I'm glad I'm not the only one that struggles with this game. I am wondering if the scenarios are balanced after the updates. It seems to me playing the NATO side in the smaller scenarios it's hard to get anything more than a marginal victory and that's after suffering a few beatings. Still a great game but limited orders is really a buzz kill.
The scenarios were not balanced for limited orders. They are balanced for unlimited orders. Limited orders is an option in the game if you want a bigger challenge. I would say it lives up to that expectation on our part.
Good Hunting.
MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
I have played as NATO 'A time to dance v2.08' as a PBEM with Comsolut (limited orders, no auto resupply and fog of war). While getting a good noob trashing I also replayed it a few times vs the AI. A few lessons have been learned:
- only the South most bridge 1119 can be blown in time before the Reds arrive.
- defending on the wooded ridges above the stream (1515) is not feasible anymore in 2.08. I lost my units placed there real fast.
- a tank unit arrives early in hex 1214. Use one of your orders to move it out of harm's way ASAP. It never survived more than a turn there.
- set two strongpoints: a tank unit on `hold' in hexes 0512 and 1606 respectively. Cover them with smoke once spotted and add additional support in hex 1114. This will create two nice killing zones if the Reds decide to move forward. This worked great against the AI. A human may be smarter.
- Your command cycle is effective only if your HQs stay intact. Disperse your HQs as soon as possible and dig them out of sight.
- keep your on map Mortar unit moving. It will scoot on its own, but move it a few hexes every other turn at least. Red Arty is deadly on soft targets.
- NATO (well US) tanks are effective at range, use them that way. It's your only hope.
wohoo! thanks genehaynes and governato, that pointed me in the right direction! And may I add
- send your recon units east across the river to threaten the victory locations there, this really panicks the AI [:D]
Maybe a word of warning that this is a really hard scenario would have been nice, because guess which scenario a newbie like me picks first after playing the tutorial... let's start with a small one, probably nato seems more familiar, now which one is first on the list... [:@]
A Time To Dance is the scenario we point people to after the Tutorial.
For a couple of reasons:
1) It's so small you can play it several times in a single sitting and try different things. Even go looking for tips on the different sites that talk about FPC and still have time to replay it.
2) It's a great challenge and you can get OH...SO...CLOSE...to winning it and still be left with that bad taste in your mouth that you were this close >< to having stopped that attack cold.
3) It really, really, shows off the ability of the AI. This is a different beast and you find out right at the start that it's not the average 'dumb as a box of rocks AI' you are used to.
4) It's fun!!
So, add it all up and yes, it is challenging, short, brutal and fun!! What more could you ask for in your introductory scenario to the game system?! [&o]
Good Hunting.
MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
You have a point there. It certainly made me read the manual, rethink options and plans and go out looking for AARs and videos on how the hell to deal with it, very educational indeed! Also, nothing more satisfying than a steep challenge finally overcome. [;)]
"Time to Dance" is definitely a great scenario for truly understanding and ENJOYING the game. That is if you are an obsessive-compulsive nut job who enjoys beating head against wall, but aren't we all?
After numerous tries at all of the above strategies, I finally got an 80% score with 60-ish percent forces remaining. This was playing v2.08 with unlimited commands and staff-directed "auto-artillery". Forget blowing the bridges or defending anything east of Bad Neustadt. Defend in depth West of the town from 0415 and Lebenhan, I sent all my M1A1's up onto those two hills to hold. The plains northwest of BN and the valley at 0616 were my killzone. Any spare units were deployed along the route NES40 line and the treeline at 1114/1214, sending in flanking fire. A few lucky rainstorms came in making for a real field day as NATO IR sights dominated the battlefield. 5 hours in, I had the Soviet forces below 30% strength and a 30% score. It was only a matter of time to whittle down the remainder enough to be able to sweep back in and pick up the remaining VP hexes.
Three notes:
1) I kept the last batch of cav (3 recon units) in reserve up north at Unsleben, I needed them to get the VP hexes in Heustreu and the 1500 VP hexes across the river. The Soviets counterattacked towards Heustreu with all they had left (leaving 3000VP hex 1615 uncovered) and I barely held on, sending remaining HQ units in to reinforce. I did not recover 1615 (see note 2)
2) My initial setup was a HumVee in hex 1119 to blow the one bridge in BN, and the rest of the recon force on the westernmost setup hex (08197, I think). I sent them all across the westernmost bridge and deep into the rear (east) towards the 1500pt VP hexes. The Bradleys managed to harass and divert the Mech Rifle Companies, even destroy a few runners before dying. This was worth it, delaying the onslaught towards Bad Neustadt. But the remaining Hummers got wiped out for nothing. Next time, I'll send them north of Wollbach to help out in the last-minute scramble for the VP hexes. When time ran out, I had a tank HQ doing hasty movement towards the last VP hex 1615. Otherwise, I would have had over 83% for a decisive victory. So don't waste the HumVees!
3) Reorg the forces (attaching to nearby HQ's) as soon as possible. I did one big reorg about 3 hours in and wound up with a 53 minute turn... agonizing. But I also wound up with a "spare" tank HQ (nothing attached) with a M1A1 that I used to send flanking fire down on my KZ, so it worked out. I let the NATO AI handle the (sparse) artillery, not enough command cycles to do it myself. I would have liked to lay some smoke, but every time I was ready to give a smoke mission the mortar unit was scooting. Oh well, the AI did a fine job laying down harassing fire.
Overall, a great scenario - you have to use NATO's strength in standoff fighting against the WP's doctrinal weakness of trying to force all their units all their units down one path - N275. And it truly illustrates the point of "Don't fight for ground, fight to kill the enemy". As an eye-opener, try playing the WP version of this scenario! It was not as easy as I thought it would be (you start with all bridges already blown) and the tactical problem of how to overwatch the units assigned to throwing up new bridges against NATO's longer range capabilities... I beat NATO by bridging in 3 different places (Heustreu, 1615, and inside BN), taking heavy losses but eventually just overwhelming the defenses with sheer numbers. A fun and eye-opening scenario for either side!
A couple other inputs here.
1). MR has put together great scenarios that Rob and I have disrupted by fixing bugs with spotting, combat, and AI. The game runs better now of course and acts as initially intended, but it has made the scenarios tougher to play with the changes in those factors. Secondly, in doing bug squashing and testing, we have never given MR time to take stable code and look at balance again. Going forward in the 2.1 plan we will need to give him time to review scenario play. That will mean longer patch cycle times, but it will give you guys scenarios with less game impact than what you have now.
2). Options. Certain options are given to make the game easier or harder to play than the baseline. We will look to do a better job in 2.1 to show those items in that way so there is less confusion.
3). Screening. The bane of the 2.0x series. The problem is that there are many more situations than the single order can cover for a single type of role/unit. Some want their units to look and run, others want fight and scoot when taking losses. The one simple order can't fairly control the situation. We will fix this problem in 2.1 with the enhanced orders and SOPs.
Hopefully some insight into what we did and what we plan to do.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!
Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LTD
Wow, after playing this game again I am amazed how hard it has become. I remember playing A Time to Dance when the game came out and winning without great difficulties, and now I have played the scenario with D,E,F as before about 10 times and always get a decisive loss no matter what I do. Tried defending at the first wooden area around Wollbach and then further back around Lebenhan and to the north of it. Further back seems to work a little better but I am not getting anywhere near winning, I do kill around 30% more than the enemy but that is not nearly enough, and end up with no VP.
Has anybody won this scenario with 2.09 and has any hints or a playthrough?
What also struck me is that you no longer can deploy your units at the bridges in the beginning so blowing any of them is not an option any more.
It seems to me you have to defend so far back that taking back VPs within the time limit seems impossible, although I don't even quite get there because up until about 2 hours time left I am holding on and then ususally 6 tanks and 4 IFV die in a row, poof like that. Is this the intended balance or are there any changes planned in the future?
Not even thinking about starting a campaign again when I get my ass handed to me like that.
A Time to Dance is a classic scenario in the game. I've played it so many times as a way to test changes as we have done them. It is a hard fight for NATO. You can usually blow one bridge and every once in a blue moon get a second. You need to use cover and range to hit the Soviets as they advance. As more forces "wake up", getting them into useful positions is key. I work to get Mech units into and around Heustreu. Tanks I push across the ridge and tree line north of Bad Nuestadt and work to get kills along N279. Use smoke on or in front of your forces for cover when the mortar shows up. Keep your HQs on the move in the Wollback area to avoid being a static arty target. Once you deplete the Soviets, work on counter attacking the VPs along the river with whatever decent size forces you have remaining.
As posted elsewhere, Steve will be looking to rebalance all the scenarios now that the rest of us aren't making internal changes to things. That should help ease a bit of the shock value on a few scenarios. Of course, no one ever said war was fair. [;)]
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!
Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LTD
I am playing the game now and the screen came up about ending the game early, I had a 54% lead and I managed to move two of my units toward one of the bridges.
Playing this scenario with Limited Orders is akin to being in an Olympic Full Contact Martial Arts match. You may win but you'll know for for sure you've been in a fight.
I'm working at rebalancing these again and A Time To Dance will get an update.
You should know that I never release anything that I've not personally achieved at least a contested with. I consider a contested result as a win since you didn't lose.
Best of luck with all the scenarios you have in the game now and this rebalanced one is coming right up as well.
Good Hunting.
MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
