Best Race at start?

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Aeson
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by Aeson »

You would be amazed at what you could accomplish with some manual intelligence work.
No, I really wouldn't, considering that I've played with manual intelligence work more than a little. It's incredibly dependent on whether or not you get a decent intelligence agent, or have enough luck with the missions you assign to a mediocre intelligence agent to turn that agent into a good one, and the late-game techs take a long time to steal even with a decent agent. With a great agent it's not that much trouble, sure, but you don't always have a great agent.
Also, the fuel efficiency in Quameno reactors is quite useful even in endgame, as it essentially allows your ships to travel further and fight longer without having to go home to refuel.
Let's compare the NovaCore III to the HyperFusion reactor chain. The NovaCore III gives 192 output and 375 storage for 2 fuel per thousand energy and 20 space. The HyperFusion I gives 180 output and 350 storage for 2.79 fuel per thousand energy and 16 space. That's about 17% more output per size unit for about 40% more fuel consumption. The HyperFusion II gives 215 output and 440 storage for 16 space and 2.67 fuel per thousand energy, or about 40% more output per size unit for about 34% more fuel consumption. The HyperFusion III gives 260 output and 540 storage for 16 space and 2.52 fuel per thousand energy, or a little over 69% more output per size unit for 26% more fuel consumption. If you use the same armament and defenses on the design with HyperFusion reactors as you do with NovaCore IIIs, you'll end up with either a smaller design or space to put in more fuel cells. Now, maybe you won't be able to put in enough fuel cells to fully make up the difference, but it's still not going to be all that significant of a difference in operating time if you fill the space you save on reactors with fuel cells. If you switch your NovaCores over to HyperFusion reactors just by replacing the reactors rather than by matching the output (which isn't optimal, as you're wasting reactor output in doing so), you gain enough space for two fuel cells for every three reactors you switch over. The difference is there, but it's not necessarily all that big of a difference.

Moreover, this still does not affect the standing of the Zenox and Kiadians with respect to the other species in the game. Your argument is kind of like saying that if all the people on the forum took a test, and you and I scored identically except in one category, where you did better than I did, my ranking among all the forum users should be reduced because I didn't do as well as you did in that one category, regardless of how well I did compared to everyone else. The fact that you performed better than I did in no way changes how I performed in comparison to everyone else, yet if we took your argument for scoring the Zenox and Kiadians lower and applied it to this scenario, then I should receive a ranking lower than what my overall score would indicate. Unless, despite all appearances, your argument is really that Kiadians and Zenox aren't good enough to be in Spidey's third grouping rather than that they're not as good as Quameno and so less worthwhile to play?
Nanaki
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by Nanaki »

It kind of makes me wonder if maybe research bonuses should be reduced across the board. After all, Republic/Democracy are almost always chosen by players because of their research bonus.
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DeadlyShoe
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by DeadlyShoe »

the value of research bonuses fluctuates with game settings.

they only really get outta control with tech trading because then technology also functions as economic strength. a single tech can be worth years of empire income. of course players asploit tech trading way more than AIs do so its more beneficial for players than AI. tech trading breaks the game basically but w/e.

it's also important to note that economic-type bonuses also benefit your ability to research to a limited extent. I don't know exactly how base research value scales but i think it goes off GDP nonlinearly.

Nanaki
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by Nanaki »

I think you sell espionage short. The Ketarov get a bonus to maximum intelligence agents which you CANNOT get through assimilation. In addition, Espionage can be extremely powerful, you can not only steal normal techs but you can steal racial techs, which is the only way to get them if you turned off tech trading (which I do), in addition, you can easily get ahead in techs with Ketarov by researching a single field very, very far, while using espionage to steal techs from the other fields so you do not fall behind. On top of this, you can use espionage to change governments, assassinate characters, acquire maps, destroy bases, etc. Your intelligence agents can get 'inspiring leader' trait which gives a passive exp gain to all characters at that location, which is usually your homeworld which means it will affect your leader, colonial governor (if you have one), and other intelligence agents. However, what gives espionage a bad rap is that the AI is really, really, really bad at it, its one of those functions which a human absolutly has to micromanage in order to make the best of it.
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Gilmer
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by Gilmer »

I like the insects. I hated the Ketarovs.
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aaatoysandmore
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by aaatoysandmore »

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

I think you sell espionage short. The Ketarov get a bonus to maximum intelligence agents which you CANNOT get through assimilation. In addition, Espionage can be extremely powerful, you can not only steal normal techs but you can steal racial techs, which is the only way to get them if you turned off tech trading (which I do), in addition, you can easily get ahead in techs with Ketarov by researching a single field very, very far, while using espionage to steal techs from the other fields so you do not fall behind. On top of this, you can use espionage to change governments, assassinate characters, acquire maps, destroy bases, etc. Your intelligence agents can get 'inspiring leader' trait which gives a passive exp gain to all characters at that location, which is usually your homeworld which means it will affect your leader, colonial governor (if you have one), and other intelligence agents. However, what gives espionage a bad rap is that the AI is really, really, really bad at it, its one of those functions which a human absolutly has to micromanage in order to make the best of it.

I leave ON tech trading and just let the AI tech trade and I do not? I have any self control not to exploit the ai. I don't even use espionage to steal techs. The ai is already poor why exploit it?
Nanaki
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by Nanaki »

I find it pretty silly that people handicap themselves just because the AI is terrible. I turn tech trading off because I dislike the concept, not because of any handicap.
I ate the batter of the bulge at Hans' Haus of Luftwaffles
aaatoysandmore
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by aaatoysandmore »

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

I find it pretty silly that people handicap themselves just because the AI is terrible. I turn tech trading off because I dislike the concept, not because of any handicap.


Sureeee you do. It's ok we understand.[:D]
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Keston
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by Keston »

Technical assistance to allies and technical exchanges are realistic and appropriate, but take time to learn and make use of, the more so the bigger the gap in starting positions.
Sindri
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by Sindri »

What about Caleph then? (from DWE) they have tons of good captains and admirals, easy win conditions, volcanic colonization and good reproduction rate and special fighters. They are my fav civ as they are space war oriented and dominate others in mid game to late game :)
aaatoysandmore
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by aaatoysandmore »

Wow the research and technology advantage for the Q's is outstanding. But they do lack in destroyer building in the early game. If the pirates of another faction get to them early could spell disaster. Not much defense with frigates and escorts.

Also, income is slow in the beginning. Course high research does remedy that somewhat but once again if encoutered by pirates or other factions in the early game could spell disaster. I already have to please one pirate faction that came upon me quite early in the game and I have pirates set at distant.

I guess if you play on an easy enough start they could be pretty good. But, On a hard or extremely hard start I'm not so sure.
janamdo
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by janamdo »

Ok i understand for winning the game you need the best race.. it seems to me whatever race you choose the challence is how to win.
If there are weak races with no chance to win at forehand , then choose the ones who win, otherwise you will loose.l [:D]
Nanaki
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by Nanaki »

Win through attrition. Pirate income is nowhere near as big as empire income, and the pirates tech advantage is not big enough to overwhelm you in combat. It also helps to have some decent firepower at home, with defense bases and such.

Also, Quameno ships are just as large as everyone elses, only Teekans actually have a penalty to ship size.
I ate the batter of the bulge at Hans' Haus of Luftwaffles
Rhikore
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by Rhikore »

Nanaki, After slamming this post in another thread, I find it interesting that you are now working on racial balance...

"Hey Guys, Ill be working on a race mod soon, hopefully, and was wanting to address balance across governments and races.

I think the best way to do this would be to create some basically "blank" races with lets say one bonus.
Equalizing Pop Growth across all Blank races, except for the Race intended to test the efficacy of Pop Growth.

All bonuses would have to be of the same percentage or equivalent point values.

Then run tests with said races, using a special map, or editing home systems for control, providing identical environmental factors.

After a good sample size, we should be able to create a racial Bonus metric, by which we can balance the races.
This metric could also be used to balance government types.

Giving an educated guess, I would expect Monetary/Growth/Research Bonuses to generally fall into the 3 highest percentages.

In my race/government Mod, I will be attempting to balance the vanilla races, with my additions.(Governments & Races)

I kindly entreat any of you that can, to start testing."



I sincerely wish I could start working on this in depth, but Im currently involved in returning to college.
The Idea I posted is very simple really and could allow for some easy, yet definitive testing with naturally self-revealing ratios.
Furthermore I suspect that some values for certain bonuses would be so miniscule, relatively, that a necessity for a dichotomy of bonuses would arise.
Namely, Core Bonuses, (Research/Pop Growth/Economic) and Flavor Bonuses (Civilian Ship Size, Etc)


@Nanaki
With all due respect... It is not my intent to offend you or start a flame war, but you seem to come across in a rather harsh, rude and dismissive way.
Conversely, You seem to have a good amount of insight and intuition, and could be a potential boon to this community.
Take Care.


ParagonExile
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by ParagonExile »

BRB guys, I'm off to mod the Quameno and Gizureans to suck more.

Maybe I'll buff the Atuuk to be godlike as well...
Nanaki
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by Nanaki »

ORIGINAL: Rhikore
@Nanaki
With all due respect... It is not my intent to offend you or start a flame war, but you seem to come across in a rather harsh, rude and dismissive way.

You are reading my fustration in that a handful of races got nearly all of the interesting mechanics. I have not deliberately attempted to be offensive and I apologize if my words are offending to anyone.
Nanaki, After slamming this post in another thread, I find it interesting that you are now working on racial balance...

It is a sort of slow-motion work in progress. Usually when I am looking to add/remove something, I look at the lore and the victory conditions, and try to do something that would fit that race. For example, I removed the Gizuraens permanent leader as, VCs aside, the Gizureans are specifically mentioned to be a divided and tribal bunch. As a race their OPness is a three-legged stool with the permanent leader as one leg (on top of this their leader starts with 4 really good skills), high growth rates as the second leg, and the ship maintenance bonus as a third leg.

Though I still like the idea of permanent leaders so, for now, I gave it to the Zenox. Their research took a major hit when I nerfed Technocracy (they are behind Kaidians and Humans), and I really could not think of anything else to add to them without making them too similar to another race. Humans got trade/tourism bonuses to make them more well-rounded (and it fits their VCs), and Kaidian are a sort of research/military juggernaut with less raw research than Quameno but +10% military ship size and 20% war weariness reduction to make them able to fight better.

That more or less leaves the resarch-oriented races at a spot I am happy with. Quameno can still get 65% tech which is a lot but a substantial reduction from the 90% bonus it is in vanilla, and the 15% approval rating penalty means they capitalize less on that early tech lead. Kaidian can get 45%, Humans can get 40%, Zenox and Dhayut can get 35%.

Not really sure what to do with most of the insect/reptilian races though. The Gizureans were mentioned above, I added 10% research to Dhayut and 15% mining rate to Shandar but I did nothing with Boskara, Sluken, Naxxilian, or Mortalen.
I think the best way to do this would be to create some basically "blank" races with lets say one bonus.
Equalizing Pop Growth across all Blank races, except for the Race intended to test the efficacy of Pop Growth.

The problem with this is that, you also have to look into how bonuses interact with eachother. Two bonuses might have X and Y value each, but put them together and they may very well be more or less than the sum of the parts, and DW's races are incredibly complex with a huge number of different factors all interacting with eachother.

Still, I wish it were that simple!

Best we can probably hope to do is buff the weaker races some and nerf the stronger races some, probably looking at it on a case-by-case basis. It wont get perfect balance, but a reduction in strength differences between the strongest and weakest races would be enough to make me happy.
I ate the batter of the bulge at Hans' Haus of Luftwaffles
Rhikore
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by Rhikore »

I understand that you can have compounded effects from multiple bonuses and assimilation(Everyone can Assimilate), but this approach also gives us the best raw info regarding the relative efficacy of a single bonus type.
Regarding "Blank" races, I mean ONLY having said Bonus.... no Resource Bonuses, no secondaries(The "Other Bonuses" listed at the bottom), and having the same midline Characteristics values.
Having a Non-Government(No Bonuses or Penalties) would be ideal.

Regarding Simplicity:
This is pretty straight-forward the only issue would be the time and processing power required to give an adequate sample size. My Computer is somewhat old [:(]
buglepong
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by buglepong »

Losing games is super hard though, because the AI cannot effect planetary invasion.
aaatoysandmore
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by aaatoysandmore »

ORIGINAL: buglepong

Losing games is super hard though, because the AI cannot effect planetary invasion.


Yeah, I've seen that to the point I get rid of most of my army on the ground in the early game.


Here's a question that has me scratching my head. If taxes say are 19k and my total expenditures are 19k (ship and bases and army maint) how come I am getting an income every month? I keep watching my cash on hand go up and I don't understand where the extra money is coming from. I'm already getting the private taxes.
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Tcby
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RE: Best Race at start?

Post by Tcby »

Spaceports generate income. When the private sector orders ships to be built, your shipyards build them. The AI pay for this. Similarly, you get money for the trade of resources that occurs at your bases. This amount is very small to beging with though. In the top right corner of the main screen (where you see your money), this is all represented by 'Bonus Income'
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