Submarine warfare in WIF CE

[brian brian]

There is another more important rules change that makes attacking Denmark a little less relevant in 1939 - you must control one of Kiel, Oslo, or Copenhagen to move between the North Sea and the Baltic. So no more Surprise Impulse kamikaze French raids.

Germany does need to secure the place, eventually, and even relatively early as a bad roll on the Mining Norwegian Coast option can suddenly make the Baltic very interesting.


I am still looking forward to trying the new game and in particular the Battle of the Atlantic with all bells and whistles (revamped CoiF), but am still several months out from that aspiration.

[Joseignacio]

Yes, it was mentioned in another thread (from which this one was born) by Sabre21.

I commented it in this thread in page one but didn't explain myself very well.

It is possible but only deserves it if you do it with the BB, instead of cruisers. Cruisers are much more valuable to the Allies as additional escorts under FF, with their own movements, which give an special flexibility to the CW.

And anyway they would have to cross in impulse 2 (1 of Allies), else Axis will take Denmark and it's over. Once there, besides, they would need to be activated each time with a naval move, when usually you´ll need to make land impulses, and they will not flip back at the end of the turn, so each of them can only be used once to activate a search.

The CV should not be sent, since it can be interned as a half built CV for USA or a transport. BTW, if I read it correctly, this option now needs to be done AFTER it is in Vichy and not BEFORE as it used to be.

[brian brian]

No, the Allies can not enter the Baltic, at all, in CE/WiF8, while Denmark is neutral. A side must _control_ Copenhagen, Oslo, or Kiel to do it. Neutrals control their own hexes before they enter the war. It was a good Allied play in WiF7, but is now a Ghost-of-WiF-Past.

I am thinking the best time for Germany to improve it’s eventual defensive perimeter would be the first Snow impulse of 1940. Though if recon spots the Ark Royal on a long patrol cruise in the North Sea (in the 4 box), Germany might want to push the Go button immediately.

Though I felt messing with the Baltic was good play in WiF7, I never understood the intense interest in it, as in this thread. As Germany, I liked to shut down the Allied options on this nearly completely, quite simply, by sending an ARM to Frederikshavn, but then I don’t tend to cross the Belgian border in 1939 either. As the CW, I would delight in using Home Fleet to obliterate any German force less than an ARM in north Denmark, unless both Belgium and Italy were in the war. Unprepared German players get so upset by it they come close to using the word “cheat” over it, and it subtly throws them off their game.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

No, the Allies can not enter the Baltic, at all, in CE/WiF8, while Denmark is neutral. A side must _control_ Copenhagen, Oslo, or Kiel to do it. Neutrals control their own hexes before they enter the war. It was a good Allied play in WiF7, but is now a Ghost-of-WiF-Past.

True enough, Now it cannot, I let myself get carried away and spoke of Raw 7.0, the comment of Sabre21 was on MWIF and so 7.0. There were several discussions (again in the thread), for example the subs matter was on RAW 8.5 (but compared to RAW 7.0), and this one was on MWIF, so 7.0.

11.4.4. Naval movement restrictions

(...)
4. You can’t move naval units between the Baltic Sea and the North
Sea (even via Frederikshavn or Kristiansand) if:

• no major power on your side controls any of Oslo (W0549),
Copenhagen (W0442) or Kiel, or

• one or more major powers you are at war with control the
other 2.

****************

(...) As the CW, I would delight in using Home Fleet to obliterate any German force less than an ARM in north Denmark, unless both Belgium and Italy were in the war. Unprepared German players get so upset by it they come close to using the word “cheat” over it, and it subtly throws them off their game.

I don't get it. How can you destroy a land German force in Denmark with a Fleet? Some unusual optional like carpet bombing? Or just deploying 4 or more CW corps?

[davidachamberlain]

I think what is meant is to do an invasion (or a couple).

The shore bombardment won't kill, by itself, but supporting an invasion on a cheap unit (which could be cut out of supply and disorganized) with another invasion in a clear, out of ZOC hex can get good or extremely good (with disorganized and out of supply) attack.

Dave

[Joseignacio]

Makes sense, even though in the text that action seemed like a Fleet action, not a land combat.

It could have been (not a shore bombardment) but a carpet bombing with CVPs, it would be extremely weird but provided a high number of CVPs, and playing with this optional, possible. The CVP have only tactical factors, not strategic, but some rules versions or optionals (IIRW) allow equal tactical values to strategical for some purposes. I'll consult it with my mates and be back, it can be too hard to search all the rulesets just for this.

Edit: Checked, it's an optional within the 3D10 table.

It would be really weird but possible.

[brian brian]

In RaW7, many a German player would be quite sloppy as they over-ran Denmark. They would generally send a unit to Frederikshavn, sure. As CW, my favorite thing to see there was the Tank Destroyer unit - costs 5 BP; commonly sent there due to its 6 movement points. Common to see a motorized division also, or maybe an entire MOT corps.

Also not common to see the Germans set up enough units on the Danish border to take every coastal hex; though Germany certainly has the units available to do that, many German players are greedy on the first turn, invading some 5 other countries (incl. France).

There is also an Allied riposte available for when Germany sets up several fast units on the Danish border - they can be targeted by Ground Strike on the Surprise Impulse.

Now, any time the Germans don’t control every coastal hex before the end-of-turn, the CW controls the hex. And they can then land the Gort HQ, and another corps with it, possibly including their MECH, and the infantry division - no ‘invasion’ required. These units can then attack whatever German force is holding Frederikshavn, and the CW land factors will be doubled by the plentiful Battleships of Home Fleet - my reference to ‘obliteration’, which is near automatic on anything short of a full corps. They might even be able to use the blitz table to R etreat a whole German corps right out of Frederikshavn. (Then serious raids of the Baltic can get rolling on turn 2 with a stack of four “R” class BBs as Churchill dreamed.)

All of that is why I send a true Panzer corps to Frederikshavn, as it is hardly needed in Poland. I have explained this Allied response on here many times; players with a weak rules background don’t understand some of the process here, and many ‘Panzer Heads’ who only ever play Germany and sometimes Russia for variety also don’t understand the capabilities of the Royal Navy. And such players cry Foul when this happens to them, and also claim it doesn’t matter, even when they are faced with losing 3 Swedish resources, a steady drip of Convoy Point losses, perhaps the beginning of the attritrion of the Kriegsmarine, and most seriously of all, the choice between a land impulse and a Combibed impulse. The Axis might also task the Italian NAV to help in the Baltic. When you are responding to an opponents move, you are losing. The Axis should not in any way be doing any response moves in 39/40.

Won’t Gort be needed in France? Possibly. My point is the Allies can also play high-risk, high-reward on the first turn. One bad weather roll and the German campaign in Belgium stops for an impulse, for one. If the Germans roll all good ‘Hitler Weather’ in S/O 39, Gort holding a coastal hex in France is going to make little difference. Only Wavell+Gort will really help then. And quite often the decisive turn in a “France First” is N/D, when the weather rolls become even more fraught. Meanwhile, the Royal Navy can sail, fire weapons, and chew gum at the same time - they can fairly easily shift Gort over to France; they have a variety of these things called Re-Org points, and clever ways to use them.


All of that is quite different in CE8; for example the CW now only has 3 TRS on the first turn, not 4, and Shore Bombardment is substantially weaker. So the CW player whol lands Gort + 2 MOT in France on the first Allied impulse of the game and thinks that is a successful application of their Prime Directive, well that is a little more true now.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

In RaW7, many a German player would be quite sloppy as they over-ran Denmark. They would generally send a unit to Frederikshavn, sure. As CW, my favorite thing to see there was the Tank Destroyer unit - costs 5 BP; commonly sent there due to its 6 movement points. Common to see a motorized division also, or maybe an entire MOT corps.

Also not common to see the Germans set up enough units on the Danish border to take every coastal hex; though Germany certainly has the units available to do that, many German players are greedy on the first turn, invading some 5 other countries (incl. France).

There is also an Allied riposte available for when Germany sets up several fast units on the Danish border - they can be targeted by Ground Strike on the Surprise Impulse.

Now, any time the Germans don’t control every coastal hex before the end-of-turn, the CW controls the hex. And they can then land the Gort HQ, and another corps with it, possibly including their MECH, and the infantry division - no ‘invasion’ required. These units can then attack whatever German force is holding Frederikshavn, and the CW land factors will be doubled by the plentiful Battleships of Home Fleet - my reference to ‘obliteration’, which is near automatic on anything short of a full corps. They might even be able to use the blitz table to R etreat a whole German corps right out of Frederikshavn. (Then serious raids of the Baltic can get rolling on turn 2 with a stack of four “R” class BBs as Churchill dreamed.)

All of that is why I send a true Panzer corps to Frederikshavn, as it is hardly needed in Poland. I have explained this Allied response on here many times; players with a weak rules background don’t understand some of the process here, and many ‘Panzer Heads’ who only ever play Germany and sometimes Russia for variety also don’t understand the capabilities of the Royal Navy. And such players cry Foul when this happens to them, and also claim it doesn’t matter, even when they are faced with losing 3 Swedish resources, a steady drip of Convoy Point losses, perhaps the beginning of the attritrion of the Kriegsmarine, and most seriously of all, the choice between a land impulse and a Combibed impulse. The Axis might also task the Italian NAV to help in the Baltic. When you are responding to an opponents move, you are losing. The Axis should not in any way be doing any response moves in 39/40.

Won’t Gort be needed in France? Possibly. My point is the Allies can also play high-risk, high-reward on the first turn. One bad weather roll and the German campaign in Belgium stops for an impulse, for one. If the Germans roll all good ‘Hitler Weather’ in S/O 39, Gort holding a coastal hex in France is going to make little difference. Only Wavell+Gort will really help then. And quite often the decisive turn in a “France First” is N/D, when the weather rolls become even more fraught. Meanwhile, the Royal Navy can sail, fire weapons, and chew gum at the same time - they can fairly easily shift Gort over to France; they have a variety of these things called Re-Org points, and clever ways to use them.


All of that is quite different in CE8; for example the CW now only has 3 TRS on the first turn, not 4, and Shore Bombardment is substantially weaker. So the CW player whol lands Gort + 2 MOT in France on the first Allied impulse of the game and thinks that is a successful application of their Prime Directive, well that is a little more true now.

Brian, I'm intrigued and curious. Would the below invasion of Denmark be sufficient to keep you as, the CW, out of Denmark? If not, what would be your strategy for getting in?

P.S. By the way, this question is really open to anyone who'd wish to take a crack at it. I'm just curious if the invasion below is solid enough to keep the allies from intervening in Denmark.

[paulderynck]

The only way that position can happen is if playing with the RR Movement Bonus - a truly awful and unrealistic optional rule that is heavily axis-favorable.

If playing that then the axis player should be a total Noob who is unlikely to appreciate that he can even make those moves.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The only way that position can happen is if playing with the RR Movement Bonus - a truly awful and unrealistic optional rule that is heavily axis-favorable.

If you don't mind, I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you believe this optional rule is, "truly awful and unrealistic". I most often play with the optional but if it's not a good one to use then I need to stop using it.

[paulderynck]

1. It is very attacker favorable, allowing such things as blitz advance into forest and staying face-up if doing so along a RR. Storm and rain (i.e mud) were especially difficult for armored formations in WWII (likely still are) and yet down the narrow corridor of a RR line its no worries to move full movement with all your corps? Really?
2. And the German Army used huge numbers of horse drawn vehicles and guns in WWII and those aren't too viable or fast moving on a RR in storm or rain either.
3. Except for the Smolensk to Moscow highway, the roads in Russia virtually ceased to exist in poor weather in Russia and yet this effect can be ignored along a RR. That's the main point for a lack of realism.
4. The examples in the picture Jose posted are probably the most egregious offenders. How is it that a ferry crossing becomes easier (i.e. less time consuming) because you are moving along a RR?
5. So why axis-favorable when both sides can do it? Because the Axis attacks for the first half of the game and Russia can be knocked out or virtually neutered by the time the allies are ready to go on the offensive.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

1. It is very attacker favorable, allowing such things as blitz advance into forest and staying face-up if doing so along a RR. Storm and rain (i.e mud) were especially difficult for armored formations in WWII (likely still are) and yet down the narrow corridor of a RR line its no worries to move full movement with all your corps? Really?
2. And the German Army used huge numbers of horse drawn vehicles and guns in WWII and those aren't too viable or fast moving on a RR in storm or rain either.
3. Except for the Smolensk to Moscow highway, the roads in Russia virtually ceased to exist in poor weather in Russia and yet this effect can be ignored along a RR. That's the main point for a lack of realism.
4. The examples in the picture Jose posted are probably the most egregious offenders. How is it that a ferry crossing becomes easier (i.e. less time consuming) because you are moving along a RR?
5. So why axis-favorable when both sides can do it? Because the Axis attacks for the first half of the game and Russia can be knocked out or virtually neutered by the time the allies are ready to go on the offensive.

Very compelling argument ... I'll not longer be using that rule.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
4. The examples in the picture Jose posted are probably the most egregious offenders. How is it that a ferry crossing becomes easier (i.e. less time consuming) because you are moving along a RR?

Which picture?

[paulderynck]

Post #48. The Divs cannot take all the hexes marked as German-controlled without RR movement.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Post #48. The Divs cannot take all the hexes marked as German-controlled without RR movement.

OK, actually I posted that picture. I thought you'd might be referring to something in another thread. [:)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

1. It is very attacker favorable, allowing such things as blitz advance into forest and staying face-up if doing so along a RR. Storm and rain (i.e mud) were especially difficult for armored formations in WWII (likely still are) and yet down the narrow corridor of a RR line its no worries to move full movement with all your corps? Really?
2. And the German Army used huge numbers of horse drawn vehicles and guns in WWII and those aren't too viable or fast moving on a RR in storm or rain either.
3. Except for the Smolensk to Moscow highway, the roads in Russia virtually ceased to exist in poor weather in Russia and yet this effect can be ignored along a RR. That's the main point for a lack of realism.
4. The examples in the picture Jose posted are probably the most egregious offenders. How is it that a ferry crossing becomes easier (i.e. less time consuming) because you are moving along a RR?
5. So why axis-favorable when both sides can do it? Because the Axis attacks for the first half of the game and Russia can be knocked out or virtually neutered by the time the allies are ready to go on the offensive.

warspite1

Thanks for the explanation. I don't use that rule, although not really thought too hard about why. Now I know why I'll never use it [:)]

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

1. It is very attacker favorable, allowing such things as blitz advance into forest and staying face-up if doing so along a RR. Storm and rain (i.e mud) were especially difficult for armored formations in WWII (likely still are) and yet down the narrow corridor of a RR line its no worries to move full movement with all your corps? Really?
2. And the German Army used huge numbers of horse drawn vehicles and guns in WWII and those aren't too viable or fast moving on a RR in storm or rain either.
3. Except for the Smolensk to Moscow highway, the roads in Russia virtually ceased to exist in poor weather in Russia and yet this effect can be ignored along a RR. That's the main point for a lack of realism.
4. The examples in the picture Jose posted are probably the most egregious offenders. How is it that a ferry crossing becomes easier (i.e. less time consuming) because you are moving along a RR?
5. So why axis-favorable when both sides can do it? Because the Axis attacks for the first half of the game and Russia can be knocked out or virtually neutered by the time the allies are ready to go on the offensive.

If one looks at the way things were historically, you can't deny that the attacker (both Germany and the Soviets did) gained more ground in mud along railroad lines than they did on other area's of the front. This effect is not as large as it happens to be in the optional rule which is present in the board game, but it's there historically.
Personally, I would like to see that optional rule changed and make it that the first hex entered along a railline during movement or after combat cost 1 MP less in rain, storm or blizzard.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Post #48. The Divs cannot take all the hexes marked as German-controlled without RR movement.

OK, actually I posted that picture. I thought you'd might be referring to something in another thread. [:)]

Sorry for the false attribution.