SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22

[Lubaru]

ORIGINAL: Cik

simultaneous target engagement capability
good range
reasonable mobility
probably the best self-defence capability in the world
scalable, capable of integration with many other recent russian SAM/SHORAD systems (sa-15/11/17)

what made the SA-6 revolutionary over the SA-2? it's just better, basically. way better.

edit: i should clarify that to me it's not really "revolutionary"
the SA-2 was revolutionary; it changed how both defender and attacker operated in enormous and far-reaching ways. the S-400 is just the S-300 but better, which was just the SA-6 but better, etc. it's capabilities are expanded, but it's still basically an area denial long range radar SAM system, cast in the mold of the SA-2. that doesn't mean that it's bad, or nonthreatening, but it does mean that it doesn't really qualify as revolutionary, imo.

simultaneous target engagement capability
good range
reasonable mobility
probably the best self-defence capability in the world
scalable, capable of integration with many other recent russian SAM/SHORAD systems (sa-15/11/17)

Yes I agree with your analysis.Those attributes really only proves it is on a par with other contemporary systems. ie Patriot has good range can simultaneously track and engage multiple targets, etc. But the question I have is not whether or not it is a good system, but what distinguishes it and makes it a world beating system and I have scoured the internet and nothing (excluding the usual hype) in the way of real data or verifiable info that can be compared side by side with other systems is available. My gut feeling is that its capability is really about like Patriot or HQ9, but certainly not world beating to the degree of its reputation.

[Cik]

it's better than the competitors at all the things it's good at*

*this may not actually be true, it's hard to say. conventional wisdom says that it's the best at the things that make a contemporary SAM system good, such as all of those things i listed.

[Lubaru]

Good point

[Lubaru]

ORIGINAL: Cik

it's better than the competitors at all the things it's good at*

*this may not actually be true, it's hard to say. conventional wisdom says that it's the best at the things that make a contemporary SAM system good, such as all of those things i listed.

Would be interesting to simulate in Command a modern NATO attack against Patriot, then same attack against S-400, and then HQ9 and compare the results. If they are not kinda in the same ball park statistically that would be interesting and somewhat surprising.

[wild_Willie2]

Getting back to the OP's question about Sa-21a/b systems engaging stealthy targets from more then 100 miles.

The OP was most likely referring to the Crimean Rivers scenario where the Sa-21a/b system is engaging F-22's and JASM's from more then 100 miles. The Sa-21 can engage these targets because they get spotted by other systems (most likely the IRST systems on the Su-35 fighters) and then the S-400 simply just lobs long range missiles at them, often with deadly results. From the front, the radar on the SU-35 can spot your stealth fighters from around 25 miles but its far worse from the rear where you can be seen by the IRST sensor from 90+ miles. So circling withing 90 miles of a Su-35 is just asking to get a long range S-400 missile up your tailpipe. IRL, the Su-35 does not have this capacity as it doesn't have a datalink, but due to game mechanics this works in game (It was actually big news when a cutting edge F-35 managed to guide a SM-6 missile to an air target just a few months ago). The trick to avoiding this is to absolutely 100% kill all Su-35's, within 45 degrees of pointing their nose at you, within 90 miles before turning your backside at them (hint, sneak up on individual fighters, launch 4 AMRAAM's at them from max range and then keep on flying toward the target at 350 knts until you kill it).

There are several way to defeat this scenario, but these all more or less center on two phases:

A) kill OR distract the patrolling Su-35 fighters so your weapons can hit their targets more or less unseen.
B) Have the S-400 systems expend their missiles so you can engage the patrolling Su-35 fighters much more efficient.

There are several ways to achieve these goals. The most easy way I found for the S-400 to expend most of its missiles is to spam MALD's at it until it runs dry. If you use all your ready MALD loaded carrier and land based AC for this at the beginning of the scenario (including the B-52's), you can achieve this goal within 5 hours of the beginning of the scenario. After this, you can go Su-35 hunting with your F-22's and F-35's until a decent dent has been made in this population. To finish things up, have a 120 tomahawk missile strike come in from the south west to distract the remaining Su-35's while your B1's unleash a decapitation JASM strike at the Crimean based runways and radar systems FROM THE NORTH. You can then finish things up with either with a massive follow on B1 strike from the north 20 hours later or by equipping the F35's with JASM's and by striking from the south east.
Mix in the non stealthy storm shadow equipped fighters from the west (either to distract the Su-35's or if these are already decimated, to take out more targets) however you like.

I generally loose only about 10 AC during this scenario if you use these tactics (mostly F-15 and F-16 fighters in air to air combat over the Med and 2-3 stealth fighters while intercepting PAK sweeps).

W.

[Kitchens Sink]

I should probably revisit and revise that scenario. With all the recent System and Database changes, it could probably use some tweaking....like some random events so repeat players will still be challenged [:D]

But I do have a question, what were your results/losses the FIRST time you played it..before you figured out the tactics with the Su-35's and decoys?

[wild_Willie2]

Pff, cant remember precisely but I think it was in the range of 30-35 AC or so lost, mostly to the S-400 and the Mig-31 and PAK sweeps (see link). I actually had to restart it several times because I did not know if I could still win with those losses. I really like that scenario btw and have replayed it about eight or nine times by now.

You really outdid yourself on this one KS.

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[Kitchens Sink]

Thanks, glad you are enjoying it.

One BIG mistake I made was to have all of the PAK-FA's blaring out their radars, shouting "I'm right here!" I think having most of them in stealth mode would make a big difference.

[wild_Willie2]

Yes, that would make things a bit more complicated indeed. But I generally detect the PAK's on radar before they cross the Turkish coastline. The problem is that these things are really good at evading AMRAAM's and they carry a lot of weapons to shoot back with, especially at intermediate and close range...

[peterc100248]

I have done extensive play testing using the little "Growler vs Growler" scenario of the SA-21 vs various aircraft and tactics. Here are some of my notes:

1. The EA-18G NGJ is extremely effective (in CMANO) at preventing launch of the SA-21 system when using active jamming and at close range to the missile. I'll let you do your own measurements on my little scenario.

2. The secret to attacking any SAM system is altitude. The higher you are, the easier it is to get shot down. Take a look at the physics involved in detection with radar (horizon + 10%) or visual IR systems (horizon depending on atmospheric conditions) here:

http://www.qsl.net/w4sat/horizon.htm

This is just a simple calculator that allows you to put in varying heights for antennas to "see" each other. Set SAM height on one and aircraft height on the other. The results are absolute - beyond those distances requires OTH targeting or some other system at high altitude.

3. In this scenario, you can simulate a very near future strategy to defeat the missile by flying the USAF F-35s at MIN altitude and terrain following. They are loaded with JASSMs. Bring the aircraft to 200 ft AGL and launch. The missiles fly at 60 ft AGL. There is very little defense against such an attack without optical/laser systems. (IRST does not work well when the target aspect is head on)

Forgot - Run the scenario without the EA-18Gs and see the difference. One thing to consider. I looked high and low and cannot find a single real-world report of an authenticated SA-21 being launched in a combat setting. Until then, much of what is known about it may be correct, more likely not so good. The real world problem is far more complex.

Here is the little test scenario:

[wild_Willie2]

Yes, you can approach a radar unseen by flying beneath it's radar horizon and stealthy cruise missiles are about the only way to take down an SA-21a/b system. Although put some Sa-22's around it and have some fighters flying CAP above it and things get a whole lot more difficult

[Filitch]

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2
Yes, you can approach a radar unseen by flying beneath it's radar horizon and stealthy cruise missiles are about the only way to take down an SA-21a/b system. Although put some Sa-22's around it and have some fighters flying CAP above it and things get a whole lot more difficult

And add 55Zh6M Nebo M suite (#1848, #1847, #1847 in CMANO DB) to radar support, as in real life [:)]
Modern war is not a one-on-one fight, it is a war of systems. Attacks ACs, EW ACs, air dominance fighters, AWACS ACs from one side and SAMs, radars, EW systems and interceptors ACs from other.

[peterc100248]

ORIGINAL: Filitch

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2
Yes, you can approach a radar unseen by flying beneath it's radar horizon and stealthy cruise missiles are about the only way to take down an SA-21a/b system. Although put some Sa-22's around it and have some fighters flying CAP above it and things get a whole lot more difficult

And add 55Zh6M Nebo M suite (#1848, #1847, #1847 in CMANO DB) to radar support, as in real life [:)]
Modern war is not a one-on-one fight, it is a war of systems. Attacks ACs, EW ACs, air dominance fighters, AWACS ACs from one side and SAMs, radars, EW systems and interceptors ACs from other.

Very true. The only countermeasure to NOE target approaches though is still antenna height. The horizon is the horizon - only by extending your electromagnetic horizon can you spot targets at very low altitudes. That demands antenna height. Even OTH systems have "blind spots" in that HF signals bounce off the ionosphere differently all the time. Kind of like skipping a stone on a pond. You can't tell exactly when the stone will finally stop skipping across the water.

The SA-21 falls rather easily when alone. I have been able to take out the missile systems with as few as 5 JASSM's using the 3 EA-18Gs.

[kevinkins]

Couple of questions: are you guys experimenting against a full battalion of the S400 system or something less? Additionally, can the tactics detailed above be applied to the computer player following a scenario designer's mission sequencing? In other words, a hands off attack.

Kevin

[Dysta]

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

Couple of questions: are you guys experimenting against a full battalion of the S400 system or something less? Additionally, can the tactics detailed above be applied to the computer player following a scenario designer's mission sequencing? In other words, a hands off attack.

Kevin

I presumed the topic is about SA-21A/B (missiles used by S-400), rather than an entire system involved with Panstir-S and/or Vitayz (S-350E) accompanied.

Otherwise, there will not be so many questions about jamming.

[kevinkins]

I am interested in the entire system. Or, more specifically, what's been installed in Kaliningrad.

Kevin

[peterc100248]

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

Couple of questions: are you guys experimenting against a full battalion of the S400 system or something less? Additionally, can the tactics detailed above be applied to the computer player following a scenario designer's mission sequencing? In other words, a hands off attack.

Kevin

Sorry it took a while to reply. I have used the tactics I developed in the little Growler vs Growler scenario in a few other scenarios that have several SA-21 batteries. Nothing against much larger scale stuff.

In my opinion, the strike AI, while excellent, is really not capable of handling such intensive tactics successfully. I ingress at MIN altitude using terrain following techniques, which yields 80 ft AGL over the ocean, pop up momentarily to 200 ft AGL to launch the JASSMs, then immediately return to MIN and TFR for egress. I may have missed that in the mission editor, but then maybe someone could show how to accomplish that reliably.

[Dysta]

I will spend some time on multi-SAM defense test, with intensive surges or something to make holes at them.

My estimation is the extra Pantsir and Vitzya will not make much of different, because either is too short ranged to intercept JASSM, or those supplemental radars are jammed.

[Cik]

i'm interested in the results. pushing on the OODA loop instead of the self-defense capability is certainly a new and... interesting strategy.

[kevinkins]

I ingress at MIN altitude using terrain following techniques, which yields 80 ft AGL over the ocean, pop up momentarily to 200 ft AGL to launch the JASSMs

Thanks, I will give that a try both by hand and hands off (Mission editor + lua as needed).

Kevin

Edit: Those manpads are very pesky!