I hope Matrix doesnt make us use STEAM to buy games in the future

[wodin]

No Gamersgate.

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

What, on Steam? I have a couple of pre-acquisition AGEOD games that I bought on Steam. When in my Library if I click on the link to their Store Page it just boots me to the front page of Steam's store. Same with using the Search field on that front page...type in the names of various AGEOD titles and nothing is found.

If you bought anything from Steam prior to it being removed from the Store, you still own it and can download it and it'll still work on Steam ... but anyone who doesn't have it cannot buy it anymore. (EDIT: Gamersgate and GOG work the same way)

It's typical for a game to be removed from the store in cases when the publisher or the copyright changes, and then to be put back in once a new deal with the new publisher has been worked out, but for the AGEOD games to have never come back is probably indicative of AGEOD signing some kind of exclusivity with Matrix with regards to distribution.

[Qwixt]

Did matrix say something about moving to steam, or is this just rumor mongering?

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: Qwixt

Did matrix say something about moving to steam, or is this just rumor mongering?

Panzer Corps just got Greenlit, which means a version of it will be released to Steam.

People are reacting to the potential of more of the catalogue moving over to Steam, or of this or other releases being Steam-exclusives.

[Alchenar]

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

"Profit margin is the percentage of selling price that turned into profit." (Profit margin) Units sold doesn't enter into it, bro.

No, it's Net Profit over Revenue. Guess what happens to the number needed for net profit when revenue goes up but costs remain static (because virtually all of the cost of a digital product is incurred in development, assuming you aren't spending on marketing)?

NPM = NP/R, where NP = R - C

Let's say I'm selling something at $25K a unit, with a fixed cost of $50K (development, digital distribution afterwards).

4 units NP $100K - $50K = $50K
NPM = 50% profit

6 units NP $150K - $50K = $100K
NPM = 75% profit

8 units NP $200K - $50K = $150K
NPM = 100% profit

As your units sold (shipped) goes up your profit margin also goes up. To quote someone,

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

I don't think you know how profit margins work. (hint: the more units you ship, the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit)

The more units you ship, the lower your unit price needs to be to make the exact same profit . Leave the unit price where it is and your profit increases.

I don't know what your point is anymore. You haven't disagreed with me. The point is that Valve taking a cut doesn't have anything to do with profit margins.

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

I don't know what your point is anymore. You haven't disagreed with me. The point is that Valve taking a cut doesn't have anything to do with profit margins.

The point was (and is) that you have stated that the more units you ship the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit.

That is blatantly false. If you lower your unit price (whether you sell 10 or 10 million units), you make less profit. Period.

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

It's typical for a game to be removed from the store in cases when the publisher or the copyright changes, and then to be put back in once a new deal with the new publisher has been worked out, but for the AGEOD games to have never come back is probably indicative of AGEOD signing some kind of exclusivity with Matrix with regards to distribution.

AFAIK there is no agreement with AGEOD, Matrix owns it lock, stock, and barrel...although an exclusive distribution agreement would amount to the same thing, I guess. How ironic that some here fear Matrix getting locked into one distribution network when in effect they are already there.

As for the rest I was well aware of the circumstances, Wodin stated

ORIGINAL: wodin

Though I have seen some around only the other day.

on GamersGate as it turns out. And I don't think that's possible since the Matrix contraction.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

I don't know what your point is anymore. You haven't disagreed with me. The point is that Valve taking a cut doesn't have anything to do with profit margins.

The point was (and is) that you have stated that the more units you ship the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit.

That is blatantly false. If you lower your unit price (whether you sell 10 or 10 million units), you make less profit. Period.

He's talking about quantity sales. The more you sell at a lesser price because you sell more is a profit. If I sell 1 item at 10 and 3 items at 7 (because I got a boost in sales figures because I LOWERED the price) I did better selling 3 of the items @7 than I did just 1. Quantity sales at lower prices is the better way to go no matter how you "say" it.

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

I don't know what your point is anymore. You haven't disagreed with me. The point is that Valve taking a cut doesn't have anything to do with profit margins.

The point was (and is) that you have stated that the more units you ship the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit.

That is blatantly false. If you lower your unit price (whether you sell 10 or 10 million units), you make less profit. Period.

He's talking about quantity sales. The more you sell at a lesser price because you sell more is a profit. If I sell 1 item at 10 and 3 items at 7 (because I got a boost in sales figures because I LOWERED the price) I did better selling 3 of the items @7 than I did just 1. Quantity sales at lower prices is the better way to go no matter how you "say" it.

Yes, Elmer Fudd taught me that when I was seven.

But Alchenar didn't say anything close to what you're talking about. If it's what he meant, fine, but he literally said the more units you make/ship/sell, the lower your price has to be to make a profit.

[Alchenar]

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555



The point was (and is) that you have stated that the more units you ship the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit.

That is blatantly false. If you lower your unit price (whether you sell 10 or 10 million units), you make less profit. Period.

He's talking about quantity sales. The more you sell at a lesser price because you sell more is a profit. If I sell 1 item at 10 and 3 items at 7 (because I got a boost in sales figures because I LOWERED the price) I did better selling 3 of the items @7 than I did just 1. Quantity sales at lower prices is the better way to go no matter how you "say" it.

Yes, Elmer Fudd taught me that when I was seven.

But he didn't say anything close to what you're talking about. If it's what he meant, fine, but he literally said the more units you make/ship/sell, the lower your price has to be to make a profit.

And that remains true.

If product x cost $5 million to make then the revenue you need in order to make a profit is $5 million. That's always true. If the cost of distributing a product is effectively negligible (as it is when considering a digital product in proportion to the development costs) then the revenue needed for a profit remains constant whether you sell ten units or ten thousand. Therefore the more units you expect to ship the lower you can drop the unit price and still expect to see a profit (which matters if there are other products with which you are competing on price).

It's therefore ridiculous to just assert that the Valve take cuts into a 'razer thin' profit margin because the massive potential increase in units you can ship over steam (see the linked thread where UoC sells more units over Steam in two months than in a year of everything else combined) reduces the take Matrix/Slitherine/Developer needs to get per unit in order to see a profit.

Obviously the greater proportion of take the more profit, but you have to weigh the cut Valve takes over the increased units you'll sell via their distribution stream. That's what you're paying them for and it's why everyone makes more money in the end (provided you are actually competitive in the market). This doesn't work for all games, and if you don't take advantage of the promotion options Valve offers then it'll work for vary degrees for the games that get on Steam.

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Yes, Elmer Fudd taught me that when I was seven.

But Alchenar didn't say anything close to what you're talking about. If it's what he meant, fine, but he literally said the more units you make/ship/sell, the lower your price has to be to make a profit.

The original comment being replied to was:

"Sigh... Calm down, Steam alarmists. There's not much reason for Sliterine to tie themselves to Steam; their profit margins are probably RAZOR thin as is, so why would they let Steam take a cut?"

The only way "Steam taking a cut" would be detrimental to Slitherine would be if they never sold another copy as a result of a Steam release of PzC. That's a hilarious hypothetical to assume!

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555



The point was (and is) that you have stated that the more units you ship the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit.

That is blatantly false. If you lower your unit price (whether you sell 10 or 10 million units), you make less profit. Period.

He's talking about quantity sales. The more you sell at a lesser price because you sell more is a profit. If I sell 1 item at 10 and 3 items at 7 (because I got a boost in sales figures because I LOWERED the price) I did better selling 3 of the items @7 than I did just 1. Quantity sales at lower prices is the better way to go no matter how you "say" it.

Yes, Elmer Fudd taught me that when I was seven.

But Alchenar didn't say anything close to what you're talking about. If it's what he meant, fine, but he literally said the more units you make/ship/sell, the lower your price has to be to make a profit.

No one speaks a deep a deep a deep as clearly as I do. [:D]

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Yes, Elmer Fudd taught me that when I was seven.

But Alchenar didn't say anything close to what you're talking about. If it's what he meant, fine, but he literally said the more units you make/ship/sell, the lower your price has to be to make a profit.

The original comment being replied to was:

"Sigh... Calm down, Steam alarmists. There's not much reason for Sliterine to tie themselves to Steam; their profit margins are probably RAZOR thin as is, so why would they let Steam take a cut?"

The only way "Steam taking a cut" would be detrimental to Slitherine would be if they never sold another copy as a result of a Steam release of PzC. That's a hilarious hypothetical to assume!

And here I had just assumed the OC was being sarcastic.

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

No one speaks a deep a deep a deep as clearly as I do. [:D]

That's Porky Pig, not Elmer Fudd.

[Fintilgin]

ORIGINAL: Lützow
Yeah, but unlike PanzerCorps the vast majority of Matrix products doesn't really fit to Steam portfolio and Matrix would cannibalize themselves if titles as WiF or WitP AE are offered with a 75% discount every now and then.

I doubt it. It would probably result in thousands and thousands of people buying the title and injection of new blood into the wargaming community. Tons of people who, having bought and enjoyed the games might now be interested in buying other titles offered.

Keeping these games in a walled garden of purposefully inflated prices with a kludgy old digital distribution system because it's a 'niche' product creates a self fulfilling prophecy where it only sells to fanatics.

War in the East, for example, is pretty damn easy to get into and start pushing counters around and I think would probably make Matrix more money priced at 30-40$ on Steam (20$ on sale), in short order, then it has made in its entire release history so far.

[warspite1]

Just one question.

Why is it that so many people state so confidently that if the price of something drops, then thousands of people will rush to buy what previously they wouldn't - and that the company selling automatically makes more profits??

On what basis is this fact or even probable?

If life was that simple then why would any company ever go out of business? Got a product? Not selling? No problem, just slash the price and all will be well.....

[Alchenar]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Just one question.

Why is it that so many people state so confidently that if the price of something drops, then thousands of people will rush to buy what previously they wouldn't - and that the company selling automatically makes more profits??

On what basis is this fact or even probable?

If life was that simple then why would any company ever go out of business? Got a product? Not selling? No problem, just slash the price and all will be well.....

Repeated statistical evidence we pull together every time this topic comes around?

It's not true of all products and it's not true of all games, but even a 30 second google search will show you a few examples of people talking about the massive amount of research Valve has done into spending trends (it's why they're so incredibly rich right now). It's a fairly intuitive fact that different people put different values on a product and therefore when you drop a price (after waiting for everyone willing to buy at the higher price to make their purchase) you get money from the group that was previously unwilling to buy.

Also you need to pay attention to the fact that for digital products there isn't a per-unit cost (the argument I made above). There's just the lifetime cost vs lifetime revenue.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: Dorb

Wonder why it is when in free market, someone does something really good, it becomes a target to be torn down and hated? ( MS,Walmart,Apple...etc)
No one ever offers to come up with something better-and how would they run it... guess they would do the same thing.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Why would I come up with something better it when someone else already did? I can buy games DRM-free on GOG or HumbleStore or only with keycode from Matrix Games.
And I haven't used a MS system outside school since Windows 98.

[Fintilgin]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Just one question.

Why is it that so many people state so confidently that if the price of something drops, then thousands of people will rush to buy what previously they wouldn't - and that the company selling automatically makes more profits??

On what basis is this fact or even probable?

If life was that simple then why would any company ever go out of business? Got a product? Not selling? No problem, just slash the price and all will be well.....

Because that's what plenty of people have said Steam sales have done for them? You know Steam doesn't force those discounts on publishers, right? They have control over how steep the discount is. If it wasn't working for the publishers and people making the games they wouldn't keep doing it!

I've read articles too that say sales of a title are often higher after the sale is over and the game goes back to its regular price then it was before the sale (presumably from word of mouth).

Right now these games are kinda 'hidden away'. If you aren't already a fan of wargames you're not that likely to find your way here. What do you think will happen if you take some of the high quality titles Matrix has and put them in front of an audience of seven million people at a price designed to encourage people to take a chance on them?

Matrix won't lose money, that's for sure, and you can potentially bring in tons of new people to the hobby, which will pay vast long term dividends for the hobby as a whole.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Just one question.

Why is it that so many people state so confidently that if the price of something drops, then thousands of people will rush to buy what previously they wouldn't - and that the company selling automatically makes more profits??

On what basis is this fact or even probable?

If life was that simple then why would any company ever go out of business? Got a product? Not selling? No problem, just slash the price and all will be well.....

Repeated statistical evidence we pull together every time this topic comes around?

It's not true of all products and it's not true of all games, but even a 30 second google search will show you a few examples of people talking about the massive amount of research Valve has done into spending trends (it's why they're so incredibly rich right now). It's a fairly intuitive fact that different people put different values on a product and therefore when you drop a price (after waiting for everyone willing to buy at the higher price to make their purchase) you get money from the group that was previously unwilling to buy.

Also you need to pay attention to the fact that for digital products there isn't a per-unit cost (the argument I made above). There's just the lifetime cost vs lifetime revenue.

warspite1

Out of interest, where does the statistical evidence come from?

And you make the point - not every product and not all games. And this is the issue I have with this argument and games like WITP-AE and the like. Slashing the price does not necessarily get you added revenue because the number buying such a niche product is very limited in the first place.