, that Para troops, or tanks that were landed during D-Day or later on and brought forward (inland), would stumble over a roadblock or fortified position equipped with a MG 42 and a Flak 88, or even stumble into a group of (fixed?) 88s, intended to cover the beaches or protect installations.

You could find AA guns behind trench and bunker lines (like the 37mm or 22mm twin or quad-flak gun on top of Pointe du Hoc, which denied the rangers access to the 2nd trench line for a while), right behind the main beach front, as well as in reinforced and camouflaged hedgerows, as part of the defense at bridges and dams, in and around cities, and around harbors.
On top of that, fixed and mobile flak units were lined up at the usual routes of Allied bomber squadrons, ready to fill the air with their time fuzed shells. While the Flak network density in Germany was the highest one in Europe, Northern France, including its coastal areas, had good AA coverage as well. That density and the fear of high losses made the Allies pick landing and drop zones further away from more promising landing zones during the planning of Overlord and during the planning of Market Garden. Since the flak could be put on a carriage (where it then took 2 minutes for experienced crews to deploy it again, only, according to vet accounts), it could be hauled to chokepoints or to places where Allied attacks were imminent, rather quickly.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: henri51

Goodguy, thanks for the clarification, I meant to say that no SS PANZER Divisions (as implied by the movie "Saving Private Ryan") faced the US forces during the first couple of weeks after D-day. OTOH, the British and Canadians faced the 1st, 9th, 10th and 12th SS Panzer Divisions as well as elements of the 21st PZ early on. This is not to dismiss the difficulties faced by the US invasion forces (everyone knows that the toughest initial invasion front by far was the US front mostly because of the terrain). I don't understand why the makers of the supposedly historical movie felt obliged to add such obvious falsehoods, as if the real-life incidents were not dramatic enough. BTW, the initial fighting of the 17th SS PzGr that you describe was against paratroopers dropped in the wrong place, and not against the seaborne invasion forces to which the "Tom Hanks" character belonged. So I stand by my statement that the movie showing "Tom Hanks's" unit fighting SS units and tanks is ahistorical.

Hollywood gonna hollywood.

ORIGINAL: henri51

As for the use of 88s against tanks, you are correct, and I was misled by von Luck's account, which DOES show that if their antitank use was widespread, it was not universal. And in any case, they were certainly not used by Von Luck against the Americans as the movie says. Apparently, the movie moved British Operation Goodwood forward in time, and then spatially moved the 88s stopping the operation to the US front. You are probably right about experienced officers' bringing back experience from North Africa, since Von Luck had fought with Rommel in Africa.

They were used not only for AT, but also as field artillery and even against individual soldiers.

[henri51]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

I just played the movie, and I have not seen/heard a statement in that movie, neither in the German version nor in the English version, that would allow for a quote "Von Luck's 88s and the SS", yet. Von Luck's "Kampfgroup" is only mentioned during the scene I described above, well unless you point me to the exact minute where I can hear such statement. Right now, it sounds like you're mixing it up.

My statement about the SS presence has nothing to do with Von Luck, but my impression came from the uniforms that the German soldiers wore in the movie, which were SS camouflage uniforms, unless I have my German uniforms mixed up.There may have been other indications, but since it is at least a couple of years since I saw the movie, I cannot remember.

Henri

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: henri51

BTW, the initial fighting of the 17th SS PzGr that you describe was against paratroopers dropped in the wrong place, and not against the seaborne invasion forces to which the "Tom Hanks" character belonged.

That's not entirely correct, either.
The part "Carentan" of "Band of Brothers" correctly depicts the Para's organized move towards and their defense of the outskirts of Carentan, which was one of the early goals for the task to secure the edges and connect the hinterland of the landing zones and form a solid bridgehead. While they couldn't depict the entire fighting, with 60 Shermans involved later on, it still gives you an idea of what happened.

Units of the 2nd Armored Division (which had landed at Omaha Beach), respective its suborbinated 66th Armored Regiment as part of COmbat Command A, assisted by some Mech Inf, the 41st Armored Inf Regiment and elements of the 29th Inf Division, it seems, were in reserve for and availabe to 101st Airborne elements, during the fight for Carentan. After a company of the 401st GIR had linked up with the 29th Infantry Division on 10th of June, the 66th Armored Regiment and elements of the 29th Inf Division fought against German Fallschirmjäger and the 17th SS-Panzergrenadier-Division southwest of Carentan, on 13th of June.

While I hate to quote Wiki, the following is an excellent summary of events depicted in "Carentan" (at around 38:36 mins), and it also saves me from having to describe (or translate German sources covering) the events myself:

ORIGINAL: Wiki *yeah yeah, cough*

"At dawn on 13 June, the 101st Airborne was about to attack the German line when it was attacked by tanks and assault guns. Two battalions of the 37th Panzergrenadier Regiment, supported by the 17th Panzer Battalion and III./FJR6,[15] struck hard at the 501st PIR on the American left, which fell back under heavy pressure.[13] The left flank companies (Dog and Fox Companies) of the 506th then gave way, and by noon the spearheads of the German attack were within 500 yards of Carentan. However, Company E (Easy) of the 506th, commanded by 1st Lt. Richard D. Winters, anchored its right flank against a railroad embankment and held its position. Reinforced by the 2nd/502nd PIR taking position on its right, Easy Company slowed the German attack until American tanks could be brought up.

EDIT : In the official US Army history, there is an account describing how one soldier/officer is being sent back to go and find some tanks, and leading them (2 or 3 Shermans) back to his Company. I can't remember if it was that particular event/company (E), right now, but it would actually match the scene depicted in Band of Brothers, where the Shermans show up just in time.
Btw, that account was depicted in one of the "Brothers In Arms" PC games, where the player has to leave his platoon to find the Shermans.

ORIGINAL: Wiki

Reacting to an Ultra warning of the size and threat of the counterattack,[9] Lieutenant General Bradley diverted CCA U.S. 2nd Armored Division (commanded by Brig. Gen. Maurice Rose and near Isigny sur mer) to Carentan at 10:30. At 14:00 CCA attacked, supported by the self-propelled howitzers of the 14th Armored Field Artillery Battalion. One task force of tanks and mechanized infantry surged down the road to Baupte in the 2nd/506th's area and shattered the main German thrust. A second task force drove back German forces along the Périers highway, inflicting heavy losses in men and equipment.[16] CCA, followed by the 502nd PIR, then pushed west a mile beyond the original lines.

The counterattack became known anecdotally among the surviving paratroopers as the 'Battle of Bloody Gulch'. "

As you see, there were tanks involved on both sides.
Btw, Winter's defense setup at the bottom of the slope (allowing his men to aim uphill, with the sky delivering a perfect contrast for spotting the enemy inf's silhouettes) found its way to West Point, too.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: henri51


My statement about the SS presence has nothing to do with Von Luck, but my impression came from the uniforms that the German soldiers wore in the movie, which were SS camouflage uniforms, unless I have my German uniforms mixed up.

Alrighty!

Your initial statement sounded like it, though:

ORIGINAL: henri51
...where a few days after the invasion an officer reports that they are delayed by Von Luck's 88s and the SS....

And since there's no line anywhere in the movie, as far as I can tell, mentioning von Luck AND the SS, your statement puzzled me.

Whatsoever, SS units are in the Ryan movie, not sure about the camouflage uniforms, but the latter were almost absolutely exclusive to SS units (some small non-SS units/individuals obtained camo uniforms), indeed.