Amazed at the german invasion response

[marion61]

TY! There's actually a magic number I've found that helps with making a successful invasion, depending on how many amphipbs your using. If your all bunched up that plays into the defenders hands. I like to open my invasions up and make you spread your forces to contain me, but hopefully not enough to seriously threaten a beachhead. The key is to find the magic number that allows your beaches to support one another, yet keep the defenders spread out enough so they cannot launch a good attack. The other thing is paratroopers. They are good at being elite speed bumps, so put them where they can slow his response to the beaches. Pick where you land carefully.

[paullus99]

So, when are we going to see a meklore / pelton AAR?

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: meklore61

TY! There's actually a magic number I've found that helps with making a successful invasion, depending on how many amphipbs your using. If your all bunched up that plays into the defenders hands. I like to open my invasions up and make you spread your forces to contain me, but hopefully not enough to seriously threaten a beachhead. The key is to find the magic number that allows your beaches to support one another, yet keep the defenders spread out enough so they cannot launch a good attack. The other thing is paratroopers. They are good at being elite speed bumps, so put them where they can slow his response to the beaches. Pick where you land carefully.

Good stuff.
Yes what I have seen so far is poor invasion planning, poor invasion spots or to many invasion beachs that can not support each other + poor use of WA's air force.

[marion61]

I probably play no where near the level of Pelton. I've heard stories from his other victims as to his level of play.[:)]

[Baelfiin]

Meklore nice job with interdiction and blasting.

[GrumpyMel]

So in my game vs the A.I., where I also invaded Brittany (around St. Malo) and got a very aggressive response from the A.I., I've taken alot of Meklore's advice about air settings....and I'm starting to do much better in terms of weakening Axis ground forces, causing Axis casualties and expanding the beach-heads. This took a TON of tweaking and micro-management with the Allied air forces (much of it counter-intuitive, at least to me) to get decent results... the defaults the computer sets up for the Air Groups are NOT well setup to do the job of suppressing the Axis invasion response.

I've had to....

- Shift a large portion of FB's over from Fighter to Bomber roles.
- Change the HQ's and bases that many groups belong to, and redo this for some Groups and Bases each turn, as the computer seems to automaticaly change their HQ ownership back to the origional for some.
- Change supply priorties for many of these bases (as many seem to get set to 0 upon opening them up).
- Change the default loadouts for probably most groups.
- Change the default altitude for almost all missions.
- Switch away from using Ground Support to Ground Attack - Unit and Ground Attack - Interdict for most groups in support of the ground forces.

These are not things which will be intuitive to a player new to the game/series... nor do I think they'll learn it anywhere except going to these forums and asking for (and hopefully getting) advice.

Note, I do think the invasion response is too aggressive and too swift...particularly for games at the easier levels against the A.I. Perhaps this is in part due to the limitations of the scale of 1 week turns and the U-Go/I-Go system. Invasions should be able to benefit from a bit of a "surprise" factor to gain some initiative, some territory and put some follow up units ashore before the response comes. This may not be for a whole week...but certainly the uncertainty and mixed intel of whether it's a "real" invasion, a "fake out" or a Dieppe style raid should have the A.I (at least on Normal levels and below) second guessing and delaying it's response for at least a day or two with some important units.... meaning the A.I. shouldn't be utilizing their FULL movement rate even before accounting for interdiction due to uncertainty in dispatching units.

I also really question whether invasions shouldn't take place in the Allied players turn (allowing them to put some follow up troops ashore and push inland a bit if local defenses aren't heavy) rather then the Axis logistics phase... which really surrenders the initiative to the Axis in terms of the invasion.

Finally, I do question whether interdiction is effective enough in slowing movement.... knocking out massive quantities of critical bridges and rail lines....shouldn't be a shrug effort in terms of the Axis ability to get a large quantity of troops to the front, quickly, in response to an invasion.... and get everything repaired in 1 turn.

At least for A.I. games I don't think the response should be so easy and aggressive and the ability to shrug off critical infrastructure damage so effective. Maybe for Human vs Human games... it makes sense, since you don't want the Axis to feel like a punching bag facing the inevitable with little it can do about it... but for the A.I., that shouldn't be a consideration. YMMV.

Edit: P.S. forgot to offer a big thank you to Meklore for the advice on air settings....it really makes a big difference.

[Smirfy]

Looking at the screenshot, that looks more 1916 than 1944. Something is drastically wrong if you can achieve unit density like that.

[Baelfiin]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Looking at the screenshot, that looks more 1916 than 1944. Something is drastically wrong if you can achieve unit density like that.

3 divisions in 100 square miles is pretty dense

[marion61]

Not all those units are divisions either, they are regiments and he's had two months to bring units in. When I landed I cut the peninsula off in two turns at Lorient cause he couldn't get enough forces in to stop me. Plus I landed in mid May and it took me until mid-July to get those 3 major ports taken, the other nazis infestations removed from my rear areas, and to have enough lift capacity so my depots start showing surplus storage. I didn't press the attack on that line, but in mid July I started a heavy bombing campaign to ruin his supplies. Then I took a couple of divisions a turn attacked his line to make him bleed and lose supply, and to not allow his units to recuperate fatigue. I'd rotate divisions in and out each turn so not the same ones were attacking him. Once I had the units I needed, that turn I flew every plane I had. In some of those hexes I was racking up well over 200k SMP usages. His trains weren't moving much and by hitting his units just behind the lines, I negate his recovering fatigue if I cause them more disruption. It's all in the planning and the AI is only a computer. I love the air game and all it's intricacies. If you use it correctly it's hard to stop The Pain Train. This is the 1st week of Aug 44 turn, when I cracked his lines.

Didn't mean to get so wordy.[;)]

[marion61]

TY! Anything to help the cause. Allied side is hard to master, and I may know some things, but I'm a long way from mastering this game.

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Looking at the screenshot, that looks more 1916 than 1944. Something is drastically wrong if you can achieve unit density like that.

3 divisions in 100 square miles is pretty dense

9 Divisions in a thirty mile deep defensive belt on a 120 mile front is fiction. Like I said if you were playing War in the West 1916 fair enough.

[Baelfiin]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Looking at the screenshot, that looks more 1916 than 1944. Something is drastically wrong if you can achieve unit density like that.

3 divisions in 100 square miles is pretty dense

9 Divisions in a thirty mile deep defensive belt on a 120 mile front is fiction. Like I said if you were playing War in the West 1916 fair enough.

30 miles deep times 120 miles long is how many square miles?
You can do the math how much frontage and depth is 1 division supposed to cover?

[paullus99]

The frontages in Normandy were pretty tight.....how many Divisions were part of Goodwood & how many miles of front did it cover?

[Smirfy]

Frontages in Normandy were tight but they certainly were not deep. How many German divisions or equivalent fought in Normandy, 25? Thats including Cherbourg btw. By the time of Goodwood some of those divisions were no bigger than a Regiment like the 21st like 12SS others had ceased to exist. German divisions could according to the Commander of transport Hoeffner move only one third their normal rate due to interdiction, Rundstedt claimed their was little point sending sending full strength divisions to Normandy as he could not supply the ones he had. As for responding to the invaision PZ Lehr lost 10% of its trucks and over 10% of its non tank tracked vechiles trying to do just that in daylight. Then I laugh at the keeping divisions on trains, not only is it gamey its totally absurd given that Germany had a chronic shortage of rolling stock (Adam Tooze Wages of Destruction) It simply could not afford to have one wagon left idle. Like I said if you want World War I you have got it if you want WWII you need to start thinking what the Allies and the Axis were actually capable off whether logistically or in the face of airpower.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


Frontages in Normandy were tight but they certainly were not deep. How many German divisions or equivalent fought in Normandy, 25? Thats including Cherbourg btw. By the time of Goodwood some of those divisions were no bigger than a Regiment like the 21st like 12SS others had ceased to exist. German divisions could according to the Commander of transport Hoeffner move only one third their normal rate due to interdiction, Rundstedt claimed their was little point sending sending full strength divisions to Normandy as he could not supply the ones he had. As for responding to the invaision PZ Lehr lost 10% of its trucks and over 10% of its non tank tracked vechiles trying to do just that in daylight. Then I laugh at the keeping divisions on trains, not only is it gamey its totally absurd given that Germany had a chronic shortage of rolling stock (Adam Tooze Wages of Destruction) It simply could not afford to have one wagon left idle. Like I said if you want World War I you have got it if you want WWII you need to start thinking what the Allies and the Axis were actually capable off whether logistically or in the face of airpower.

I guess the commanders during WW2 were smarter then many of the players.

Carlkey is a very smart player

tm.asp?m=3757755&mpage=2

most are not.

Get some skills.

I think people are looking for a I win button.

2by3 makes games that require attention to detail, if you being lazy your simply not going to get it done vs the AI.

vs humans sure your be a laugh.

read the rules and get some skills which your only going to get vs people.

[Peltonx]

skills get some.

Mastering skills

Mastery pertains to perfecting a particular skill set. To reach mastery, authors Malcolm Gladwell and Robert Greene claim that 10,000 hours of work will have to be put into training.[9]

Robert Greene (American author)#Mastery

[Peltonx]

la·zy


/ˈlâzç/


adjective

adjective: lazy; comparative adjective: lazier; superlative adjective: laziest



1. unwilling to work or use energy.

[Peltonx]

[marion61]

THAT'S ME! And it's not an unwillingness to work, it called "conservation of energy" when your older .

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: meklore61

THAT'S ME! And it's not an unwillingness to work, it called "conservation of energy" when your older .

I call it potential energy