CV TF reaction setting

[Lokasenna]

Furthermore, I haven't changed the settings for this TF for weeks - it has been getting attacks off on the pair of subs that are hanging around up here. Without my going back to previous orders files, you'll have to take my word on that as well, but I'm not making these things up.

Here is a Tracker screenshot showing the location of the TF. I've highlighted the row where you can see that the TF has deviated 2 hexes to the NE, which (since I haven't changed the TF orders from Patrol Zone in 124,48) can only be the result of a reaction to enemy submarine. There has been nothing else up here for it to react to, and it's an ASW TF in any case so would not react to any enemy surface forces even if they were to have been here. Which they weren't on turn 163.

Note also that the home port is Ominato, which is the opposite direction, so it wasn't a case of the TF going to/from port to replenish. Further up in the Tracker history, I do have an instance of that happening.

[Alfred]

Just to clarify.
 
I am not suggesting that players do not see the flashing of an ASW TF "reacting" message.  The message does get flashed across the screen.  But I do not recall ever witnessing an ASW combat involving the "reacting" ASW TF.  Posts #38 and #41 of the thread I hyperlined pointed out the phases which would ensue if there had been a real "reaction".  I do not recall having ever witnessed those phases following a "reaction" message nor do I recall any player who has commented on seeing the "reacting" message, confirming those phases had occurred.
 
Alfred

[szmike]

Loka,

there is this little file: combat events, where you could capture messages which are missed during replay.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: szmike

Loka,

there is this little file: combat events, where you could capture messages which are missed during replay.

I don't think that message gets included, unfortunately.

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Just to clarify.

I am not suggesting that players do not see the flashing of an ASW TF "reacting" message.  The message does get flashed across the screen.  But I do not recall ever witnessing an ASW combat involving the "reacting" ASW TF.  Posts #38 and #41 of the thread I hyperlined pointed out the phases which would ensue if there had been a real "reaction".  I do not recall having ever witnessed those phases following a "reaction" message nor do I recall any player who has commented on seeing the "reacting" message, confirming those phases had occurred.

Alfred

I actually haven't ever seen a combat occur from this reaction, either - but the TF definitely does move on my screen, and presumably the submarine could attempt to attack the TF that reacted to it. I haven't seen the ASW TF initiate contact. I have probably seen the submarine initiate an attack (as they sometimes do against ASW TFs when they are aggressive), but I don't have a documented attack occurring away from the PZ hex. I'm sure that if it happens, I have evidence of one buried somewhere in my turn files but I really don't want to dig for something so minor. I'll be keeping my eye out for one to occur in future.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

... I actually haven't ever seen a combat occur from this reaction, either - but the TF definitely does move on my screen, and presumably the submarine could attempt to attack the TF that reacted to it. I haven't seen the ASW TF initiate contact. I have probably seen the submarine initiate an attack (as they sometimes do against ASW TFs when they are aggressive), but I don't have a documented attack occurring away from the PZ hex. I'm sure that if it happens, I have evidence of one buried somewhere in my turn files but I really don't want to dig for something so minor. I'll be keeping my eye out for one to occur in future.

Without access to the code it is very easy for players to misinterpret on the basis of only partial info, what is actually occurring under the hood. When the actual coder (Don Bowen) says

Unfortunately yes. Due to the mechanics of reaction and retreat we were not able to allow reaction TO a submarine TF. I know this sounds like an easy thing, but t'ain't. (19 July 2009)

and

This is correct - ASW TFs do not react to submarines. They only clear the hexes that they enter with normal or patrol movement.

I understand that some people may with for them to react to detected submarines but that feature is not currently implemented. (3 August 2009)

it is impossible for me to overlook. Particularly when it is easy for a coder to leave untouched code hooks which lead nowhere.

For example a sub TF is a task force. This is why an air unit tasked only with naval search can still locate sub TFs although the task is more efficiently undertaken via the dedicated ASW search mission. A naval ASW TF is a combat force and just like a carrier TF, Type A reaction capability exists. It would be easier and quicker for a coder to allow that hook to remain but then block the ASW TF from entering the ASW algorithms which are different from the surface combat algorithms. To attempt to make an ASW TF an exception by explicitly writing non reacting code within reacting code could potentially have created other problems. At the very least it would have necessitated a much greater testing and development effort.

Leaving untouched such a hook would easily explain why the reacting message is called up and is flashed across the screen. Calling up the string variable really doesn't mean much if the hook is a dead end and no combat ASW will result.

Lokasenna is quite correct in pointing out that the hunted do turn on the hunters, that sub TFs do attack ASW TFs. This situation is further complicated by the opaqueness during the combat animation of what were the actual patrol hexes of the ASW TF. With greater complication depending on what type of "patrol" was set.

Alfred

[Lowpe]

Use a screen recording piece of software on the combat replay...in fact you can just replay the turn loading the replay and capture no need to await the next turn unless you are looking for a better example of reaction.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Use a screen recording piece of software on the combat replay...in fact you can just replay the turn loading the replay and capture no need to await the next turn unless you are looking for a better example of reaction.

I've got one, but I will need to adjust my settings for number of frames it records per second. With a short video that wouldn't be an issue. I may do this later today or in a bit, we'll see.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Use a screen recording piece of software on the combat replay...in fact you can just replay the turn loading the replay and capture no need to await the next turn unless you are looking for a better example of reaction.

I've got one, but I will need to adjust my settings for number of frames it records per second. With a short video that wouldn't be an issue. I may do this later today or in a bit, we'll see.

I captured it. Click the pic to get to the video of it. You can clearly see the ASW TF moving.



https://youtu.be/oTGDN2tSdEc?t=32s

[rustysi]

I am not suggesting that players do not see the flashing of an ASW TF "reacting" message. The message does get flashed across the screen. But I do not recall ever witnessing an ASW combat involving the "reacting" ASW TF.

My experience.

I captured it. Click the pic to get to the video of it. You can clearly see the ASW TF moving.

Also my experience, but from what I've seen it results when the TF's (sub and ASW) paths' cross. If there's no intersection you can get the message as above, but nothing happens.

Edit:In addition I've seen an ASW TF 'react' to a sub for a number of hexes and not initiate an attack.

[Lokasenna]

As shown, that TF only had a 1-hex PZ that was the hex it started in. It reacted at least once to the east during the turn. No attack was initiated, as usual, but it at least puts the ASW TF in the same hex as a sub where contact is a possibility either later in the turn or from the sub itself.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

As shown, that TF only had a 1-hex PZ that was the hex it started in. It reacted at least once to the east during the turn. No attack was initiated, as usual, but it at least puts the ASW TF in the same hex as a sub where contact is a possibility either later in the turn or from the sub itself.

And if the sub does not move there is a chance of an ASW attack next turn too. [:)]

[LargeSlowTarget]

This just happened in my PBEM - someone can explain?

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jul 25, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on TF, near Truscott at 72,121

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 3 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 1 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 11
F4F-4 Wildcat x 8
SBD-3 Dauntless x 18

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
DD Hibiki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Ikazuchi

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Truscott at 72,121

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 1 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 0 minutes

Allied aircraft
SBD-5 Dauntless x 11

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
DD Ikazuchi
DD Hibiki, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x SBD-5 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
4 x SBD-5 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Hibiki

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Truscott at 72,121

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 13
TBF-1 Avenger x 17

Allied aircraft losses
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
DD Ikazuchi

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22.4in Mk 13 Torp.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Truscott at 72,121

Japanese Ships
DD Ikazuchi

Allied Ships
SS Hake, hits 7, heavy damage

SS Hake launches 2 torpedoes at DD Ikazuchi
DD Ikazuchi fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Ikazuchi fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Ikazuchi attacking submerged sub ....
DD Ikazuchi attacking submerged sub ....
DD Ikazuchi is out of ASW ammo
DD Ikazuchi is out of ASW ammo
DD Ikazuchi fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub



OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Jul 25, 43

Ki-21-IIb Sally reports object under water at 68, 115 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports shape below surface at 67, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports oil slick at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports conning tower at 67, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports submarine wake at 68, 115 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports conning tower at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports turbulence in water at 68, 115 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports suspected submarine at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports turbulence in water at 68, 115 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports submarine at 67, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports shape below surface at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports radio transmissions at 68, 115 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports oil slick at 67, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports submarine wake at 67, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports conning tower at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports shape below surface at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports shape below surface at 67, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports possible submarine at 68, 115 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports possible submarine at 68, 115 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports possible submarine at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports conning tower at 67, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports conning tower at 68, 115 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports radio transmissions at 68, 115 near Koepang

TF 81 observes Allied Fighter at 72,121 near Truscott
TF 81 sighted by Allied Recon at 72,121 near Truscott

TF 478 followed by Allied Float Plane at 68,116 near Koepang
-21-IIb Sally reports periscope wake at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports conning tower at 67, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally from 62nd Sentai attacking an Allied SS at 68,115
an Allied SS is reported HIT
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports diving submarine at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally damaged by flak
Ki-21-IIb Sally from 62nd Sentai attacking an Allied SS at 68,117
a 'T' 1941 and 1942 class SS is reported HIT
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports conning tower at 68, 115 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports conning tower at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally from 98th Sentai attacking a Triton class SS at 68,115
a KXIV Class class SS is reported HIT
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports turbulence in water at 67, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports radio transmissions at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports shadow in water at 67, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports radio transmissions at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports object under water at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports suspected submarine at 68, 117 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports oil slick at 68, 115 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally from 98th Sentai attacking a Porpoise class SS at 68,117
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports oil slick at 68, 115 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports radio transmissions at 68, 115 near Koepang
Ki-21-IIb Sally from 98th Sentai attacking SS Grunion at 67,117
SS Grunion is reported HIT
Ki-21-IIb Sally reports submarine wake at 68, 117 near Koepang

Pumps fail aboard DD Hibiki, flooding increases...

She went down next day [:(]

[BBfanboy]

Looks like your aircraft spotted the sub at hex line 115 and kept contact to at least line 117. The ASW TF had react range of six so it probably reacted initially to the air sightings and then subsequently had a series of one-hex reacts to the sub TF(s) that drew the DDs into bombing range. You would have to run the replay with message delay set to 1.0 or 1.5 to catch all the messages.

[Lowpe]

Very well documented LST.[:)]

Perhaps the DD reacted to the closer sub, in deep water, and then reacted more to the better target in the shallows and perhaps even damaged by air attack?

[Lokasenna]

Ouch. I haven't seen an ASW TF react that far, but I didn't think it was impossible. That's why I keep my reaction spinner to lower numbers.

[Lecivius]

I have seen ASW groups out of Pearl react slowly almost to kwajalein. It does happen if daily contacts is seen by air.

[IdahoNYer]

Was wondering what the heck those two DDs were doing out in the Timor Sea L_S_T!! Never though of reacting all that distance to a sub contact - good to know ASW TFs can in fact react that far!

[LargeSlowTarget]

Didn't expect them to react that far either, esp. with lots of other subs closer to Koepang to go for. Well, I hope USS Hake has a flotation problem thanks to vengeful Ikazuchi.

[rustysi]

This just happened in my PBEM - someone can explain?

My experience has shown that what Alfred (and at least one Dev) has said is true, ASW TF's do not react. Those messages that you get to the effect that an ASW TF is reacting are false. The TF just sits there and does nothing. What has happened here as I've seen in my games is that the sub moved into the ASW TF's hex (or vice-versa) and was picked up and followed from that point. To add to that I only set my ASW TF's to react no more than 3 hexes and I've had them follow for up to six hexes. I've also checked to confirm that the TF's (sub and ASW) trajectories do in fact cross. I've even gone as far as looking at an enemy subs' path and simply put an ASW TF in one of its hexes. Sure as I'm sittin' here the ASW TF will 'react' if it has a good enough DL on the sub. So what I'm saying is that the ASW TF is not reacting to a known enemy position, but to one it picked up as it moved through its own location.

Take it or leave it as you will, but that is my experience to this point in the game.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

This just happened in my PBEM - someone can explain?

My experience has shown that what Alfred (and at least one Dev) has said is true, ASW TF's do not react. Those messages that you get to the effect that an ASW TF is reacting are false. The TF just sits there and does nothing. What has happened here as I've seen in my games is that the sub moved into the ASW TF's hex (or vice-versa) and was picked up and followed from that point. To add to that I only set my ASW TF's to react no more than 3 hexes and I've had them follow for up to six hexes. I've also checked to confirm that the TF's (sub and ASW) trajectories do in fact cross. I've even gone as far as looking at an enemy subs' path and simply put an ASW TF in one of its hexes. Sure as I'm sittin' here the ASW TF will 'react' if it has a good enough DL on the sub. So what I'm saying is that the ASW TF is not reacting to a known enemy position, but to one it picked up as it moved through its own location.

Take it or leave it as you will, but that is my experience to this point in the game.

My experience is a little different and has played out multiple times in the last two months - with me consciously watching to see what was going on. As Alfred confirmed above, the ASW TF can indeed get the "React" message and actually move one hex, but it will not then attack in that same turn. In my case I had multiple ASW TFs blanketing an area where a sub was known to be and when one discovered the sub, one or more of the surrounding ASW TFs reacted and actually moved into the target hex, but none attacked that turn.

Unfortunately the reaction opened holes in my blanketed area and the sub usually escaped before taking any serious damage. For that reason I am likely to turn the React setting for ASW TFs down to 0.