Japanese Air Production Plans - No Andydb!

[Anachro]

Thanks for the reply, Lok!

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Minor quibble, but realistically you'll be going from Frank-a to Frank-r with the Ki-94-II being the one that should be up top. Don't forget the Ki-83: it's one of your best sweepers in the late war. You will still need to sweep from time to time to prevent your opponent from slacking off on his aerial defenses...

Do you think it's worth it at all to still develop the Oscar? The IIb variant cant still act as a LR escort + has 250kg bombs for kamikaze / fighter-bomber missions. Thanks for more insight in the Ki-83. Late-war planes are still an unknown to me.

The N1K5 is definitely better than the N1K1. I see it as somewhat interchangeable with the N1K2 in terms of performance, but to be honest you don't get that many groups that can use IJN LBA fighters (unless you buy dead CV units back from the destroyed units list).

I'd certainly pursue the N1K5 if I can get to that point. I'm using it instead of the Jack. Do you think it's fine just getting the N1K1 and then skipping the N1K2 to go straight to 5?

I'm assuming your red dotted outlines mean "potentially"... in which case, you should remove the dotted outline from the A6M8 and change that box to A6M5c/A6M8. You will absolutely need one of those A6M models with armor to plug the gap before you get the A7M2 available.

I've heard mixed feedback on this. I've had ppl say the jump from 3a to 8 isn't significant enough and you can go straight from 3a to the A7. Nonetheless, my own plan to use Rufes to jump to the 3a and then jump to the A6M8 while my A7 researches.

I've been beyond unimpressed with the Nick and Dinah night fighters. For my money, I need the Ki-102c Randy. Don't overlook the Ki-102a Randy as a FB if the 44,000 maximum altitude appeals to you.

I'm playing DBB at the moment. I've heard mixed feedback on the Randy too as a NF. Lowpe said it was overrated and seriously recommended the Nick as what I really need. What's your thoughts on the Nick in particular? I initially had the Randy and then changed.

I find your lack of Ki-49 Helen disturbing. I know it uses a unique engine in Scen 2, but you start with those engine factories anyway... and if it's Scen 1, you're building the Tojo as well. Plus, in terms of load/lift, the Ki-49-KAI Helen transport is your best IJAAF transport (though not in terms of range) and you have it on your list, so the engine argument is void.

I do plan to jump straight to the Ki-49-IIa from my initial starting bombers. Do you mean I should go for the Ia? Previous commenters stated it's wasn't really worth the switchover, with the Sally being roughly equivalent. The IIa is a big jump though.

There's no reason to stop at the D4Y1 Judy, and IIRC the D4Y3 becomes SR1 which is invaluable. I like continuing to the D4Y4 as well - if nothing else, it's a kamikaze.

What if I simply dedicate research to the Grace? Is it worth it to still pursue things like the D4Y4?

[SheperdN7]

What if I simply dedicate research to the Grace? Is it worth it to still pursue things like the D4Y4?

I would focus on researching the Grace over any other dive bomber. its bomb payload is 2 x 250 kg bombs which isn't great but the fact that it carries a torpedo as well gives it an edge over any other dive bomber. Also Grace has the best armament (2 x 20mm and 1 x 13mm) and highest speed + range. Also highest durability for a DB. Done deal for me.

I'd certainly pursue the N1K5 if I can get to that point. I'm using it instead of the Jack. Do you think it's fine just getting the N1K1 and then skipping the N1K2 to go straight to 5?

George over Jack any day of the week. Never have bothered with the Jack, most likely never will.

Biggest piece of advice I can give you is don't get greedy with expanding factories, the overall economy just simply can't handle it and you'll end up crippling yourself before the allies have a chance to do it themselves.

[Lokasenna]

The Rufe jumps to the A6M5, not the A6M3a. And yes, you want the armor on the A6M5c and/or A6M8. It makes a huge difference in plane losses and therefore pilot survivability. I don't know who gave you the advice to skip the rest of the A6M line after the 3a... [:)]

I think you may miss the Jack. I use both Jack and George and they each have distinct roles. The Jack is a far better defender, but the George is a decent defender and retains the ability to conduct offensive operations. It is an OK sweeper. I'm talking about the J2M5 and N1K5 here - you should be going for both. I don't see a huge difference between SR2 and SR3 fighters, although I'm sure if I looked more closely I would see it.

I don't like the Oscar at all. It's a stopgap until the Frank arrives, which still has decent range. I've kept a few Oscar-IV squadrons around, but their uses are very few. The Frank even makes a better kamikaze: more of them will get through to the target and they carry the same 2x250kg bombs.

The Nick is not a great night fighter, in my experience. It lacks radar, while the Randy has radar. I don't actually have the Randy yet, but soon. There are few IJAAF NF squadrons in any case. The weapon difference on the Randy is that it has a much more accurate CL cannon, and it has 2 of them. The Nick has one large inaccurate CL cannon. The Randy is superior in every respect, on paper, and is still fast enough to catch B-29s.

There isn't much difference between the -Ia Helen and -IIa Helen, IMO. The -Ia does have a radar device. Yes, it carries the same stuff as the Sally, so there's no need to rush the Helen development, but the Helen is a superior aircraft and once you've got it produced in enough numbers you'll be swapping out where appropriate. You're going to be making the Ha-34 engines anyway. Meanwhile, the Sally would be eating up the same engine model as some of your other planes (Jill, Betty, Emily, Frances, and Jack). The Helen-IIb does get some more guns, but honestly it's not much. The Sally gets 1 more hex of range over the Helen-Ia but that's it.

Grace vs. Judy - here's the crux... Yes, the Grace is superior, however you can't get it in October 1942 like you can get the Judy in October 1942. And you can't keep using the Val until you get the Grace. Therefore, you're getting the Judy. You'll have invested supplies into Judy R&D factories. You don't need to produce more than 60 Judy per month (probably) initially, and presumably you'll have more than 1 factory allocated to Judy for R&D. You'd crank one of them to 60 when you get D4Y1 in production, and leave the rest of your Judy factories on R&D for the D4Y2 and D4Y3. Meanwhile, you won't get the Grace until early 1944 at the absolute earliest. The Judy-1 and Judy-2 are both SR3, while the Judy-3 is SR1 and just as fast as the Grace. I don't put any stock in the armament of DBs. It will never make a difference in any game - you don't have the time nor the ability to cross-train your DB pilots in Air skill. You're going to want that Judy-3 before you unlock the Grace in early 1944 because you're not going to want to float along on the earlier Judy models for all of 1943.

Also, the Grace doesn't carry 2x250kg bombs, it carries 1x800kg just like the D4Y4 IIRC - at normal range.


Yes, factories can be expensive if you greatly overdo it. But the real supply burner for you, long term, is going to be your combat operations and your LCU replacements rather than any "extra" or overdone factory expenditures (full factory expenditures over the course of the war may be greater, but that's the case even with a skimpy industrial expansion).

[PaxMondo]

As you can see a great variance of opinion here. There is no best answer, it depends upon what fits your strategy and style of play.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
It lacks radar, while the Randy has radar.

Whoopi, it activates 10/45. For most games that is way too late. Army NF just plain suck, but their numbers are important.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

If you're going to get the J1N1-S Irving, you may as well get the J1N1-Sa Irving which has radar from 11/44 onwards.

The -Sa is vastly superior as it adds another gun, too![:)]

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
It lacks radar, while the Randy has radar.

Whoopi, it activates 10/45. For most games that is way too late. Army NF just plain suck, but their numbers are important.

Well I dedicated five R&D sites to it on day one. Should get it for me pretty early with the engine bonus. We'll see. I'll let ya know how it plays out. If I ever get there that is.[:D]

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

If you're going to get the J1N1-S Irving, you may as well get the J1N1-Sa Irving which has radar from 11/44 onwards.

The -Sa is vastly superior as it adds another gun, too![:)]

Isn't the Irving a bit too slow for the B-29?

When making my night fighter selections I used speed and radar as my main criteria.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

If you're going to get the J1N1-S Irving, you may as well get the J1N1-Sa Irving which has radar from 11/44 onwards.

The -Sa is vastly superior as it adds another gun, too![:)]

Isn't the Irving a bit too slow for the B-29?

When making my night fighter selections I used speed and radar as my main criteria.

It will still intercept them, just not as many passes...but that doesn't really matter as the planes run out of ammo so fast anyhow because of how few guns they carry.

Navy NF: Most important Irving Sa (radar and you can get them early), Frances (best), Zero NF (allows resizing(if you do that) and protecting the KB but worthless otherwise).

Myrt does really well but comes very late.

[SunYan]

Hi, This is my First poste here (also very new to the Game)

In Anachro's plan are these Enginges used by Plane-Types:

Ha-31 x 3
Ha-32 x 6
Ha-33 x 10
Ha-34 x 5
Ha-35 x 12
Ha-42 x 1 (H8K2 Emily)
Ha-43 x 1 (N1K5 George)
Ha-44 x 2 (B6N1 Jill / Ki-94-II)
Ha-45 x 10
Ha-60 x 1 (D4Y1 Judy)

Is it better to avoid the Planes that engines used only for them?

Thank you for your Input

Best,
SunYan

[Anachro]

Hello SunYan, in my original post, my overarching goal was to use the least number of engines possible, so I could spend the least amount of investment for the greatest return. That said, I think the feedback here is that some planes are simply worth the investment. Some of my initial choices were also dependent on what I had decided to produce.

For instance, the H8K1 and H8K2 Emily required me to invest in a new engine that I would not be producing any other planes for (Mitsubishi Ha-32), thus I felt the cost of investing in it too high versus sticking with the slightly worse Mavis (1 less distance, no armor). However, the Jack navy fighter also requires the Ha-32, so perhaps I will produce Jacks instead of Georges if I decide to go down the route of developing and producing Emilys; it would certainly make sense to do so. Then again, maybe I'll just make both since the George and the Frank also have Engine synergies.

However, I'm not sure if I will make the investment, as I'm already producing the Ha-33 which the Mavis uses in '41 and the gains from using the Emily by itself don't seem too great. As others have said, it comes down to personal preference about the trade-offs you inevitably have to make, but there are far more knowledgeable people in this thread than me (Lowpe, Lok, Pax, etc.)

In short: There is no simple cookie-cutter route you should take on your R&D; your decisions on certain planes/engines will impact your decisions elsewhere.

[Lokasenna]

You will absolutely want the Emily transport plane, however... so you may as well make the regular Emily, too.

[rustysi]

Navy NF: Most important Irving Sa (radar and you can get them early), Frances (best), Zero NF (allows resizing(if you do that) and protecting the KB but worthless otherwise).

Thanks, good info, may have to make some adjustments. Especially the Zero, didn't think in terms of the KB, though I think I was going to produce it when it came in 'naturally'. Have to have another look.

Myrt does really well but comes very late.

Yeah, its another one I started on early. Only three sites to start IIRC.

Ha-42 x 1 (H8K2 Emily)

This is wrong, Ha-32 would be its engine. At least in stock.

For instance, the H8K1 and H8K2 Emily required me to invest in a new engine that I would not be producing any other planes for (Mitsubishi Ha-32)

Again, in stock. This engine is rather important to Japan. It and the Ha-33 are used by several necessary aircraft. The 33 is used by the Jake IIRC, one of Japans' most used search planes. Both the Judy and the Jill use these engines in their respective later and more importantly lower SR models. So be careful when making engine selections.

To me the throw away engines from the get go are the Ha-31 and Ha-42. The 31 is used by a bunch of planes I will not be producing beyond the at start supply anyway. Planes that I recall that use them are Pete's, Dinah's, Topsy's, etc. If you feel you need some more of these go ahead and keep them in production for a bit longer and then drop the engine. All of these aircraft will be superseded by later and better models that use different engines anyway. In my experience if you husband these early models, you should be OK. As for the 42, IIRC its a one plane wonder and I decided its a non-starter from the beginning.

In addition I don't put an effort into the Japanese rocket or jet engines. I feel its too much effort for too little gain. Besides Japan just doesn't have the necessary number of engine sites to go for everything.

That which is directly above is JMHO. YMMV.

[rustysi]

You will absolutely want the Emily transport plane, however... so you may as well make the regular Emily, too.

While I too like the Emily transport, aren't they only available in very limited numbers?

[Barb]

Every plane has its use... One just had to think to how to make best use of it
Japanese big guns (37mm/40mm) are not that bad. Generally 1 less accuracy than their allied counterpart (see Ho-301 cannon vs 40mm Vickers S). Of course 37mm Type 94 cannon is not as accurate, because it is actually a land based field gun (like 75mm M4 on B-25G). But 37mm Ho-203 is good enough. Take it as opportunity weapon.

So consider Ki-45KAI c as a plane with 2x20mm cannon (center-line doubles accuracy). With option for critical damage as a bonus with its central mounted 37mm cannon - if it hits, even a B-29 would have a lot of luck to survive.
Also Ki-44-IIa has what 2x7,7mm (center-line doubled) + 2x12.7mm . Ki-44-IIb has 2x12.7mm in center-line and a nice bonus with 2x40mm - if they hit at all it would be probably certain kill. So basically you traded 4x7.7mm+2x12.7 for 4x12.7+2x40mm (if we take some liberty as translating center-line weapons as double). "4x12.7" are enough to get a fighter with a nice bonus.

Of course Ki-44-IIc is superior to both IIa and IIb (having in accuracy 6x12.7mm and armor). But having few Ki-44-IIb in the mix can be of advantage.

So one can also look on various Ki-61 versions... IIRC:
Ki-61-Ia = 2xCL 12.7 + 2x7.7 (so 4x12.7+2x7.7)
Ki-61-Ib = 2xCL 12.7 + 2x12.7 (so 6x12.7)
Ki-61-Ic = 2xCL 12.7 + 2x20 (so 4x12.7+2x20)
Ki-61-Id = 2xCL 20 + 2x12.7 (so 4x20 + 2x12.7)
Ki-61-II KAI = 2xCL 20 + 2x12.7 (so 4x20 + 2x12.7)
Everything with a 20mm is good to kill some bombers. Everything else should go for fighters. And one never has enough planes

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

You will absolutely want the Emily transport plane, however... so you may as well make the regular Emily, too.

While I too like the Emily transport, aren't they only available in very limited numbers?

Any IJNAF transport squadron can use them. Some of them are even 36-plane squadrons (IIRC). They're extremely useful. Limited is an accurate descriptor if used relative to, say, Jakes.

[rustysi]

Any IJNAF transport squadron can use them. Some of them are even 36-plane squadrons (IIRC).

Again I learn something. Never thought to look at the non-seaplane groups to see if they could convert to Emily-L.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Any IJNAF transport squadron can use them. Some of them are even 36-plane squadrons (IIRC).

Again I learn something. Never thought to look at the non-seaplane groups to see if they could convert to Emily-L.

Yes, but Tabby are nice too, half the engine price and easier to keep flying.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Any IJNAF transport squadron can use them. Some of them are even 36-plane squadrons (IIRC).

Again I learn something. Never thought to look at the non-seaplane groups to see if they could convert to Emily-L.

Yes, but Tabby are nice too, half the engine price and easier to keep flying.

True, but the seaplanes are useful for getting stranded units out sometimes.

[Lokasenna]

Not to mention less susceptible to airfield bombing.