Ports and Invasion too easy

[Michael T]

I think the game models the Italians and there capabilities well. I don't think they need to be buffed is all. I don't advocate for a reduction BTW.

The Alpini are quite decent corp. The Italians can build loads of them if they seek quality infantry.

[battlevonwar]

On the Eastern Front by 1942 you have Romanian/Hungarian Corps that can be 12 Strength with Experience. These type of units actually can hold a line. There aren't many but they're useful. The Italians are useless. In fact they worse than useless. They are literally Divisions with their experience level. So a clever Italian Player would almost benefit from disbanding their entire Army and building on Armor or Mechs and teching into technology for those or Air and use Axis Minor or German units as Garrisons. In fact this is likely my next META strategy for them. And believe you will not like it. Cohen_Sith didn't like facing my strength 15 Italian Armor in '42 when it rolled into Moscow. You won't either... Now if I had 4 or 5 of those I am going to build a HUGELY Ahistorical Tank Korp.

That with it's Air Force has more value than 10 20 HP mini Corps.

Spain has 30 strengths, Yugo does... Someone will figure out how to make Italy worth it. As I've mentioned above but you just will complain about it. Trust me it is doable!

P.S. You're saying she doesn't have the oil for that, trust me it can be made somewhere... And Armor Mechs are reactionary units in some instances that hold lines and then attack when you desire. They can be conservative oil users in the right hands. And really the Italian Navy can go to the mothball(it's useless vs Carriers or land Based Air after a certain point)

[Hairog]

ORIGINAL: Hoyt Burrass

ORIGINAL: Hairog
The suggestion at the time was to break up a bunch of corps into divisions and put them all over the map in vulnerable locations. It didn't seem like a good solution at the time and it still doesn't.

But I isn't that exactly what the Germans ended up doing?...low quality, coastal garrisons...Volksgrenadiers and Ost troops?

So you want to play a game that chases partisans and spends much of your time moving garrisons around? That's not the game I bought

There should be some kind of criteria. A dozen suicide missions in a couple of turns to screwup supply lines is not cool, it's gamey. One invasion had to go from the Rumania all way across the Black Sea and captured a port past the Russian Black Sea Fleet unescorted.

I agree with having to man the defenses in Calis but not in Nororossiysk or Bone when the fighting is 1000 miles away. Suicide missions on a division scale are not sound strategy.

How about handling every convoy? Now that sounds like fun. [>:]

[James Taylor]

This is really about a garrisoning capacity for the Italians, not to buff their infantry corps. Italian infantry corps = 2 divisions for breakdown feature, that is all.

It helps with the defense of Italy's coastline and obviously partisan suppression in the other theaters.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar
Now if I had 4 or 5 of those I am going to build a HUGELY Ahistorical Tank Korp.

I did this with the Russians in my game vs. Flaviusx and what I found was it was prohibitively expensive to repair battle damage with such a force. With Italy your all tank army will be a glass hammer, good for one use only. Once battle gets underway in earnest you'll never manage to replace losses fast enough to keep your lines intact.

German lend lease will help, but that's money Germany will need if fighting is into the expensive grind of mid-late war attrition fighting. Italy simply lacks staying power in a fight no matter what you might do.

Jim

[Flaviusx]

The flipside of that game is that with my Italians I built out a couple of alpini corps, a couple of more planes, and otherwise spammed lots and lots of trash Italian infantry, right up to their logistical pool.

And you know what?

I was happy with that. It worked fine. Held on to Italy for the entire game.

Trash Italian infantry is still quite useful for garrisons. A small elite composed of the mech and mountain troops can be used for special tasks, but doesn't exceed the Italian economy's abilities. The real luxury item was the larger air force, but I tried to deploy it places where it wouldn't run into heavy combat, but rather deny the allies easy naval passage. I did end up having to use the fighters against the British eventually, but it was manageable.

Italy doesn't have to be some kind of superpower to be useful. You have to accept their limits and play with those.

[battlevonwar]

Flavius your strategy worked against a particular opponent with a particular strategy, which I have used and it has not really hurt but not really worked all that effectively.

The French didn't counter attack the Germans either and managed to kill half a million of them as they do in Warplan. Neither did the British win in North Africa or the Battle of the Atlantic.(they got help as the Italians could of gotten) I like 'what if scenarios within a reasonable level of belief'.

Given the Grand Commander is you and not the Abysmal Italian leadership and you have the options you desire why not make most effective use of it's Logistical Pool other than garrison units that aren't so effective. Within the game the two nations are bound together and in an ETO situation it's even worse. You lose Italy you could lose the game.

Your strategy may fail against an adept Allied Player. I have several ideas for Italy that I think would be more effective but we would all have to run them to see. Those trash infantry would be good in a war of attrition which is rarely the case in PBEM.

[Flaviusx]

It is not obvious to me that building a large Italian mech army is "effective."

There is only so much oil to go around, and I'd rather be using that oil for German units.

As for how "effective" my strategy was. Well, it worked. I won. I didn't have to do anything silly, either, I mostly played it historical. No Sea Lion. No Axis Yugoslavia. Barbarossa in 41. I switched over to defense in the last couple of years, held on to my gains, and that was that. I was astonished at how large the German economy could get, though. At one point it was over 600 points a turn and I was banking thousands of points of production. Germany and Italy both built out their entire logistical pools. Germany may have had the single largest economy in the game, bigger than even the USA. The allies eventually got a 3-2 production edge, but too little, too late.

The Axis doesn't have to anything crazy to win here and I think the game is very forgiving for them. The real challenge is the Allies. It's why I haven't played the Germans since. I am still trying to figure out how to win with the Allies against any kind of decent opponent.

[Michael T]

40 more UK production will help. Along with the new port rules.

Still needed though is a line drawn through Tank Corp landing on beaches in 40/41.

[battlevonwar]

Flavius,

I have lost only 1 Axis game so far and I will be honest with you I was exhausted and made several errors in that game. I lost convoys from the Baltic, I didn't secure my German Back Door and I banged around Greece. My builds were a little off... I never performed Sea Lion either as I find it dull.
Allies take a very cautious player early, one thinks out what they will do and doesn't give away anything free. They cannot really risk anything in a classical strategy till late '41. As it stands now...

Italy that is played inflexible is giving away a free resource. If you gave her 30 strength she would have to fulfill a long term role as well as modded down amphibious actions. I'd rather 1/5th the Army size with 3 Xs(with time,tech,truck,XP double this or triple this) the combat power. You see 4 20 strength Italian Small Corps cannot be selectively worked into something that can do much. 3 Armor say would project 3 times the combat power in an offensive at least. In the early parts of the War it would be superior and in 1 Hex later in the war it would be superior... It's would leave the country vulnerable if not defended. Oil is never an issue !!! Only with a beginner.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
The Axis doesn't have to anything crazy to win here and I think the game is very forgiving for them.

My biggest take away from our game was the fact Overlord can't work unless the allies manage to cripple Germany's economy from day one and keep it crippled. In a no diplomacy game, there will be no supply locations left in Europe for the western allies to use as a supply source so you'll be going it with port supply and trucks alone.

A fully built out German army can easily beat off the comparatively small force that the allies will be able to feed ashore. So keeping Germany from ever reaching its logistic cap should be the main focus of the allies from day one.

I don't think this is much of an issue yet because so few games reach late game. Once games start making it into 44+ I think this will become a major concern.

As to Italy, I never really focused on it after the bugged mess at Sardinia, so a massed Italian inf corp defense wasn't really tested. Once pressed Tunisia went down fast but that was probably due to supply rules.

Also allied tech fell so far behind (because I didn't know about the magic 4 points until far too late in game) that I really had problems trying to take the fight to the axis. A better played match would have probably looked a lot different in Italy.

Jim

[Michael T]

A fully built out German army can easily beat off the comparatively small force that the allies will be able to feed ashore. So keeping Germany from ever reaching its logistic cap should be the main focus of the allies from day one.

I don't think this is much of an issue yet because so few games reach late game. Once games start making it into 44+ I think this will become a major concern.

This is my feeling as well. Which is why I would have preferred a nerf of German production rather than a buff of UK production. The port supply limits the Allied army in Europe. So the Allied player must find ways to reduce the Army that the Germans will be able mass in France from 43 on.

[battlevonwar]

Michael T,

You forget the only factors involved which the Russians require to provide their own weight mutually. Until there is a balance between East-West Strengths not 1 way or the other way completely at some crisis point where the vice crushes the Axis the reality of this game will not be felt. I have felt that vice in '42. So it is doable. . . The Allies can use lots of different ports all over the place! Though the Russians have to be able to deal a death blow like a Stalingrad.

[MagicMissile]

Yes, I also think that maybe instead of buffing British economy toning down possibly everyones economy but Germany the most and Russia the least might be the way to go. I want more desperation and more attrition in general. I want every turn to have a nail biting choice wether to upgrade units, replace strength in units or build a precious new unit. I don´t think the question should be when will I reach the logistic cap. I think the choice should be an army at logistic cap but with most units not at full strength or build a smaller army under logistic cap but where you can afford to replace the strength points in the units. I don´t think you should be able to have it all that is a full strength army at full logistic cap.


Again we don´t have that much to go on but we have BurnsvsFlaviusx AAR where Flaviusx himself said he had so many resources he barely knew what to do with them just building trucks and AA then we have the Decline and downfall AAR. A bit of a special case but Germany could find the production to send to Finland so Finland could build 1945 fighters while facing the combined might of USA and USSR. I am sorry but I feel Germany should never be in that position nor any other country except possibly the USA. So I think there might be a case to argue that all countries build up too quickly and the combined production might be too high


Also in my own game as the Axis vs Tyrone. In June 1941 I had a production of 450 I opened up the 1944 scenario for the first time and US economy is 500 in June 44. Is it reasonable that Germany should have 90% of US economy but 3 years earlier? Seems a bit too much to me. Especially since there seems not to be enough attrition of the German forces. In my other game where I am Allied, Tyrone has conquered a lot of European Russia (see the AAR Tyrone vs Magicmissile) at the cost of about 8+-1 turn of June 41 production. I don´t mind that Germany can conquer so much territory but it cannot be that cheap. A few units have been worn down but for the most part no problem that I have seen just a picnic in the park. Which the historical Barbarossa certainly was not.


That is why I suggest Soviet economy be toned down the least because I don´t understand how you are supposed to win a war of attrition when you take anywhere from 1:1 to 5:1 in losses in every combat but have an economy that is, depending on how well the German do, somewhere between 50-65% of the German economy and with lend lease that can ofc be improved a bit. So you probably can get into 70-85% range. But that is still not near enough to win a war of attrition with inferior forces. And maximum lend lease drains the western allies quite a bit.


Another advantage with toning down all economies is that the western allies build up would be slowed down too because admittedly I feel the Western allies are a bit on speed as well. Anyway just an idea to think of. But it won´t be an easy thing to figure out and to find the right balance.


Sorry for the long post and I will also state that I can be wrong in my conclusions. I have not yet completed a whole campaign yet not even vs the AI so my knowledge is mostly what I read in the forum and what I am learning in my ongoing PBEM games.

/MM

[PanzerMike]

I just played some turns of the 1944 scenario as the Allies with the latest beta 5e to see how the changed mechanics work. It was the first time I did an Overlord in the game period. It was real easy.

The Allies have plenty of transports and invasion vessels. I stormed ashore, blasting all German units with my overwhelming air Force and conquered a few ports in no time. The German AI quickly withdrew from the coast. I realize that IRL the Allies needed only two months or 7 or 8 gameturns to reach the German border. This seems not that hard in 1944 scenario vs the AI. I don't yet have any experience yet on the supply troubles the Allies may experience on reaching the German border.

I do feel that the unlimited number of air attacks on single units is VERY powerful indeed. Nothing can withstand the sledgehammer from the skies. No elite SS panzercorps, nothing.

Another thing (nothing to do with invasions) is manpower. There is talk of balancing the economies, but there is also manpower. After fixing the double dip bug, there is plenty of MP to go around. This may also have to toned down. Alvaro is aware of this, but solid data from plenty of games is probably needed before changing MP. A strong German economy but short of manpower in 1943/1944 will severely hamstring them (and the Soviets should be wary of this as well).

[MagicMissile]

ORIGINAL: PanzerMike



Another thing (nothing to do with invasions) is manpower. There is talk of balancing the economies, but there is also manpower. After fixing the double dip bug, there is plenty of MP to go around. This may also have to toned down. Alvaro is aware of this, but solid data from plenty of games is probably needed before changing MP. A strong German economy but short of manpower in 1943/1944 will severely hamstring them (and the Soviets should be wary of this as well).

I agree even my Russians after the bad summer of 41 still sits at 89% MP so doesnt seem to be a huge deal. Also oil is interesting. If less oil you can have the counters but maybe not use all of them every turn. I find it a bit interesting that when Alvaro (I am guessing) designed the 1941 campaign he gives the Germans 240-ish oil at the start of the campaign. In my own game as Axis I have 700 something in june 41. Quite a difference which I cannot quite explain.

/MM

[PanzerMike]

The game was balanced with the double dip bug. Only recently it was discovered and fixed like it should have been. But the fix has altered any balance previously achieved with the active bug. I have no doubt MP will be toned down, but how much is another matter. Not easy getting it right again I guess.

[AlvaroSousa]

I was planning on reducing manpower production by 25%.

The double dip bug was on reinforcements which doubled manpower costs.

[Flaviusx]

It's funny because I never noticed that double dip bug playing as the German. I was always able to keep my manpower over 50%, sometimes just barely, but did it. It did reign me in and made me play more defensively because I was watching manpower like a hawk by late 1942 or so which is when it began getting sketchy.

It felt right, ironically.

[Michael T]

The bug was killing my Brits.