OT: F4U Corsair

[Scott_USN]

Amazing story, I had not heard of this before until I was looking up the F4U.

https://youtu.be/Cuo1sia2-EI

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I was just watching a show on the history channel, that featured an interview with Robin Olds.

He stated quite firmly that in WW2, flying a P38, "I could out maneuver the 109 at the altitudes we flew".

The show at least loosely referred to an ME-109 wit 1 x 30mm and 2 x MG armament, but it was by no means clear if Olds was talking about one of the heavy hitter sub-types with diminished performance.

It will depend a lot on what version of P-38 he fought against what version of 109. Early P-38s were not that great in Europe/ Mediterranean and were mostly outclassed by 109s and 190s

Also, he likely faced a 109-G6 as this was the most numerous version built and it is the 1st that allows for the 30mm motor cannon; I doubt he could had outmaneuvered a late war 109-K4 or 109-G14/ G10

He could outturn any Bf-109 below 15,000 feet. Above 20,000 feet it would depend on whether he was flying a P-38F/H/G or a P-38J/L.

But trying to compare one fighter type against another of the same generation is somewhat pointless (unless the speed differential is vast). There are so many variables, especially individual pilot skill and experience. At his peak, Robin Olds could have taken on any Bf-109 while flying a P-39, or could have been shot down by a Ki-27 Nate while flying a P-51, if he was having a bad day. (Tommy McGuire stalled his P-38 in a hard turn at less than 300 mph and 200 ft while still carrying his drop tanks).

Most important was that Luftwaffe training had deteriorated severely by mid 1944, and the few remaining aces faced overwhelming numbers, such that survival became more important than victories. And an inexperienced pilot trying to fly a Bf-109G, or K, was often asking for trouble -- a Luftwaffe test pilot described the handling characteristics of the later Bf-109s during a landing approach as "malicious."

If I remember correctly, Tommy McGuire was shot down by a one eyed pilot [:-] named Sakai . . . [X(]

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: DConn

You can't be serious about the "ugly duckling." javascript:void(AddText('[:D]')) Probably one of the best-looking WW2 fighers IMHO (surpassed only by the Spitfire and maybe the P-51)!

I agree.

[bomccarthy]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury



It will depend a lot on what version of P-38 he fought against what version of 109. Early P-38s were not that great in Europe/ Mediterranean and were mostly outclassed by 109s and 190s

Also, he likely faced a 109-G6 as this was the most numerous version built and it is the 1st that allows for the 30mm motor cannon; I doubt he could had outmaneuvered a late war 109-K4 or 109-G14/ G10

He could outturn any Bf-109 below 15,000 feet. Above 20,000 feet it would depend on whether he was flying a P-38F/H/G or a P-38J/L.

But trying to compare one fighter type against another of the same generation is somewhat pointless (unless the speed differential is vast). There are so many variables, especially individual pilot skill and experience. At his peak, Robin Olds could have taken on any Bf-109 while flying a P-39, or could have been shot down by a Ki-27 Nate while flying a P-51, if he was having a bad day. (Tommy McGuire stalled his P-38 in a hard turn at less than 300 mph and 200 ft while still carrying his drop tanks).

Most important was that Luftwaffe training had deteriorated severely by mid 1944, and the few remaining aces faced overwhelming numbers, such that survival became more important than victories. And an inexperienced pilot trying to fly a Bf-109G, or K, was often asking for trouble -- a Luftwaffe test pilot described the handling characteristics of the later Bf-109s during a landing approach as "malicious."

If I remember correctly, Tommy McGuire was shot down by a one eyed pilot [:-] named Sakai . . . [X(]

Read Martin Caiden, Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38 (Ballantine, 1971), pp. 310-11. On Jan 7, 1945, McGuire led a flight of four P-38s that got into a fight with Shoichi Sugita, an 80-kill ace. Sugita caught McGuire's flight unaware, but was then caught in the middle of a Lufberry circle. At 200 ft, the circle scattered and Sugita got on the tail of one of the P-38s. McGuire turned too tight while trying to come to the aid of his squadron mate and stalled.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

Would have the ME262 really turned the tide of the Red Army - especially into Romanian Oil fields?

The irony is that the Jumo 004 ran on J2 produced from coal, and didn't need high octane avgas.

True, but by mid to late '44, even the synthetic fuels were in jeopardy due to Allied bombing.

Even without any interruption of the process, synthetics were not going to solve Germany's fuel problems. I don't recall the exact numbers, but it took multiple tons of coal to produce one ton of fuel. Along with other demands for coal, Germany just couldn't produce enough to meet all needs.

[Ian R]

But a least they could produce diesel or J2 or whatever was needed.

They could not afford to produce avgas at the high octane levels that effectively boosted allied fighter performance.

I recall that a Ki-100 was test flown, in the US, post war, with the high octane juice that was beyond Japan's manufacturing capacity. I have a vague recollection that its performance was way better than in IJA service.

[RangerJoe]

I recall that a Prince of Romania filled his car's fuel tank with fuel from a downed US bomber. He burned out his engine.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I recall that a Prince of Romania filled his car's fuel tank with fuel from a downed US bomber. He burned out his engine.

Well, avgas is of a higher octane, and has a tendency to do that to other type engines. Read a story once where Patton did the same with some German avgas his units captured. They too had engine problems.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I recall that a Prince of Romania filled his car's fuel tank with fuel from a downed US bomber. He burned out his engine.

Well, avgas is of a higher octane, and has a tendency to do that to other type engines. Read a story once where Patton did the same with some German avgas his units captured. They too had engine problems.

He also captured some that was supposed to go to another army. A supply officer received a medal the next day . . .

[rustysi]

He also captured some that was supposed to go to another army. A supply officer received a medal the next day . . .

[:D]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

He also captured some that was supposed to go to another army. A supply officer received a medal the next day . . .

[:D]

What!? Didn't Monty catch on to who dunnit?

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: rustysi

He also captured some that was supposed to go to another army. A supply officer received a medal the next day . . .

[:D]

What!? Didn't Monty catch on to who dunnit?

I think Ike said something about it.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: rustysi



[:D]

What!? Didn't Monty catch on to who dunnit?

I think Ike said something about it.

Patton reportedly used to get his artillery spotter planes to locate the POL convoys in the Com-Z.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy



What!? Didn't Monty catch on to who dunnit?

I think Ike said something about it.

Patton reportedly used to get his artillery spotter planes to locate the POL convoys in the Com-Z.

Wouldn't surprise me if he did.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




I think Ike said something about it.

Patton reportedly used to get his artillery spotter planes to locate the POL convoys in the Com-Z.

Wouldn't surprise me if he did.

A good Cavalry officer needs good intelligence. Observe and report!

[Ian R]

The source of that story is D'Este's "A Genius for War". Page 651.

Muller [Third Army G4 Col Walter J 'Maud' Muller] and his supply officers resembled Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves. They became masters at hijacking supplies and sending out raiding parties to relieve First Army supply dumps of whatever was not nailed down. Light aircraft were sent on reconnaissance missions to locate fuel dumps suitable for "attack"....

Muller was a legendary scavenger, and his supply officers were regarded somewhat as licensed pirates. They were understood to rove back as far as the ports, where it was said they not only misrepresented themselves as coming from other armies but brought with them truckloads of souvenirs - German flags and weapons - for purposes of barter, garnering steaks and fresh eggs as well as gasoline and ammunition..

Edit: the bit about diverting a battalion of gas tankers includes GSP writing "... this is not war but it is magnificent" .

When First Army complained, Patton denied it. As D'Este puts it, it was coincidental that several clever young quartermaster officers were promoted soon afterward.

Also, I reckon Maud Miller was the inspiration for Milo Minderbinder. At one point, Third Army was operating its own captured German ammunition factory.

[BBfanboy]

Gotta make ammo for all those captured German Lugers and other weapons!