- I'd cut out some R&D for the 5c Zero and put it towards another late-war airframe. Shinden would be my suggestion, as its a bit more resilient than the jet fighter. The Sam is essential but it falls off big time as the war progresses.
- The B7A2 should be on your list, excellent in either the dive bomber or torpedo bomber role.
Other than that, looks good.
IJA:
- Research the Peggy (T) only, no need to do the regular version as well. The (T) will carry the same bombload regardless.
- I would skip the Tojo, just isn't worthwhile as it falls off a cliff and its role can be filled by the Nick, as you note.
- Frank and Randy both good choices.
- I like the Ki-100 Tony to bulk out the IJA, and you can get it quite early with chaining it from earlier Tony models.
- The Frank and Randy won't be able to hold the line in the late-war, so I'd add a later war fighter to the mix as well. Take your pick of the Ki-83, Ki-94-II or the Ki-201. IMO the 83 is the best bang for your buck.
- IJA night fighter?
- Ki-48IIb Lily isn't there, but if you're not R&Ding it, it's worth waiting till 1/43 to produce. Only IJA dive bomber and helps a lot with anti-shipping.
- Consider Ki-74 Patsy for late-war. 36 hexes of range, which can put a lot of the Allied rear areas in danger (and amazing for kamikaze strikes).
Happy to discuss more if you'd like.
Hi [:)]
Thanks for your reply.
Re: Shinden - I'll have a look and think on facs.
Grace - sorry yes I omitted that but it is on my excel list. User error[:)]
Peggy T - ok thanks.
Tojo IIC - even this model? getting this in early mid-43 should make it a decent one to keep me going on land (with the Oscar late models) until the Frank?
Ki-83 = yeah I always loved this in my previous games. I'll add[:)]
IJA NF - Considering Nickd until RandyC late war?
Lily DB - my concern, and hence not including it, was the weak payload?
Patsy - assumed was worth putting more R&D into Peggy T than diverting to this too?
Shame some planes like the Frank and Sam have no previous planes you can research and convert to them but c'est la vie.
Thoughts?
Well, not exactly. You get to the Ki-84r through (either) the Ki-84a or the Ki-84b. As the -a model comes into existence much sooner than either the -b or the -r model, why not 'double' your factories to research the Ki-84a and start producing it with half your factories when you get there? Then switch over the other half your factories (before they start construction of -a) to the -r down the line.
When you switch them over, they should be at 100% research repair status and can immediately start cranking out research points on the -r unit. Otherwise, you'll be waiting on your -r research factories for much longer than you need to do so.
Same idea with Ki-43. Start with 5 research factories towards the IIa as an example. When you get there, keep 2x factories for construction and rotate the remaining ones up the line. You should be able to go anywhere on the chain you want at that point with no factory damage since they're all in the same research tree sequentially. I will have 1 factory research Ki-43 III and two research Ki-43 IV. Now you can be completing research on these units in early-mid 1942 and effectively 'pull them forward' much sooner than if you started the game researching the Ki-43 IV organically from the get go.
I use this 'research tree bonus' on all lines that start with an early war 'progenitor' model in the same family. You're on target with the Rufe-A6M5 line, but you'll probably want A6M5 before you wait for A6M5c.
My personal favorite is to do this on the Ki-44 line. Start with 8 factories for the Ki-44 IIa. Research it until all Ki-44-IIa factories are 100% repaired. Then switch some of them up the chain to Ki-44-IIc. You can forego the -IIb as it sucks. You can be doing research on a late 1944 aircraft in early-mid 1942. With the engine bonus and several factories researching it, you can pull it into the Fall of 1942. I've done this with my game and I think the Ki-44-IIc will be a mainstay in my IJAAF for 1943 (while I'm banging away on Ki-84a research).
This is a weird concept that lots of newcomers don't get. Please confirm that you follow this line of reasoning, as it's fundamental to getting late war aircraft *years* earlier than scheduled.
Thanks [:)] I understand this totally. I played for 6 years but just not for the last few so a bit rusty[:)]
I meant specifically with Frank and Sam since there's no 42 or 43 models I can research before to speed up etc.
In one of my two PBEMs I have roughly this setting:
- 8 factories to A6M8 straight from Rufe. I will put A6M5/A6M5c in escort on CVs later on when it comes online naturally. I want a good CAP ASAP, though. Engine bonus.
- 8 factories on the Oscar line. I research each plane but I do produce only the -Ic, the -IIa and the -IV.
- 6 factories on the Tojo. I get the initial Tojo-IIa and then I skip directly to the final Tojo-IIc. I produce very few Tojo-IIa.
- 16 factories on the Frank-b. I wanted to try to go for it instead of -a and then -r as usual.
- 6 factories on Jack. I am a strong proponent of George but I wanted something new in my lineup.
- 8 factories on the Judy. Straight to Judy-IV once they're repaired.
- Few factories here and there. Most of the remaining ones are on the Pegy(T).
Production in mid-42:
- 100 A6M2 (factories closed 30% of the time)
- 150 Oscar-Ic (factories closed 30% of the time)
- 120 Helen-IIa
- 50 long range Nell
- 20 Emily
- 5 Mavis-TR
- 20 Thalia
- 35 Nate (until engines finish)
- 20 Ida (same as Nate)
- 50 Jake (FP groups around resized)
- 50 Kate
- 50 Val
- 30 Dinah-II (until engines finish)
- 50 Nick
- 30 Lily
- 50 Sally
- 20 Glen (until engines finish)
- 15 Ann (until engines finish)
- 20 Rufe (Rufe groups resized to 24 each)
Rationale behind the production is to have a strong potential production but not wast HI. I do the whole Oscar line and it's gonna be my SR fighter for most of the war, so I am somehow fine in having very large factories. A6M2 will be phased out on CVs by A6M8 relatively quickly, but I keep the factory closed and switch it back to production once the SenBaku comes online, since you can upgrade the A6M2 factory to Sen Baku and then to A6M8.
I do produce huge amounts of bombers 2E and I advice against it. Simply, I have extremely demanding land campaigns around the map. In my other PBEM I produce 200 Helen-IIa per-month and I am unable to keep groups at strength now in mid-43.
Generally, I like to have deep pools of planes I know I'm gonna use anyway. In this way I can focus my production on some a/c for a while and then change the factory output to something different once I know that the pool I created is gonna last for the war.
In other words, I extensively produce in "lots" rather than in "flows". So far, everything fine. In the above PBEM we are at like 01-aug-42 and I have 400k HI points in the bank even if I have expanded NavShipyard to 1.700
In the other one I'm sailing over 1.5M HI in mid-43 even if I produce many bombers (something like 350 2E per-month) and fighters (400 per-month) and I have expanded vehicles to 350.
What I mean is that you can do whatever you want, just, be extremely careful supply-wise.
Buonasera! Grazie. It's good to get different view on R&D and production[:)]
From previous knowledge my opponent (my Dad) is quite conservative in his play so I don't think I'll need a mass expansion of all current production models. I'd rather just produce what I need to achieve my 1942 aims and save as much HI as I can for the 'fun'.
As such my current production plans are:
A6M2 - 60-90
Oscar 1C - 60-90
Sally IIa - 60-90 (was planning to produce Helen's when they come around naturally)
Kate2 - 30-60
Val - 30-60
C5M2 - 10
Jakes - 45-60
Nate - use up engines
G3M2 - 30
G4M - 30
Mavis - 10
Dinah II - 10
Tina - 10
Sally Transport - 10
- I'd cut out some R&D for the 5c Zero and put it towards another late-war airframe. Shinden would be my suggestion, as its a bit more resilient than the jet fighter. The Sam is essential but it falls off big time as the war progresses.
- The B7A2 should be on your list, excellent in either the dive bomber or torpedo bomber role.
Other than that, looks good.
IJA:
- Research the Peggy (T) only, no need to do the regular version as well. The (T) will carry the same bombload regardless.
- I would skip the Tojo, just isn't worthwhile as it falls off a cliff and its role can be filled by the Nick, as you note.
- Frank and Randy both good choices.
- I like the Ki-100 Tony to bulk out the IJA, and you can get it quite early with chaining it from earlier Tony models.
- The Frank and Randy won't be able to hold the line in the late-war, so I'd add a later war fighter to the mix as well. Take your pick of the Ki-83, Ki-94-II or the Ki-201. IMO the 83 is the best bang for your buck.
- IJA night fighter?
- Ki-48IIb Lily isn't there, but if you're not R&Ding it, it's worth waiting till 1/43 to produce. Only IJA dive bomber and helps a lot with anti-shipping.
- Consider Ki-74 Patsy for late-war. 36 hexes of range, which can put a lot of the Allied rear areas in danger (and amazing for kamikaze strikes).
Happy to discuss more if you'd like.
Hi [:)]
Thanks for your reply.
Re: Shinden - I'll have a look and think on facs.
Grace - sorry yes I omitted that but it is on my excel list. User error[:)]
Peggy T - ok thanks.
Tojo IIC - even this model? getting this in early mid-43 should make it a decent one to keep me going on land (with the Oscar late models) until the Frank?
Ki-83 = yeah I always loved this in my previous games. I'll add[:)]
IJA NF - Considering Nickd until RandyC late war?
Lily DB - my concern, and hence not including it, was the weak payload?
Patsy - assumed was worth putting more R&D into Peggy T than diverting to this too?
Thanks
On the Tojo, I just think it dies off as a competitive airframe after 1943, and that the R&D is better invested in better aircraft. That does require a change in air doctrine, as the meta for some players is a big Tojo loadout to fight in 1942 and 1943. However, I've found you can plug the gap with Oscars and Nicks sufficiently.
The argument on Lily's having a weak loadout is technically correct, as the 100kg bombs are on the weak side. They struggle to punch through the deck armour of anything in the CL to BB range. CV's are a mixed bag, depending on class. The most common Allied CV-type ships are the CVE/CVL and they've all naught for deck armour.
In my view that's an acceptable trade off as soft-skinned ships tend to be the big VP piñatas and the 100kgs do just fine against those. Even against the ships with solid deck armour, the 100kgs tend to tear up guns and radar to boot.
In one of my two PBEMs I have roughly this setting:
- 8 factories to A6M8 straight from Rufe. I will put A6M5/A6M5c in escort on CVs later on when it comes online naturally. I want a good CAP ASAP, though. Engine bonus.
- 8 factories on the Oscar line. I research each plane but I do produce only the -Ic, the -IIa and the -IV.
- 6 factories on the Tojo. I get the initial Tojo-IIa and then I skip directly to the final Tojo-IIc. I produce very few Tojo-IIa.
- 16 factories on the Frank-b. I wanted to try to go for it instead of -a and then -r as usual.
- 6 factories on Jack. I am a strong proponent of George but I wanted something new in my lineup.
- 8 factories on the Judy. Straight to Judy-IV once they're repaired.
- Few factories here and there. Most of the remaining ones are on the Pegy(T).
Production in mid-42:
- 100 A6M2 (factories closed 30% of the time)
- 150 Oscar-Ic (factories closed 30% of the time)
- 120 Helen-IIa
- 50 long range Nell
- 20 Emily
- 5 Mavis-TR
- 20 Thalia
- 35 Nate (until engines finish)
- 20 Ida (same as Nate)
- 50 Jake (FP groups around resized)
- 50 Kate
- 50 Val
- 30 Dinah-II (until engines finish)
- 50 Nick
- 30 Lily
- 50 Sally
- 20 Glen (until engines finish)
- 15 Ann (until engines finish)
- 20 Rufe (Rufe groups resized to 24 each)
Rationale behind the production is to have a strong potential production but not wast HI. I do the whole Oscar line and it's gonna be my SR fighter for most of the war, so I am somehow fine in having very large factories. A6M2 will be phased out on CVs by A6M8 relatively quickly, but I keep the factory closed and switch it back to production once the SenBaku comes online, since you can upgrade the A6M2 factory to Sen Baku and then to A6M8.
I do produce huge amounts of bombers 2E and I advice against it. Simply, I have extremely demanding land campaigns around the map. In my other PBEM I produce 200 Helen-IIa per-month and I am unable to keep groups at strength now in mid-43.
Generally, I like to have deep pools of planes I know I'm gonna use anyway. In this way I can focus my production on some a/c for a while and then change the factory output to something different once I know that the pool I created is gonna last for the war.
In other words, I extensively produce in "lots" rather than in "flows". So far, everything fine. In the above PBEM we are at like 01-aug-42 and I have 400k HI points in the bank even if I have expanded NavShipyard to 1.700
In the other one I'm sailing over 1.5M HI in mid-43 even if I produce many bombers (something like 350 2E per-month) and fighters (400 per-month) and I have expanded vehicles to 350.
What I mean is that you can do whatever you want, just, be extremely careful supply-wise.
ITAKLinus can you help me. I was going to go straight for the A6M5c and stop research and turn to production. I keep thinking the A6M8 is too short legged for my CVs. Should i really push all the way to the 8?
I am in scenario 2 as well and I looked at the max range. I don't think that carrier strikes can go beyond 8 hexes, at least to enemy TFs since they can relocate. By the time you get the M8 and if you have not taken out a good part of the Allied carrier force, you need to be rather protective of your carriers. Use them in hit and run raids, maybe even not challenge the Allied DS unless it has been in combat for awhile and the air units are depleted and fatigued. That was part of the problem with the American carriers at Leyte Gulf where 40% of the carrier strength was going for rest under Admiral McCain.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).” ; Julia Child
I am in scenario 2 as well and I looked at the max range. I don't think that carrier strikes can go beyond 8 hexes, at least to enemy TFs since they can relocate. By the time you get the M8 and if you have not taken out a good part of the Allied carrier force, you need to be rather protective of your carriers. Use them in hit and run raids, maybe even not challenge the Allied DS unless it has been in combat for awhile and the air units are depleted and fatigued. That was part of the problem with the American carriers at Leyte Gulf where 40% of the carrier strength was going for rest under Admiral McCain.
I am in scenario 2 as well and I looked at the max range. I don't think that carrier strikes can go beyond 8 hexes, at least to enemy TFs since they can relocate. By the time you get the M8 and if you have not taken out a good part of the Allied carrier force, you need to be rather protective of your carriers. Use them in hit and run raids, maybe even not challenge the Allied DS unless it has been in combat for awhile and the air units are depleted and fatigued. That was part of the problem with the American carriers at Leyte Gulf where 40% of the carrier strength was going for rest under Admiral McCain.
I looked it up under the "i" screen in the upper right.
Joe,
far be it for me to try to tell you anything about this game but i think when it says maximum range it just means how far you can transfer it one way to another base. I agree that number is 11.
i just don't see any way to operate these things farther than 8 hexes and that's extended and with drop tanks. Not ideal for tangling with other fighters.
Later when I have a turn and open the PC on which I play WITPAE, I will give precise numbers regarding my R&D and production in both my active PBEM.
Regarding A6M5/A6M5c vs A6M8.
I generally push for the A6M8 because it is relatively decent against hellcat, while A6M5c is just meh. In line of principle, one should have the A6M8 in CAP and the A6M5c in escort. However, and that's the big problem, if you accelerate in R&D the A6M5, you'll delay a lot the A6M8.
Also, when A6M5c is researched, you'll need to expand brutally a factory in order to meet production needs (consider also that escort fighters die in droves, differently from CAP ones).
Therefore, I prefer to go straight for the A6M8 and let the A6M5c arrive when it's its time. In the meanwile, I can survive with the A6M8 only on my CVs.
Max range of 8 in extended with drop tanks is awful for air combat. On the positive side, though, I don't do many fights at the maximum distance (and not many in general).
I tend to do MANY port raids during the whole game and that's where I found myself a little bit constrained by A6M8 range since in port attack the limits of 8 hexes for the strikes do not apply and I have nicely long legged Judys. That's why I do produce a lot of roughly 200 A6M3a, available in Dec '42, to equip escort/sweepers for port attacks. It's not a big change with respect to the A6M2, but I play with the HR about the 2nd best mvn band and the A6M2 can go at max 20k ft, while the A6M3a at max 31k ft under this rule.
Generally, I think many players put too much efforts on the research of the embarked component of their CVs. In other words, I think it's much better to invest heavily on LBAs rather than the various A6Ms & co. For example, I don't research the Grace. It's great, don't misunderstand me, but in order to have it much earlier than planned you need massive efforts, efforts I find too heavy compared to the benefits.
I am a strong proponent of having a very big amount of Judy-IV on the CVs. They don't sink many big allied ships, but the 800Kg bomb puts out of the game for long time basically any ship. And they're relatively precise. It's all I want and need.
Regarding IJAAF fighters.
I don't like the Tojo. It gives you an edge in '42 and the first half of '43, but in the period you should be able to achieve air superiority in any case.
On the other side it's a plane with very poor armament, very short-legged and with a relatively little mvn.
I am the king of Oscars instead. I really love and enjoy the plane. They die in droves but it has an incredible flexibility.
It has a speed comparable to the one of Tojos (360mph vs 376mph of the Tojos), it is more manoeuvrable, wonderful range, carries two bombs and has 2x20mm cannons, which is a relevant asset.
Indeed, my perception is that the 12.7mm become just useless at certain point and I prefer to carry the 20mm which can shot down both 4Es (struggling) and more robust modern allied planes.
My lineup from mid-43 onwards is Oscar in dozzilions as SR=1 fighter, Frank-r (in one of my PBEM I'm trying to get the Frank-b instead) as SR=3 fighter and George/Jack as complementary fighters. In low-layered CAPs, Oscars are great even if they die in otrageous numbers.
I don't bother producing the Tony either, since it's a very long line, with engines I don't want to produce and they are worse than Oscar in multi-role and worse than Frank in pure FvsF planes.
In one of my two PBEM I did a very trash thing and I have put something like 25 factories at 7 Dec on the Ki-94-II. We'll see how it goes. Now in mid-43 it advanced few months and I have many factories nearing the full reparation. I hope to get it in the first half of '44 / late '43.
I don't research night fighter, also. Just like the Grace, I feel that too much efforts are needed in order to deliver results. Anticipating a plane of few months doesn't change much. Anticipating a plane of 1 year can be a game changer though, but in order to achieve such an anticipation you need way too much R&D spent on the plane.
In general, I also skip entirely the R&D of any kind of bomber. I heavily research the Judy and the Peggy(T) only.
In terms of production I use a peculiar system in which I produce stuff in "lots" rather than in "flows" and it works fine with me.
Generally, I strongly advice a very basic logistics practice. You setup your factory of, say, A6M2 Zero. Then you identify the desired stock level and a band around it. Let's say you produce 100 Zero per-month and you want a stock of 50 Zero +/-10. You keep your factories producing until you reach 60. Then you turn them off. Then, when your stock reaches 40, you re-open them until they reach again 60.
It helps a lot.
Also, never forget that there are uses for everything. For example. You dont really need to produce many Kates, since you should produce the Kate-I instead of larger numbers of the Kate-II. They are the same plane with the difference that the Kate-I has SR=2 and uses an engine you have in the pool. The Kate-II instead has SR=1 but uses the Ha-35, which is in high demand at the beginning of the game.
Therefore, instead of producing say 50 Kate-II, you should produce 25 Kate-II and 25 Kate-I, saving 25 engines per-month.
In the pool there are also many Jean. Use them. The general use is as a trainer, but I have used them on CVs as well. Are they good? No. Are they lethal? Nope. Are they present in the pool and so for f@ck sake I will use them since I'm a stingy Jew? Yeah.
I use IJAAF 1E LBs as a sort of suicide bombers for example. Send those Sonias to port attack on a siege and see them explode. You waste a useless plane, the enemy wastes ammunitions.
Use those trashy Nate in night CAP against B17. They will explode in thousands of pieces, but they'll disrupt enemy's bombing run.
You have old engines in stock? Time to produce Idas and send them to certain death!
Yeah, I'm a blood-thirsty @sshole. Eventually I should play russians...
A6M2 - 60-90
Oscar 1C - 60-90
Sally IIa - 60-90 (was planning to produce Helen's when they come around naturally)
Kate2 - 30-60
Val - 30-60
C5M2 - 10
Jakes - 45-60
Nate - use up engines
G3M2 - 30
G4M - 30
Mavis - 10
Dinah II - 10
Tina - 10
Sally Transport - 10
Thoughts All?
There are few planes in no-rush category. For example, there are only 3 units of C5M2 initially, so your stock should be enough for first months, without extra production. Also, somehow those BABS units, which are part of larger airgroup with fighters part, have pilots starting with Air skill, instead of Recon.
You will probably not need any extra VALs, or transports for some time. I generally leave PETE, IDA, NATE, and THALIA factories as they start, and convert them when new planes shows up without research, or when I need replacements for something I don't produce yet.
With conservative Allies player, you might not need extra ZEROs, or that much bombers. Remember, that you also have some stocks of ANN, and MARY engines. That's why I prefer TOPSY, as they will upgrade for free, when Ha-5 run out.
Yeah. Those numbers are my projected totals but many production has not been expanded yet. I'll see how it goes.....I was always good at sub warfare in my previous games and Poseidon smiles on me again....time to divert KB from near Wake to find and finish her off[:)]
I-16 is a Soviet biplane, right? And the pilot packed three torps on a biplane. What a gyeroy!. Must be a Jap plot to start a war between USA and USSR.
I-16 is a Soviet biplane, right? And the pilot packed three torps on a biplane. What a gyeroy!. Must be a Jap plot to start a war between USA and USSR.
It is a biplane that can also carry a minisub. Now, that is one heck of a feet!
With a fuel storage explosion, the Lady Lex may even be doomed if the fires are bad enough. But she is a tough Lady.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).” ; Julia Child
I looked it up under the "i" screen in the upper right.
Joe,
far be it for me to try to tell you anything about this game but i think when it says maximum range it just means how far you can transfer it one way to another base. I agree that number is 11.
i just don't see any way to operate these things farther than 8 hexes and that's extended and with drop tanks. Not ideal for tangling with other fighters.
Please, tell me if I am in error, wrong or whatever. Just be polite and never call me late for a meal.
A mistake? You have the very large King cut, the smaller Queen cut, then the tiny Miss steak!
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).” ; Julia Child
I am in scenario 2 as well and I looked at the max range. I don't think that carrier strikes can go beyond 8 hexes, at least to enemy TFs since they can relocate.
I believe RangerJoe is right, but this is an 'undocumented feature'. CV naval strikes won't go beyond 8 hexes and this is 'hard coded'-regardless of the ranges of the planes involved.
I am in scenario 2 as well and I looked at the max range. I don't think that carrier strikes can go beyond 8 hexes, at least to enemy TFs since they can relocate.
I believe RangerJoe is right, but this is an 'undocumented feature'. CV naval strikes won't go beyond 8 hexes and this is 'hard coded'-regardless of the ranges of the planes involved.
I clearly remembered I argued few months ago with PaxMondo and others regarding that. Apparently, someone had (consistent?) results in trying to send strikes over the prescribed 8 hexes.
In any case, I feel that relying on that is quite foolish, but that's just my personal perception.
; Julia Child
