Japanese challenge

[juntoalmar]

I’m sorry to interrupt this discussion, as the level of my comment is definitely lower. But, as a kind of newbie, I don’t understand the purpose of this polish setup.

In my logic, I have always tried to protect Warsaw from the german attack, thus creating a protective ring around the capital (with two units per hex when possible to make it difficult to the germans). To attack Warsaw with good chances you need a few adjacent hexes to do it, so Poland just try to prevent this to happen.

The setup shown here, seems to me that will make the 1-4 and 3-x polish units to be destroyed easily in the first impulse, and then giving clear path to attack Warsaw from as many hexes as wanted from Germany.

I know I’m missing something, that’s why I ask. What’s wrong with “my” approach to Poland defence? and what’s the strategy about the setup shown here?

BTW, I play without divisions. It may be make a big difference to the strategy to be used.

Thanks!

[Jagdtiger14]

Playing without div's must be a very different game...I didn't know that was an option. I'm looking forward to playing with unlimited breakdown.

Div's are normally used as soak off, but another use for them is to give the defender a better chance of holding on to an important hex when triple stacked (takes three losses instead of two). That's why I like to put the Polish Div in Lodz or Warsaw.

Orm will have to speak to what his Polish strategy is, and I'm very curios about the Polish Div. placement. I cant see the German units, but its possible it can be over-run? I forgot if movement points have something to do with it.

I might be missing what your defense proposal is Juntoalmar, but if you have Lodz and Warsaw double stacked, and a ring of units (the rest of them (3)) on the outside, then will they not also be eliminated easily on the first turn? Having them in cities at least gives them a city bonus if not attacked by an HQ.

In my Polish set up I have a corp in Danzig. Its unlikely the Germans will waste their time with it...besides extending the ZOC into East Prussia, it also helps the DD Flotilla to escape.

[Orm]

Orm will have to speak to what his Polish strategy is, and I'm very curios about the Polish Div. placement. I cant see the German units, but its possible it can be over-run?

The division is there because it can not be overrun in that hex and it helps to stop Lodz from being attacked from more than two hexes on the surprise impulse.


Cut from RAC: 11.11.6 Overruns
....
You can only overrun land units that are in a clear or desert hex that is not a city hex (ports are OK).

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

I’m sorry to interrupt this discussion, as the level of my comment is definitely lower. But, as a kind of newbie, I don’t understand the purpose of this polish setup.

In my logic, I have always tried to protect Warsaw from the german attack, thus creating a protective ring around the capital (with two units per hex when possible to make it difficult to the germans). To attack Warsaw with good chances you need a few adjacent hexes to do it, so Poland just try to prevent this to happen.

The setup shown here, seems to me that will make the 1-4 and 3-x polish units to be destroyed easily in the first impulse, and then giving clear path to attack Warsaw from as many hexes as wanted from Germany.

I know I’m missing something, that’s why I ask. What’s wrong with “my” approach to Poland defence? and what’s the strategy about the setup shown here?

BTW, I play without divisions. It may be make a big difference to the strategy to be used.

Thanks!

Nothing wrong with your approach in defending Poland.

My setup was just a variant created to do the same thing, although a bit differently. So not to make it to easy on Germany with the same setup every time. And more fun with some change from time to time.

The idea with the setup is that the two Polish 5-3 Corps East of Krakow is outside German ground strike range so they can't be ground struck (put in a forest hex if I s missed a bomber then it is at least halved). During the first Allied impulse the two units will march into Warsaw to defend it. There is no way (as far as I can see) that Germany can stop this land movement. The downside is that this requires CW to save two land moves for the Poles during the first impulse. The upside is that the Warsaw defenders may not be ground struck on the surprise and might therefore reduce the odds on the attack on Warsaw.

The units in Lodz are placed to defend the city until they are destroyed.

The other units are placed in a forest hex or a city so they can not be overrun. Their purpose is to stop Germany from simply marching into Warsaw and from attacking Lodz from more than two hexes. Same purpose as your ring although it is further from the city and Germany can opt to not attack them all and still get to the Lodz and Warsaw.

In short: The purpose of the setup is so that the Warsaw defenders are not disorganized during the surprise.

Edit: If this defence was used without the division then Lodz could be attacked from three hexes on the surprise. This, I thought, would make things to easy for Germany.

[Jagdtiger14]

The other units are placed in a forest hex or a city so they can not be overrun. Their purpose is to stop Germany from simply marching into Warsaw and from attacking Lodz from more than two hexes

This is a Fall Weiss set up by the Germans. No need to hurry. They easily destroy the outlying corps (other than the protected 5-3's), then the next impulse have an easy attack on Lodz (both units flipped), the third Axis impulse Warsaw is surrounded.

The question is, with average die rolls (2d10), what might the Germans lose (or get disorganized)? Will the Germans have GS capability after the surprise impulse for Warsaw? Will they need it?

I would not expose the German ENG to loss in Poland, that is needed in Belgium/France.

Also, with this German set up, what is the surprise impulse GS threat vs Warsaw?...an extended range 2 strength (becomes 1 with two rolls)...unless air is hiding under a stack?...the 4 strength Stuka can be put OOS.

I like the Polish DD Flotilla and hope to save it by not having it over-run.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

The other units are placed in a forest hex or a city so they can not be overrun. Their purpose is to stop Germany from simply marching into Warsaw and from attacking Lodz from more than two hexes

This is a Fall Weiss set up by the Germans. No need to hurry. They easily destroy the outlying corps (other than the protected 5-3's), then the next impulse have an easy attack on Lodz (both units flipped), the third Axis impulse Warsaw is surrounded.

The question is, with average die rolls (2d10), what might the Germans lose (or get disorganized)? Will the Germans have GS capability after the surprise impulse for Warsaw? Will they need it?

I would not expose the German ENG to loss in Poland, that is needed in Belgium/France.

Also, with this German set up, what is the surprise impulse GS threat vs Warsaw?...an extended range 2 strength (becomes 1 with two rolls)...unless air is hiding under a stack?...the 4 strength Stuka can be put OOS.

Do your proposed defence survive your own timetable? Does it cause any German losses? I am not sure I understand the purpose for this discussion. Extraneous asked for a Polish setup and I provided one. No one had bothered to do so. Make a save of your setup and upload it and then Extraneous has another variant to select from.

If you want to discuss the perfect Polish setup I suggest you post your ideas on the AI for Poland thread so Steve, and peskpesk, get some assistance with creating the AI.

I am not saying that you are wrong. I looked at putting the Stuka OOS and I preferred not to. And if the Stuka is not OOS then there is a 4 strength Stuka within range of Warsaw that is likely to disorganize any units in Warsaw. Hence I made this variant.

[juntoalmar]

Thank you all for the comments. I see some interesting points that I didn’t consider before:

- Keeping ground forces away from german bombers to avoid the surprise impulse bonus
- Keeping ground forces in cities and forest to enjoy benefits from it
- Keeping polish air units out of sight to avoid being disorganised

Wouldn’t be harder for the german to attack two 3-4 units stacked together in clear terrain, compared to attack them individually in a city/forest? I understand that, in this particular setup, they are deployed in this way to avoid german troops to get to Lodz in the first impulse. But I was just thinking of my setup.

[Jagdtiger14]

Do your proposed defence survive your own timetable? Does it cause any German losses? I am not sure I understand the purpose for this discussion. Extraneous asked for a Polish setup and I provided one. No one had bothered to do so. Make a save of your setup and upload it and then Extraneous has another variant to select from.

Sorry Orm, but I do not yet own MWiF, so I cant save and send anything. However, I did write it down in post #39 above.

As I wrote previously, the time table is irrelevant since this is Fall Weiss and Germany (I suppose since I cant see everything) has enough to deal with Poland the first turn.

I think having a stronger defense of Lodz and Warsaw would be more likely to cause German losses.

The purpose for this discussion I thought was debating a Polish set up with this German set up.

Is Steve working on an AI? I thought that was put on hold.

[Orm]

I suggest that you upload a zipped save of one of your Polish setups then I can easier comment on it. Or post a picture.

[Orm]

Sorry Orm, but I do not yet own MWiF, so I cant save and send anything.

That is to bad. [:(] Although I can understand why this is the case.

Is Steve working on an AI? I thought that was put on hold.

As an optimist I think Steve will continue his work on the AI.

The purpose for this discussion I thought was debating a Polish set up with this German set up.

Fair enough. [:)]

I think having a stronger defense of Lodz and Warsaw would be more likely to cause German losses.

I have 8 points in Lodz and 10 points in Warsaw. I do not see how that could be made stronger. Do you suggest that, in my setup, Lodz should have stronger defence and Warsaw weaker?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

And it can be easily solved moving just a div (or the weaker corps to the space between them and Konigsberg. In all, I guess it can benefit the GE Player.

Ultimately it really doesn't matter how the Germans set up since this is a Fall Weiss and the Pols under that circumstance should fold on the first turn.

As the Pols, you want to cost the Germans a unit or two or three. Delay doesn't really matter for the Pols under a Fall Weiss.

As the Pols I would still set up to force the Germans to lose the Stuka's surprise GS and one lose one German unit to being flipped due to re-establishing the supply from Konigsberg.

My set up under these circumstances:

3-3 INF in Danzig.
3-4 CAV two hexes to the NE of Warsaw.
4-4 INF in Poznan
5-3x2 plus INF div. in Lodz
4-3 INF plus HQ in Warsaw.

Since I cant see below the top units, I might switch out the 5-3 and 4-3 (Lodz-Warsaw) and maybe put the INF div in Warsaw instead of Lodz.

Naval:

As Orm has them.

Air:

As Orm has them.

Here is a picture of this setup.

[Jagdtiger14]

Wow, Germans are really bringing it...although I would rather have INF than MECH/ARM.

Thank you for setting up my suggestion. I'll probably get this game at the next sale (July 4?).

It could be that since I play with 2d10 and you 1d10 that we could be looking at things a bit differently.

I like to keep the Polish HQ in Warsaw since Lodz is traditionally attacked prior to Warsaw. Depending on what odds the Germans have vs Lodz and if they have a serious GS available the 2nd Axis impulse vs Warsaw determines if I use it to support Lodz (and of course assuming its still face up after the surprise impulse).

Now that I see what the Germans have, in my set up I would place the Polish FTR NW of the Polish bomber (out of range of being over-run), and put the INF div in Warsaw instead. As for the div, I look to move it into Lodz on the Polish impulse if it looks like the right thing to do and its still face up.

So I guess the difference in defending the two cities is that I "reserve" the HQ in Warsaw rather than the front line in Lodz, and I use the INF div in their defense (a bit more difficult to take a city with three units in it than just two).

[Orm]

This is with the 2d10 table and I made my setup with this in mind.

But I suspect that my reluctance of using the division defend in Lodz or Warsaw is because of the 1d10 table. A disorganized division is another +1 on both combat tables and that is a major difference. No way the extra division is worth it with a extra +1 on the 1d10 table.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

Thank you all for the comments. I see some interesting points that I didn’t consider before:

- Keeping ground forces away from german bombers to avoid the surprise impulse bonus
- Keeping ground forces in cities and forest to enjoy benefits from it
- Keeping polish air units out of sight to avoid being disorganised

Wouldn’t be harder for the german to attack two 3-4 units stacked together in clear terrain, compared to attack them individually in a city/forest? I understand that, in this particular setup, they are deployed in this way to avoid german troops to get to Lodz in the first impulse. But I was just thinking of my setup.

The number one problem for the Poles is that they have more border hexes than they have corps sized units to defend them. So the Poles are spread out pretty thin. Of course that is even more true when some of their best units are placed in Lodz and Warsaw. Control of those two cities by the Germans means Poland is conquered.

The result is that the Poles try to prevent the Germans from getting good attacks on Lodz and Warsaw on the first impulse [when rivers do not affect attacks] by placing other units in the way of the advancing units.

However, when setting up the Polish units, it is crucial to avoid being overrun. [The corollary to that is that the Germans need to set up their units to at least threaten to overrun hexes.] A single 3 strength Polish unit in clear terrain is in danger of being overrun. But if you put it in a forest or city, then there is no danger of being overrun. Units in clear hexes that can be put out of supply are in danger of being overrun: disorganize them, put them OOS, and they have a strength of only 1 or 3.

So, the 3 strength units are placed on the border in either cities or forest hexes to prevent the Germans from getting more than 1 or 2 hexes on Lodz and Warsaw. Rarely are units placed in clear terrain unless they are in a city.

The division sized unit has no ZOC into adjacent hexes, so it value as a blocking unit is limited. Poznan can work for the division if a corps is placed in the hex two hexes SE of Poznan.

For the Germans I like to have two stacks capable of overrunning; for example: 18 factors = 8 ARM + 7 INF + 3 ART, and 7 ARM + 7 INF + 4 ART. I place one stack in East Prussia and the other stack near Breslau. The Allied player would have to screw up the Polish setup in order for them to overrun any units during movement. But the threat limits the choices the Poles have for achieving a good defensive front line.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Well, that's true, they could although tat would use two of the already insufficient polish corps, probably being an advantage in general terms, I mean those could be easily killed in clear (and fine weather) and would make the cities even weaker, or if everybody or most of the rest concentrates in Lodz and Warsaw, it would allow fast advance with few or no resistance for German units in the Center and South.

And it can be easily solved moving just a div (or the weaker corps to the space between them and Konigsberg.

In all, I guess it can benefit the GE Player.

The main purpose, in my humble opinion, of putting the Germans in East Prussia out of supply is to reduce the effect of the surprise ground strike.

Well, that's is a very good point. However, what was said before is that thet two stacks would be OOS, and I countered that land units no, or could be easily solved.

Of course ground strike is previous and I hadn't thought about that.

My deployment is pretty similar to yours, except for two things:

- I didn't think of the "trick" of leaving Warsaw empty and fill it later. I had thought of Brest-Litovsk but they could be bombed from East Prussia...

- I always save the HQ. That HQ is much more important than any shitty militia the GE will spend trying to take Poland and not only in BP but also in the possibility to have an extra HQ, the UK only has two at first and most of the game I would appreciate 1 extra HQ. You have France, Egypt, India, Northern Africa, possible invasions and London for restoring planes.

Many times I save the div and the planes as well, as I said, Poland usually falls in the second impulse and the GE losses use to be 1 or 2 cheap corps, and nothing you do will change this, so...

[paulderynck]

Agreed, I like to keep the HQ, the Div and get the pilots via internment, since Poland will go down anyway. I'd only think twice about it if Germany was trying a "France first" in which case Poland may hold out long enough to get her Reserve units and perhaps then the "worst winter on record" might come early.

[Joseignacio]

Yesterday I was speaking of this with a friend of mine and he said it was not in the RAW7 the possibility of interning the HQ, div, ..., that I have been playing with.

I couldn't find any reference except for getting them into Poland before the USSR invades Eastern Poland.

Were we doing it right? or, where is this in the rules? [:)]

[Orm]

Here is the relevant rule. Note that there is one more internment rule concerning aircraft rebasing into neutral minor country.

Cut from RAC:

19.5.1 Eastern Poland
The USSR can exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights to occupy eastern Poland during any Allied land
movement step. However, it can only exercise those rights if Poland has not been conquered.
You exercise those rights by moving a land unit into any hex of eastern Poland (ignore any units there).
Once you exercise those rights, the part of Poland to the east of the partition line becomes conquered by the
Soviets. Move any Axis units there to the nearest Axis controlled hex they can stack in. Any Allied (except Soviet)
units there are destroyed. They are removed from the game (internment) until Germany and the USSR are at war, at
which point they may be added to the Commonwealth force pool if the Commonwealth player so desires.
[Clarification. Polish air units and their pilots are interned if they are in eastern Poland when the USSR occupies it
- Dec. 29, 2007.]
Axis units may not cross the partition line after the USSR exercises its rights unless Germany and the USSR
are at war.
Anytime after 1941, the Commonwealth can add a randomly chosen Polish MOT and MECH to its force
pools if, at that time:
• The USSR has exercised its rights under the pact; and
• Poland has been conquered by the Axis; and
• The USSR and Germany are at war.
All the Polish units covered by this rule are treated as British for all purposes.

[Joseignacio]

Yes, I knew the planes one from before, and I had found the one you remark, it's just I didn't think it was that one, because you need to move them to Eastern Poland before Poland surrenders, which could be dangerous in some situation.

We used to intern the HQ and the div usually to the Baltic states, or Rumania, which seems to have been wrong.

Thanks for your answer.

[paulderynck]

Why move them there? They can set up there. The planes especially - if their pilots are marked for internment (as opposed to interment [;)]) - need to be 7 movement point away from any German 6-moving armor or that darn SP AT.