(oh) For a Few Panzers More –loki100 vs smokindave34 (game over - Allied major victory)

[Seminole]

Good job on Italy; I personally think it's not worth it to hold Rome much past April, because you're going to want to pull troops from Italy anyway once France is invaded.

I'm very curious how the VP difference in this game develops compared to my current AAR with S2Tanker.
I'm still not sold on running away without much fight because the fighting alone generates points for the German player.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Good job on Italy; I personally think it's not worth it to hold Rome much past April, because you're going to want to pull troops from Italy anyway once France is invaded. That's easier to do along the Gothic Line.

His 8th AF strikes don't seem to have much of an escort, if any......he should have plenty of P-38 to use in that role, not sure what the story is there

ORIGINAL: Seminole

Good job on Italy; I personally think it's not worth it to hold Rome much past April, because you're going to want to pull troops from Italy anyway once France is invaded.

I'm very curious how the VP difference in this game develops compared to my current AAR with S2Tanker.
I'm still not sold on running away without much fight because the fighting alone generates points for the German player.

re Italy, this is my first game with the Axis and I know that smokindave is more than competent at the land war side. I agree that making the allies fight is basically a good idea but as I hadn't fortified Tuscany in the end he would have had a battle on open ground with decent air support - though I think he would have suffered for supply.

Without giving too much away, that line let me release XIV Pzr for deployment ***somewhere else***. I think he can break it, its a case of whether he really wants to bother.

re 8 AF, since I'm only picking out the first city raid of the turn it maybe a bit misleading. They seem well escorted but I'm still holding my own over Germany. Mainly as I have concentrated, so some places are defended just by flak, but if I catch him I can make him pay a price in the air too.

VP, given I chucked away about 80 early on for ignoring the garrison reminder, I think this is pretty normal. Most games seem to see the allies having a small positive score before the main landings in France, then they dip due to losses till they capture enough cities for the score to recover?

[loki100]

Turns 37-39: 18 March 1944 – 14 April 1944

As predictable, pattern of the game was as expected over this phase. End of March in Italy saw the Allies reach my new defensive line (the air battles are related to me beating up 15 Air).



On the subject of 15 Air, they seem to have given up bombing cows and are trying to either (a) blow up the highest glacier in Austria or (b) they really do not like Julie Andrews.



More being nosy over France, I am starting to suspect the allies have a bit of a fixation with this particular region.



Start of April actually saw a battle happen. Two in fact.



The vital beaches from Rimini to Ravenna will remain barred to British and American tourists for a while yet.

At the end of that sequence of turns, not much shift in the VP situation.

[loki100]

Turn 40: 15-21 April 1944

This turn saw a renewed effort by the Allies to seize the sun loungers and prime beach spots north of Rimini.

Initially they were politely told to wait their turn as it was far too early



But rather rudely they persisted



15 Air risked a day trip to a big city, but found the locals rather too rough. However, unusually bomber command also tried to hit the south this turn.



This turn I started to scrap some NF squadrons and redeploy the crews to day fighters. Basically I am taking relatively few NF losses and I think I'll need all the day fighters I can muster from May/June onwards.

In France, the allies continue to be very nosy



VP situation remains pretty much as expected. Doubt it will change much till they invade France.

[Q-Ball]

As Germany, I think you pretty much have to disband NFs, otherwise you end up with WAY more of those than you need, and no day fighters.

How is your Manpower Pool? How about AFVs and Vehicles?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

As Germany, I think you pretty much have to disband NFs, otherwise you end up with WAY more of those than you need, and no day fighters.

How is your Manpower Pool? How about AFVs and Vehicles?

aye, I'd do it earlier in another game, its the sort of longer term feedback loop you have play 1-2 games to understand.

From a few turns later, my manpower is 65,000 for Germany, I've got about 95% of the trucks I need (>100% in depots so good for supply movement and about 90% in units), tank numbers look ok though I suspect once the Typhoons start flying that will be less healthy.

smokindave hasn't really gone for my specialist factories - I now think hitting the Luftwaffe factories is a bit of a waste (apart maybe from the ME-262s), but I think there is a return to going for named tanks. He's also not really hit my rail depots (we're in mid-May), which I think is a mistake, I'd start flattening them in 1943, its one less demand in the build up to the invasion and causes useful hassle for the axis player.

No idea where he is going to land, I strongly suspect Picardy as a lot of his interdiction is there and it has the advantage of dislocating any German defense of the Seine as well as leaving units in Normandy etc potentially at risk.

[Q-Ball]

Having played Germany with the recent changes, I think hitting Vehicles is a good idea for the Allied player. You don't really need to him them all, but definitely the factories in Antwerp and Cologne which are really easy reaches, and the huge Opel plant in Mainz. There is a smaller Renault factory in Versailles as well, which is also an easy reach for 2Es or other planes.

Hitting TANKS is also a good idea, though I would limit to Panther and Panzer IV, as there are never enough of those. There is a Panther plant in the Ruhr, and the Panzer IV is only produced in two locations, so that's easy to take out. More players should bomb these. Hitting the Panther plants before they expand is a really good idea. There are 2 Panzer IV factories and 4 Panther ones, so that's not alot of targets to crimp German tank production.

I agree on the LW; the only aircraft factory worth bombing is the Me-262.

Have you built depots near the coast in France?

What does your Atlantic Wall look like? IMO, you should be configured to defeat paras first and foremost

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Having played Germany with the recent changes, I think hitting Vehicles is a good idea for the Allied player. You don't really need to him them all, but definitely the factories in Antwerp and Cologne which are really easy reaches, and the huge Opel plant in Mainz. There is a smaller Renault factory in Versailles as well, which is also an easy reach for 2Es or other planes.

Hitting TANKS is also a good idea, though I would limit to Panther and Panzer IV, as there are never enough of those. There is a Panther plant in the Ruhr, and the Panzer IV is only produced in two locations, so that's easy to take out. More players should bomb these. Hitting the Panther plants before they expand is a really good idea. There are 2 Panzer IV factories and 4 Panther ones, so that's not alot of targets to crimp German tank production.

I agree on the LW; the only aircraft factory worth bombing is the Me-262.

Have you built depots near the coast in France?

What does your Atlantic Wall look like? IMO, you should be configured to defeat paras first and foremost

Aye, my bombing list is now:

a) manpower-HI-train stations with Bomber Command
b) specialist targets (U-boats or VWs), HI/fuel, trucks/tanks with 8 and 15 Air

Think that gives a good balance between VP generation and creating pressure points in the German economy, especially as you can undermine the capacity of the Pzr divisions to recover if they are short of trucks and Pz IV/V

Depots in France are ready, I stripped out a lot a while back, set others just to 1 and have the ones along the channel all nice and full.

I've tried to para proof. My instinct is a successful and effective landing in Picardy is the most dangerous. Its easy to keep temp ports as long as needed as there is a long gap with no actual ports to attrite your task forces. So there, any attempt at moving off the beaches under cover of para drops has hopefully been blocked, also want to have a line of forts behind the landing hexes to avoid the mistake I made in Italy.

[loki100]

Turns 41-43: 22 April – 12 May 1944

Really by this stage of the game its all about waiting for the influx of British and American tourists.

But while we wait, its another chance to meet and greet my old chums from 15 Air.





At the same time the allies are clearly getting impatient. I can only assume they are eager to start planning their summer holidays? Not sure why, I mean there must be plenty of travel guides in the library?



In response the German transport planes are ordered to end their winter skiing break in the Alps and redeploy to bases along the Rhine.

So by early May, the VP situation is predictable.



Rumours were going around that the Germans were listening to the BBC Shipping Forecast with great interest. Probably as the only alternative was Gardener's Question Time or Money Box Live?

[loki100]

Turns 44-45: 13 – 26 May 1944

My new found obsession with the BBC weather reports continued. For T44 all looked very good ... mud.



Unfortunately the Soviets took advantage and lunged westwards.



I've clearly mismanaged the EF box. I've sent quite a lot east and only drawn out some mountain divisions. I think if I played the Axis in another PBEM I'd leave it off and work with historical arrivals and withdrawals.

Anyway, the German army in the west is mostly ready. Beach front reception areas are set up for any lost Allied soldiers and reserves are on hand in case the front line catering staff can't cope.



{as an aside, I juggled that around a bit over these turns as I wanted to catch out any opportunisitic paratroopers who might be trying to avoid the queues in the coastal resorts}

Next turn was good fun for the Luftwaffe as their old chums in 15 Air returned. However, it was Bomber Command that ran into my air defences when they tried a deep raid at Leipzig.



I think this supports my current idea that the best approach in defending Germany is to abandon some areas and really concentrate around particular targets. When you catch the allies you can do substantial damage.

As an aide to this, must say the new on map data for the location of your airforce and how to move it around is excellent.



The German army went to bed on 26 May re-assured by the BBC that mud was going to persist.



Even that there was a possibility of heavy rain. While this might delay the start of the tourist season it was felt that some sacrifices just have to be made.

[Seminole]

I've clearly mismanaged the EF box. I've sent quite a lot east and only drawn out some mountain divisions. I think if I played the Axis in another PBEM I'd leave it off and work with historical arrivals and withdrawals.

Are you actively managing the units into refit in the EF box each turn, or have you ignored it?
Am I reading it correctly that you have 254 divisions in the east and 254 of them are on the line?

About EF box scoring, does it only start if the EF line is 2 hexes away from historical? Do I understand correctly that each turn the lines is 6 hexes beyond historical the Allies score another 30 points on you? That could be a nasty snowball!
I assume you can't push it back east and have to just wait for historical to catch up to the current line at best if you get stability rolls, correct?

Lastly, are the Stable/Fluid/Critical Front Values derived independently in each game from date/weather/soviet potential/etc., or are they are fixed like the historical front line?

Anyone have a table of the historical front line hex value / turn?

Being in the dark on these factors makes it kind of hard to plan assets on the early play throughs.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I've clearly mismanaged the EF box. I've sent quite a lot east and only drawn out some mountain divisions. I think if I played the Axis in another PBEM I'd leave it off and work with historical arrivals and withdrawals.

Are you actively managing the units into refit in the EF box each turn, or have you ignored it?
Am I reading it correctly that you have 254 divisions in the east and 254 of them are on the line?

About EF box scoring, does it only start if the EF line is 2 hexes away from historical? Do I understand correctly that each turn the lines is 6 hexes beyond historical the Allies score another 30 points on you? That could be a nasty snowball!
I assume you can't push it back east and have to just wait for historical to catch up to the current line at best if you get stability rolls, correct?

Lastly, are the Stable/Fluid/Critical Front Values derived independently in each game from date/weather/soviet potential/etc., or are they are fixed like the historical front line?

Anyone have a table of the historical front line hex value / turn?

Being in the dark on these factors makes it kind of hard to plan assets on the early play throughs.

I think you've spotted one mistake I've clearly made - no I've not looked after refit for the EF units so I guess I may have the formations but they are weak. Ah well, that may explain why my manpower etc pools are pretty full.

Each advance is a one off hit on your VPs. So if it moves from 4 ahead of normal to 6 then you lose the VPs for those 2 hexes but its not a per turn loss.

I guess that some of the extra pts I've gained for garrisons may be a bit of an offset (as my divisions in the west may be a bit stronger than standard).

As to the rest, I'm really not that sure.

In part this is why I think I'd now opt to leave it off. I'm happy that the on map western army drains away to the east over the game and I guess I'd be content to let historical flows handle this rather than try to work out an optimum management. Anyway, next turn I get back, I'll address the refit issue.

[Seminole]

I think you've spotted one mistake I've clearly made - no I've not looked after refit for the EF units so I guess I may have the formations but they are weak.

From the first turn I make sure to refit any units that are of course unready, and beyond that I start refitting units that are below 60 morale. For armored formations I like to rest anything below 70, and once that is reached try to get everyone up towards 75 - the divisions at least.
If you haven't looked at it for over half a year you probably have a lot of mauled units contributing nothing on the line.

Each advance is a one off hit on your VPs. So if it moves from 4 ahead of normal to 6 then you lose the VPs for those 2 hexes but its not a per turn loss.

Ok, that's a lot less scary. I guess I need to click through a game to chart the historical progress and try to understand whether the level of demand is relatively static per turn/season, or if there is too many variables in play to worry about that aspect. What I'd been considering was shipping away most of my panzer reserves in the first winter to try and build a 'gap' on historical, so I had some cushion. As luck would have it I found use for my panzers whilst they were still on trains, and one week away from being shipped east!

[Joel Billings]

You only lose points on the first turn of each month. That's when the historical front line is adjusted to the west.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I think you've spotted one mistake I've clearly made - no I've not looked after refit for the EF units so I guess I may have the formations but they are weak.

From the first turn I make sure to refit any units that are of course unready, and beyond that I start refitting units that are below 60 morale. For armored formations I like to rest anything below 70, and once that is reached try to get everyone up towards 75 - the divisions at least.
If you haven't looked at it for over half a year you probably have a lot of mauled units contributing nothing on the line.

Yep, its a real mess, Pzr divisions very weak and about 40% of the infantry divisions unready. So a massive process of sending fresh units east ... they've been lazing around France drinking champagne so they can do some work ... and trying to redeem the situation as best I can.

*ahem*

ORIGINAL: Seminole

Each advance is a one off hit on your VPs. So if it moves from 4 ahead of normal to 6 then you lose the VPs for those 2 hexes but its not a per turn loss.

Ok, that's a lot less scary. I guess I need to click through a game to chart the historical progress and try to understand whether the level of demand is relatively static per turn/season, or if there is too many variables in play to worry about that aspect. What I'd been considering was shipping away most of my panzer reserves in the first winter to try and build a 'gap' on historical, so I had some cushion. As luck would have it I found use for my panzers whilst they were still on trains, and one week away from being shipped east!

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

You only lose points on the first turn of each month. That's when the historical front line is adjusted to the west.

thanks for the clarification ... was sure that each gain over the norm triggered a one off VP loss - and of course brings the end of the war that bit nearer [&:]

[loki100]

Turn 46: 27 May – 2 June 1944

Well all I'll say is never trust the BBC. Clear skies meant the expected tourist invasion happened before all the new hotels were ready.



apparently they were pretty annoyed, and wrecked a few places in their search for accommodation



Even in Italy


[1]

Anyway here's the VP situation as the game moves into its decisive phase.



In response I decided to gamble on a one-off (I doubt I can sustain this) attempt by the luftwaffe to disrupt the flow of supplies across the Channel. Some hexes are now contested but I doubt its enough to make any real impact?



Picking up on the discussion around the previous turn, here's some of the EF OOB. I think my mistake in not using the refit status is pretty clear. Not shown but a lot of infantry divisions are 'unready'.



And for next turn ... more clear weather.



[1] Interesting confirmation of the view that while individual mountain regiments look incredibly strong, in reality they are easy enough to push out of a hex.

[Seminole]

I'm amazed at the high morale unit on most of your armor/mech formations. I wonder if that a an outcome of having so many divisions (even if many were unready).

[1] Interesting confirmation of the view that while individual mountain regiments look incredibly strong, in reality they are easy enough to push out of a hex.

Well, it was 3k men vs 105k men, and he obliterated your level 3 forts, and apparently gave you a dozen or so unit bombings on top of that...

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I'm amazed at the high morale unit on most of your armor/mech formations. I wonder if that a an outcome of having so many divisions (even if many were unready).

[1] Interesting confirmation of the view that while individual mountain regiments look incredibly strong, in reality they are easy enough to push out of a hex.

Well, it was 3k men vs 105k men, and he obliterated your level 3 forts, and apparently gave you a dozen or so unit bombings on top of that...

I think it was Terje43 in a WiTE AAR who managed to reduce one of his own Pzr divisions to a single tank ... it did though have really impressive morale and experience levels [;)]. Guess the crew must have become convinced of their personal invincibility.

aye, there is good reason for the victory but in a way that is quite important if any allied players are relying too much on apparent cv in determining their attacks. Up front that was 1.6-1, but the reality is a regiment can't hold as the rest of the combat model means they are overwhelmed.

the loss of the fort is a bit misleading, its an easy misinterpretation as the combat report shows the final drop (after you have been bounced from the hex ... which erases the entire value), I'd guess the actual fighting was with a level 2 fort. Also in this case, doubt air power as such had much impact.

[Seminole]

the loss of the fort is a bit misleading, its an easy misinterpretation as the combat report shows the final drop (after you have been bounced from the hex ... which erases the entire value), I'd guess the actual fighting was with a level 2 fort. Also in this case, doubt air power as such had much impact.

Thanks, that's nice to know. I was actually surprised at the drop given his relative dearth of engineer support displayed.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

the loss of the fort is a bit misleading, its an easy misinterpretation as the combat report shows the final drop (after you have been bounced from the hex ... which erases the entire value), I'd guess the actual fighting was with a level 2 fort. Also in this case, doubt air power as such had much impact.

Thanks, that's nice to know. I was actually surprised at the drop given his relative dearth of engineer support displayed.

a good way to see this is to run a combat at speed 5 (maybe 4 will do). Its pretty boring but you learn a lot about the combat engine (can always press escape when you've had enough). What you'll see is the incremental destruction of the fort first by heavy artillery, then by engineers before the actual close combat. If you win, this'll show how the final step (retreat) clears the fort, so the combat image is a bit misleading.

The info in WiTW is far better than in WiTE, so there is less need to do this if all you want to understand is what weapons really work, but its still useful.

In WiTE, especially with the mid/late war Soviets, you can often clear two fortification levels before the attack goes in (once you have artillery and rocket divisions the amount of firepower is truely impressive), to which can then be added a lot disruptions. Its another reason why you can't just play on the basis of pre-attack notional combat values.