The Art of Conflict 2.0

[Menschenfresser]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Why is this leaving Matrix?

The conversation should be held in a venue controlled by the developers. Yes, Matrix could lock all threads (not sure they would, though). And Grogheads could decide a year from now to shut down...all conversations are lost. I'd set up a server and plop down a free open source team chat thing, like Rocket.chat, etc. Give several team members admin access to everything, so no one can disappear and freeze the project.

Store all files, documents, designs on a repo on github, or one of the other such version control systems. Again, several people have admin access.

Start your design docs and designate one or two people with a knack for clarity and detail to make edits. You don't want every member editing those things. Too many cooks...

Start making back-ups on day 1.

Don't stop chatting it up here and elsewhere. Never know when you find new talent. Just make sure important conversations are held in the right place. Consolidation.

[76mm]

Once again Menschenfresser with words of wisdom. I don't think this is his first rodeo!

I agree that the discussion should be on a server controlled by the dev team, we can start chatting on grogheads but need a longer term solution. I might have an idea...

[Hellen_slith]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

... the discussion should be on a server controlled by the dev team ...

Absolutely. Also, be sure that any NDAs / non-competes are not violated.

Not trying to rain on your parade, just putting my legal hat on.

Good luck!

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith
You are barking up the wrong tree. With all the talent at your disposal, the first order of business should be (IMHO) to fix TOAW ... not make a new TOAW.

Perhaps a joint effort / push on TPTB @ Matrix / Slitherine would be a formal business proposal to take that project on.

I sincerely think that that might be a better use of your resources.

You are probably right, and I'd be happy with that outcome, but frankly at this point who's got the patience to contact Matrix and then wait--probably in vain--for some kind of response?

And even if they said yes, if the past is any evidence, it would still probably go nowhere fast. TOAW is deep in limbo, personally I'm tired of waiting around.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith
You are barking up the wrong tree. With all the talent at your disposal, the first order of business should be (IMHO) to fix TOAW ... not make a new TOAW.

Perhaps a joint effort / push on TPTB @ Matrix / Slitherine would be a formal business proposal to take that project on.

I sincerely think that that might be a better use of your resources.

You are probably right, and I'd be happy with that outcome, but frankly at this point who's got the patience to contact Matrix and then wait--probably in vain--for some kind of response?

And even if they said yes, if the past is any evidence, it would still probably go nowhere fast. TOAW is deep in limbo, personally I'm tired of waiting around.

I sent Bart an email asking for some verbage about TOAW and got crickets for a reply. Matrix has now cut their own throat. Goodbye to Matrix.

[Hellen_slith]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith
You are barking up the wrong tree. With all the talent at your disposal, the first order of business should be (IMHO) to fix TOAW ... not make a new TOAW.

Perhaps a joint effort / push on TPTB @ Matrix / Slitherine would be a formal business proposal to take that project on.

I sincerely think that that might be a better use of your resources.

You are probably right, and I'd be happy with that outcome, but frankly at this point who's got the patience to contact Matrix and then wait--probably in vain--for some kind of response?

And even if they said yes, if the past is any evidence, it would still probably go nowhere fast. TOAW is deep in limbo, personally I'm tired of waiting around.

That may be so, and I too would like to see some improvements, e.g. is another patch in the works? From what I've seen, there are patches out there being tested that I am not privy to. But,

For me, I just play the game as is. I applaud the efforts being made here, and hope that they come to fruition.

Not sure about the game being "in limbo" ... I mean we do have an ersatz "tournament" going, and I can find an "on-line" game easily enough. All that, along with the robust PO in some of the latest scenes, particularly the Russo-German war scene, I'm having fun with it, and hope that others will, too.

I have gotten plenty of hours of enjoyment out of it, and many more still left in it, even if it does not go beyond what it is today. I still need to install TOAW III and mess around with THAT and all the user created scenarios for III.

Perhaps I am too easily satisfied, but for me the current iteration will keep me entertained for many years to come, even if we don't see another patch or (shall I hope?) TOAW V.

Just my humble opinion. YMMV!

[Raindem]

I'd like to echo the previous post.

I understand where all the frustration is coming from, as well as the desire to improve on the game. But personally, I'd have a hard time getting behind this project. I know a little bit about game design, and a little bit about programming (I wrote ODD in Pascal, a language even more outdated than C). I think this whole idea is being driven by impatience with Matrix. Frustration and impatience are not a good recipe for success.

I've been a user of TOAW since the early days, when Century of Warfare was first released. The product we are complaining about now is so vastly superior to what we had in the late 90's, I'm almost embarrassed. Then there was a huge time lapse after the release of CoW, and many of us thought the program was dead. Then Matrix came along and revived it. TOAW III was released within a couple years. And then TOAW IV a few years after that (and to an ever dwindling user base). Each release has been leaps and bounds beyond the last (at least as far as scenario design tools go).

Sure, I have gripes too. I wish the programming team had done a better job of backwards compatibility with legacy scenarios. I wish they hadn't wasted so much effort on questionable graphic improvements. I can gripe with the best of them. But I also know a good thing when I have it. And TOAW IV is a good thing.

So if you guys move forward with this, I truly hope you succeed. I'll be there to start designing scenarios. But for now I'm not yet ready to give up on TOAW.

Curt

[sPzAbt653]

the first order of business should be (IMHO) to fix TOAW

There had been a major effort in the Development Forum to affect some change and get TOAW on the right track. I can't speak to specifics but the result is nothing is going to happen. Don't misunderstand, TOAW is not dead, it is constantly being worked on.

My opinion, and my interest in another project is fired by the fact that, TOAW development has been stagnant for fifteen years or more. Every couple years we get a little bit of a new version that will include some new content along with some new bugs. My contention is that for the best game in the history of gaming, this record is completely unacceptable. And this is wholly a result of TOAW being selfishly held hostage by the current developer. I could say a few other things, but it wouldn't change anything, we've already been thru it all on the Development Forum. I'm not satisfied going to my grave knowing that more could have been done.

[76mm]

Actually, I'm not "giving up" on TOAW, it's just that I'm resigned to being a completely passive observer, without any expectation that requests for further information or a quick release of the patch will have any effect. Maybe it's just me, but the complete lack of communication is especially frustrating, because it seems to indicate either a complete indifference to the player base or perhaps more significant issues which cannot even be mentioned in public--either way, not good!

[larryfulkerson]

I'm beyond frustrated. I'm going to take matters into my own hands. Matrix/Slitherene has failed to deliver for the last time with me. I'm not the only one that feels this way. It's a free market and people CAN vote with their feet.

[StuccoFresco]

I have no programming skill. My modding talent is mainly Paradox games' modding, which is really really simple txt editing.

[DD696]

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

ORIGINAL: DD696

The one being proposed in this thread. Read further up.

Sorry, my reading comprehension is not the best right now.

Perhaps you could help me by naming it outright?

Thanks.

It is in post 25. Larry is replying to various comments/questions that have been made. I will reply and quote it so that it may appear next - providing somebody doesn't post immediately after this.

[DD696]

Here it is:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

ORIGINAL: DD696
I'm not a facebook user and intend never to be. Facebook is a hated medium to some of us.

We're going to abandon the Facebook site to go somewhere else. Maybe Grogheads

ORIGINAL: DD696
Agree. Feeling a bit lonely now after stirring the pot finding the truth of the matter.

We're all here with you. No worries.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
If I understand correctly what Al Sousa [WarPlan] said, it took him two years to write that game using Unity. I know we have a great community of selfless contributors here, but I don't know how many volunteer 'coders' or [whatever you call those folks] there are. Also, I have recently talked to some others about such a project and one of the items that came out of that discussion was an outline that would be needed by coders in order to know what they are doing. This seems like a huge task in itself.

I am willing to participate and contribute whatever I can though, because its depressingly obvious that what we have now and have had for many years is completely disappointing.

I'll bet that most of us have no idea what we're getting into.

ORIGINAL: DD696
I'll volunteer. I used to be a good COBOL programmer about 27 years ago, then played with basic for a few years on my pc's. I'm sure that was a helpful skill back then.

Now I have time to spend on whatever I desire and this could be something very worthwhile. I also seem to have a useful trait for fomenting a rebellion of sorts.

We need to have somebody step up and be the honcho for such a project otherwise it is going to run in all directions.

I think maybe the guy with the most experience might be the best leader. It's been 20 years since I was a working stiff and I know nothing about how to herd people to make something worthwhile in software. But at one time I was a really good Assembly programmer (ALC - IBM 360 ).

ORIGINAL: Menschenfresser
Also not a facebook user.

But I am a programmer and AI researcher.

A couple of things:
- This is a huge undertaking that will require multiple talents for 1000s of hours.
- Cannot do this through a BB or Facebook group. It will require regular face-to-face meetings (via internet, I'd assume). Too easy to be an outlier personality when the only mechanism for communication is "Post Reply".
- I wouldn't even bother talking about programming until a core group of dedicated people comes together and designs the thing. That means hammering out the mechanisms, the math and scope for as much of it as possible in as much detail as possible. Easy to say TOAW is broken; hard to say how it should be fixed...and have everyone agree.
- Must be cross-platform. It has been slow, but fewer and fewer developers believe a Windows only release is all they need. Matrix/Slitherine is a bit behind in this area. I think this is doubly true for independent projects.
- Develop the group first. Start regular meetings to draft the idea. Only once you've come together and feel confident the majority are in for the long haul then look for programmers, artists, etc. I'd go with a Patreon model so that everyone in the community can contribute. A constant flow of cash is a base line motivator to keep working.

My two cents.

I agree with all he's said here.

ORIGINAL: 76mm
What @Menschenfresser says makes a great deal of sense.

Also, I would expect that ultimately some limited $$ might be required, for artwork, specialized software, etc; if necessary at the appropriate stage we could set up a Kickstarter project for that.

I'm on Github, but don't see any way to start conversations?

My understanding is that C# + Unity is a pretty popular game development platform, but I have to say that most of the Unity games I've seen have been a bit blah-looking.

As it happens I'm independenly wealthy so to speak since I get both VA disability and SS and it amounts to about $4,000 a month. I spend about $500 a month on food and utilities and the rest goes to my daughter and her husband who are out of work. So I'm able to help out financially a bit.

ORIGINAL: DD696
Is this to be a for profit undertaking?
I'd rather it be free to the players.

Is this to be done as a labor of love for the game concept?
I think so. At least for me it is.

Will this game be distributed without cost to whoever wants it?
I'm going to insist that it is.

Will those who want the game have to pay for it?
I'd rather see it free for whoever wants it.

Does anyone require cash payments to work on this concept?
I'd rather see it as an open source, free project.

Are you willing to volunteer your time?
I am. I hope there are others who feel the same way.

ORIGINAL: pz501
Maybe a good place to move to for discussion and planning purposes? http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php

If you scroll down, you'll see they even have a section called "Game Forge" which looks like it's for game design and development discussions. Both professional and amateur.

Just a thought. I believe the faster we get off of Matrix's turf (unless they specifically OK it) the better. This is their territory after all, and this is a bit of an insurrection so to speak.

I like that idea.

ORIGINAL: 76mm
Actually, might make sense to have the initial discussions on some public game-related forum such as grogheads rather than github to see if anyone else might be interested.

I've already established an account on Grogheads. My login is PopeFrancis.

ORIGINAL: tomlowshang

ORIGINAL: pz501
Speaking only for myself I think we need to keep all controversy and politics out of this. The naming is "cute" [my GitHub account name: DonaldTrump] but might stir up a little trouble. Doesn't matter what your beliefs are, we should check them at the door.

Further, not everyone is from the USA, and I'll bet they couldn't care less about domestic politics and issues.

I know you don't mean anything by the naming, but I'm just sayin'....

That unfortunate choice is Larry's username which cannot be changed on github, AFAICT. The project name by itself is fine, but combined with the username, I strongly suspect many developers will avoid the project. I suggest some else create the project, since nothing's been done yet, but Larry has to delete the project if you want to use the same name.

ORIGINAL: tomlowshang
I'm going to delete the GitHub account since we're not going to use it for anything.

ORIGINAL: 76mm
My understanding is that C# + Unity is a pretty popular game development platform, but I have to say that most of the Unity games I've seen have been a bit blah-looking.

Although it's much too early do discuss tools, I'll suggest the Godot Game Engine. It's free/libre, open source, cross platform, and actively developed. Unfortunately, I cannot post a link, but it's easy to find.

How a game looks has nothing to do with the language or engine used. Creating good graphics assets requires a completely different skill set than writing good code.

ORIGINAL: tomlowshang

ORIGINAL: pz501

Maybe a good place to move to for discussion and planning purposes? [grogheads link]

If you scroll down, you'll see they even have a section called "Game Forge" which looks like it's for game design and development discussions. Both professional and amateur.

Just a thought. I believe the faster we get off of Matrix's turf (unless they specifically OK it) the better. This is their territory after all, and this is a bit of an insurrection so to speak.

Discord is another good option for community discussion but it requires client software. Not sure how everyone feels about that.

ORIGINAL: pz501
Discord is OK if there's a consensus for it. I used it along with a friend from Alaska for of all things, War Thunder about a year ago. We tired of the game after a short while, but Discord was alright. Not my first choice though.

Gentlemen: We seem to be on our way.

[DD696]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

the first order of business should be (IMHO) to fix TOAW

There had been a major effort in the Development Forum to affect some change and get TOAW on the right track. I can't speak to specifics but the result is nothing is going to happen. Don't misunderstand, TOAW is not dead, it is constantly being worked on.

My opinion, and my interest in another project is fired by the fact that, TOAW development has been stagnant for fifteen years or more. Every couple years we get a little bit of a new version that will include some new content along with some new bugs. My contention is that for the best game in the history of gaming, this record is completely unacceptable. And this is wholly a result of TOAW being selfishly held hostage by the current developer. I could say a few other things, but it wouldn't change anything, we've already been thru it all on the Development Forum. I'm not satisfied going to my grave knowing that more could have been done.

That's it. Two years from now we could still be here waiting for a patch to re released, or for TOAW V to be released which would be in reality just the patch we've been waiting for.

I have no idea how long a group of us would require to get a workable game going that builds upon the good points of this game (of which there are many), improves on things that need improving (of which there are many), and adds relevant new features (the long forgotten wish list) in addition to others that were never on the wish list. It seems to me that a team of enthusiasts can go a long way in two years. I would rather help contribute to a project to do this than to sit on my butt any longer waiting for these things to happen (doubtful) with this game.

Do we want all these things in TOAW? Yes. Are we going to get them?

[fogger]

Has anybody been in contact with Bob? Normally it is easier to fix the problem rather than start again from scratch. Have the people volunteering to work on The art of Conflict contact Bob and see if they can provide any assistance. I recall back in 2013(?) someone wrote a simply patch that fixed the AA problem we had at that time. At present it appears that Bob is carrying the workload for TOAW. Ralph not having logged in since 28 Oct on the development forum.

I am not knocking the proposal but going on my family history approx 65% of the males in my family die from cancer between 67-68 year old. I am 65 and 18 months ago I was diagnose with a melanoma and had to have 2 operations to get it all. I am now on 6 month reviews. The good news is that if I make it pass 68 then hopefully I will in the 30% who make it to the mid to late 80's.

This new game could be 2 to 5 years away and how many of us will be around to enjoy it?

I am not knocking the proposal but if all that effort could be put into TOAW the mind boggles at what it would be like.

[parmenio]

My last post to this forum appears to have been on 25th December last year when having just bought TOAW IV I reported that something I used to use in TOAW III no longer worked. Almost 12 months on it's depressing to see the same thing happening with TOAW IV that happened with TOAW III [:(].

While the "obvious" solution is to have TOAW IV fixed, that appears to be wholly beyond the ability of us - the paying customers - to effect.

I'm happy to assist with any programming needed - my language preference would be C# if asked. I don't have an axe to grind game engine-wise - I've used Cocos2d, Ogre and MonoGame and Unity in the past.

[larryfulkerson]

I'm happy to assist with any programming needed - my language preference would be C# if asked. I don't have an axe to grind game engine-wise - I've used Cocos2d, Ogre and MonoGame and Unity in the past.

Thanks for your enthusiasm. Um......we've moved the thread to Grogheads. I've got a link in my signature below.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: fogger

Has anybody been in contact with Bob? Normally it is easier to fix the problem rather than start again from scratch. Have the people volunteering to work on The art of Conflict contact Bob and see if they can provide any assistance. I recall back in 2013(?) someone wrote a simply patch that fixed the AA problem we had at that time. At present it appears that Bob is carrying the workload for TOAW. Ralph not having logged in since 28 Oct on the development forum.

I am not knocking the proposal but going on my family history approx 65% of the males in my family die from cancer between 67-68 year old. I am 65 and 18 months ago I was diagnose with a melanoma and had to have 2 operations to get it all. I am now on 6 month reviews. The good news is that if I make it pass 68 then hopefully I will in the 30% who make it to the mid to late 80's.

This new game could be 2 to 5 years away and how many of us will be around to enjoy it?

I am not knocking the proposal but if all that effort could be put into TOAW the mind boggles at what it would be like.

At one time Tamas said Ralph is quite open to other's volunteering their time to help with TOAW. If I knew someone who was experienced let Tamas know. The three people I personally know in the industry wanted no part of it.

BTW, this is the second or third time this year Ralph has gone MIA. I think Bob can keep in contact with him but it seems that is a one way street. To be honest, other than the multiple MIA thing I know nothing. Someone might try and ask Bart through Bob if Ralph is still open to some volunteer help. Giving someone even parts of the code to work on would require a lot of trust. But if I were him and read what the restless natives put on this forum I'd have second thoughts on the matter. [:D]

[DD696]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: fogger

Has anybody been in contact with Bob? Normally it is easier to fix the problem rather than start again from scratch. Have the people volunteering to work on The art of Conflict contact Bob and see if they can provide any assistance. I recall back in 2013(?) someone wrote a simply patch that fixed the AA problem we had at that time. At present it appears that Bob is carrying the workload for TOAW. Ralph not having logged in since 28 Oct on the development forum.

I am not knocking the proposal but going on my family history approx 65% of the males in my family die from cancer between 67-68 year old. I am 65 and 18 months ago I was diagnose with a melanoma and had to have 2 operations to get it all. I am now on 6 month reviews. The good news is that if I make it pass 68 then hopefully I will in the 30% who make it to the mid to late 80's.

This new game could be 2 to 5 years away and how many of us will be around to enjoy it?

I am not knocking the proposal but if all that effort could be put into TOAW the mind boggles at what it would be like.

At one time Tamas said Ralph is quite open to other's volunteering their time to help with TOAW. If I knew someone who was experienced let Tamas know. The three people I personally know in the industry wanted no part of it.

BTW, this is the second or third time this year Ralph has gone MIA. I think Bob can keep in contact with him but it seems that is a one way street. To be honest, other than the multiple MIA thing I know nothing. Someone might try and ask Bart through Bob if Ralph is still open to some volunteer help. Giving someone even parts of the code to work on would require a lot of trust. But if I were him and read what the restless natives put on this forum I'd have second thoughts on the matter. [:D]

Larryf sent Bart an email mentioned above in another post. He was not happy with the reply provided.

As far as us restless natives go, we're just planning a little tea party. Nothing to be concerned about.

[sPzAbt653]

John - Reread my posts - nothing is going to change.