OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edition)

[fcooke]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Just don't see how a single seat fighter can manage all that. A two seater with a RIO I can kind of get my head around.

Which is why so much computational power is packed into the F-35.

The modern ide is that smart algorithms do a much better and quicker job than a second pilot/bombardier/navigator whatever, at a cheaper price in the long run too. Main reason why so much development time and cost is involved.

Alfred

You could put a mainframe in it but if someone got the coding wrong - oops. At least another set of human eyes have a chance to correct things. That airbus that went down in the Atlantic a number of years ago depended a little too much on the computers.

I know quite a bit about SW development. The tendency is to over-engineer the product. Which means more code. And with more code more likelyhood that the code has flaws.

But like I said I hope the platform works out. And that we never actually see it in combat.

[fcooke]

My manager's manager was a West Point guy. I don't think he appreciated when I mentioned the early 80s Cav were meant as a speed bump to a potential Warsaw Pack invasion, but he was surprised when I said Sheridans firing shillegahs might cause some damage. He ran a platoon of Sheridans. I think I got some of the spelling wrong.

[RangerJoe]

In the early 80s, the US Cavalry units had M60 tanks, then received M-1 tanks.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: fcooke

My manager's manager was a West Point guy. I don't think he appreciated when I mentioned the early 80s Cav were meant as a speed bump to a potential Warsaw Pack invasion, but he was surprised when I said Sheridans firing shillegahs might cause some damage. He ran a platoon of Sheridans. I think I got some of the spelling wrong.

That is the scenario at the start of WW III in Red Storm Rising - the Sheridans firing and retreating to new prepared positions before the Russian artillery could nail them. But even with the success of the Sheridans and other strikes, the sheer mass of the Soviet armies pushes everything ahead of them.

[RangerJoe]

Half of the armoured vehicles in the Soviet initial forces were broken down. If that ever changed, that would have been a warning to the West.

I thought that Red Storm Rising had the initial Cavalry units with the M-1 tanks. I thought that it was an earlier book about the Third World War that had the Sheridans.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Half of the armoured vehicles in the Soviet initial forces were broken down. If that ever changed, that would have been a warning to the West.

I thought that Red Storm Rising had the initial Cavalry units with the M-1 tanks. I thought that it was an earlier book about the Third World War that had the Sheridans.

You could be right - I read them both about the same time. Easy to mix memories after a few years.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Half of the armoured vehicles in the Soviet initial forces were broken down. If that ever changed, that would have been a warning to the West.

I thought that Red Storm Rising had the initial Cavalry units with the M-1 tanks. I thought that it was an earlier book about the Third World War that had the Sheridans.

You could be right - I read them both about the same time. Easy to mix memories after a few years.

yes, but Red Storm Rising was set later. There was also a 60 minutes thing on the 11th ACR in Germany which patrolled the border. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find it on line.

This Is The Blackhorse (circa 1985)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QReV0Y-yy0M

The video shows M-1 and M-3 vehicles.

[fcooke]

Hmmmm - I will have to poke around this one a little more. He retired as a bird Col, was Cav, and very much in Sheridans. In roughly 2012 I would say he was around 60. I did a little googling about the Sheridans and seems they were in service till 1997, and used as OPFOR until something like 2002/4. And not many of the missiles produced were ever fired.

[RangerJoe]

The airborne still used Sheridans for awhile after the US Cavalry replaced them.

By the way, do you happen to know the full strength of the 11th or 2nd ACR when they were on the border in West Germany?

[Macclan5]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Half of the armored vehicles in the Soviet initial forces were broken down. If that ever changed, that would have been a warning to the West.

.....<SNIP> Red Storm Rising

Excellent point RJ +1

In fact it further emphasizes that military program in Russia / China are not subject to independent scrutiny and too often the truth comes out at a much latter date (and other Nations - pretend democracies as well). Anyone can do a google search of the following: "state of readiness Soviet armored forces in europe 1980"

There are links to: (i) a RAND Corp study (ii) a recently declassified CIA document (iii) a whole host of opinions and conjecture. The key is in certain repetitive phrases from the credible sources: (i) problem with soldier hazing (ii) stagnant officer training (iii) soldier absenteeism / alcoholism (iv) static not innovative set plans (v) ethnic minority issues in the Soviet / Russian armed services (vi) etc etc etc ad nauseum

Turns out the 3:1 or 4:1 Warsaw pact numerical superiority was much less than 'advertised' at the time. The Russian army is by most accounts 'turning this around' in its all volunteer army but it is less than certain it was succeeded. The very static results of the tragic events in the Ukraine suggest the Russians have NOT sorted out all their issues.

This has been repeated generation after generation since WW1. The opponent is not a proficient as advertised and the democracies have the intellectual / industrial / fiscal capital to respond at time of crisis.

--

Red Storm Rising was a very good yarn with some accurate military details; however I am uncertain it can be relied upon as a fully accurate assessment of what might of happened.

Many strategic constraints placed by "the author(s) - TC had a lot of help in that book" - such as no push into Turkey or the Middle East are "plot devices" not realistic scenarios

[RangerJoe]

The Soviets also had an emphasis on items produced, not items maintained. So they would produce the tanks, farm tractors, or whatever but not enough spare parts.

I talked with someone who had been in the Polish Army before he relocated and some of his fall field exercises was harvesting potatoes. So there was that problem as well.

If a Soviet solder got into trouble, his enlistment was extended. I am sure that helped with the morale when then soldiers became too inebriated then got extensions to their enlistments. [;)]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Soviets also had an emphasis on items produced, not items maintained. So they would produce the tanks, farm tractors, or whatever but not enough spare parts.

I talked with someone who had been in the Polish Army before he relocated and some of his fall field exercises was harvesting potatoes. So there was that problem as well.

If a Soviet solder got into trouble, his enlistment was extended. I am sure that helped with the morale when then soldiers became too inebriated then got extensions to their enlistments. [;)]

IIRC, the alcohol for vodka comes from .... potatoes. Looks like a self-sustaining loop there. [:'(]

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Soviets also had an emphasis on items produced, not items maintained. So they would produce the tanks, farm tractors, or whatever but not enough spare parts.

I talked with someone who had been in the Polish Army before he relocated and some of his fall field exercises was harvesting potatoes. So there was that problem as well.

If a Soviet solder got into trouble, his enlistment was extended. I am sure that helped with the morale when then soldiers became too inebriated then got extensions to their enlistments. [;)]

IIRC, the alcohol for vodka comes from .... potatoes. Looks like a self-sustaining loop there. [:'(]

Or it comes from sugar beets.

Of course, sugar cane beer after distillation is also good.

[fcooke]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The airborne still used Sheridans for awhile after the US Cavalry replaced them.

By the way, do you happen to know the full strength of the 11th or 2nd ACR when they were on the border in West Germany?

I don't know what their OOB was. I did read that the AB literally parachuted some Sheridans. Most made it down OK, some did not.

[RangerJoe]

Well, let us just say that those Cavalry regiments were more than a speed bump.

[fcooke]

That could explain the glare that I got from my manager's manager....that said. I need to have my town put a speed bump near my house. It's a 15 MPH posted area due to a 90 degree turn but people take it at 50. I really don't want a car in my living room....

[RangerJoe]

Three ground squadrons each with 3 troops of cavalry, 1 tank company, 1 how battery of 155mm M109s.

The troops had 3 platoons with 4 tanks (M60, then M1) controlled by the platoon sergeant, the scouts had 2 dragon equipped M113s and 2 M901 ITVs with TOWs plus one M113 for the platoon leader. Later, the scouts were put into 2 platoons and the tankers were put into 2 platoons with the same number of vehicles overall. The hq platoon had a GSR M113 and 3 M113 series with 4.2" mortars. The M113s and M901 ITVs were later replaced with Bradleys.

That is without the stinger platoon at HQ troop with any other support. The regiment also had a combat engineering company. Not to mention an Air squadron with Cobras and Kiowas. There were even Air Farce people assigned to call in their people to play with the Soviets.

In the Bekaa Valley in 1982, one M60a1 destroyed 9 T72s starting at a range of 4000 meters with 9 rounds fired. Of course, that was an Israeli sniper tank.

Edited for: three platoons in the cavalry troops, not two! [:@]

[fcooke]

I didn't think an M60 could kill a T72 at that range. Though the Israelis have proven over and and over that they are better trained than their foes.

[fcooke]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Three ground squadrons each with 3 troops of cavalry, 1 tank company, 1 how battery of 155mm M109s.

The troops had 2 platoons with 4 tanks (M60, then M1) controlled by the platoon sergeant, the scouts had 2 dragon equipped M113s and 2 M901 ITVs with TOWs plus one M113 for the platoon leader. Later, the scouts were put into 2 platoons and the tankers were put into 2 platoons with the same number of vehicles overall. The hq platoon had a GSR M113 and 3 M113 series with 4.2" mortars. The M113s and M901 ITVs were later replaced with Bradleys.

That is without the stinger platoon at HQ troop with any other support. The regiment also had a combat engineering company. Not to mention an Air squadron with Cobras and Kiowas. There were even Air Farce people assigned to call in their people to play with the Soviets.

In the Bekaa Valley in 1982, one M60a1 destroyed 9 T72s starting at a range of 4000 meters with 9 rounds fired. Of course, that was an Israeli sniper tank.

Crikey OOB felon [&o]

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: fcooke

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Three ground squadrons each with 3 troops of cavalry, 1 tank company, 1 how battery of 155mm M109s.

The troops had 2 platoons with 4 tanks (M60, then M1) controlled by the platoon sergeant, the scouts had 2 dragon equipped M113s and 2 M901 ITVs with TOWs plus one M113 for the platoon leader. Later, the scouts were put into 2 platoons and the tankers were put into 2 platoons with the same number of vehicles overall. The hq platoon had a GSR M113 and 3 M113 series with 4.2" mortars. The M113s and M901 ITVs were later replaced with Bradleys.

That is without the stinger platoon at HQ troop with any other support. The regiment also had a combat engineering company. Not to mention an Air squadron with Cobras and Kiowas. There were even Air Farce people assigned to call in their people to play with the Soviets.

In the Bekaa Valley in 1982, one M60a1 destroyed 9 T72s starting at a range of 4000 meters with 9 rounds fired. Of course, that was an Israeli sniper tank.

Crikey OOB felon [&o]

All told, that is 53 tanks per ground squadron. A three tank company battalion is 51 tanks. Not to mention the M113/M901s which were then replaced by Bradleys. Each Bradley would have a scout team, not a squad. The three troops had a total of 9 4.2" mortars. That is a little bit of firepower.

M113s would be great for moose hunting. They are supposed to float and usually carry a Ma Deuce. [:D]