OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

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Ian R
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by Ian R »

ORIGINAL: Alamander

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


One other thing about the atomic bombs and the surrender, many of the Americans - and I presume other Allied military personnel - in the Pacific said "Now I know that I will survive."

My grandfather fought in the Pacific. He had the opposite opinion (of course, he was a contrary fellow and often differed in his opinion from others). He felt, throughout his entire life, that Truman was a war criminal and should have been put on trial at Nuremburg. He was of the opinion that that the U.S. could have easily blockaded Japan for a few months and received the same terms without much loss of life. He was opposed, in general, to war all of his life after his experiences in the Pacific.

I thank him for his service.

My ancestors were on the front line, with him.

Was his unit assigned to Downfall?

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tolsdorff
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by tolsdorff »

I once read a (one of the) biography of Nimitz, i forgot which one really. Anyway, he is quoted as saying the following, loosely paraphrased: ".. there was no doubt in the minds of me (Nimitz), spruance, turner, halsey, king even, that the A-bomb was completely unnecessary. It did not play a part in any surrender. but the politicians in Washington wanted to see the effects of the bomb.. " I should look the book up. You can verify it then. The memoirist quoted Nimitz as having said this. He did not want to use this weapon, nor did many of his commanders.

it's got nothing to do at all with the big evil satan.. But the throwing of that bomb had 2 major reasons.

1. Hi Soviet Union, we got a big bomb!
2. see the effects of this weapon when employed on a densely populated area.

There was no other reason to throw it. just another mass murder war crime.
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Alamander
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by Alamander »

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: Alamander

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


One other thing about the atomic bombs and the surrender, many of the Americans - and I presume other Allied military personnel - in the Pacific said "Now I know that I will survive."

My grandfather fought in the Pacific. He had the opposite opinion (of course, he was a contrary fellow and often differed in his opinion from others). He felt, throughout his entire life, that Truman was a war criminal and should have been put on trial at Nuremburg. He was of the opinion that that the U.S. could have easily blockaded Japan for a few months and received the same terms without much loss of life. He was opposed, in general, to war all of his life after his experiences in the Pacific.

I thank him for his service.

My ancestors were on the front line, with him.

Was his unit assigned to Downfall?


At the beginning of the war, he was in charge of an anti-aircraft battery in Trinidad for training. After he had finished training the crews, he was transferred to the seabees, since his father owned a builder's supply and he was sort of an expert in all things construction and engineering. He would not have been in the first wave of any invasion. He was in Phillipines during the final months of the war, and his unit was supporting actions against the remains of Yamashita's army.

I am not sure if they were scheduled for eventual deployment to Japan or not. He did not see much action in the final year of the war, obviously. He did see some before that. He liked to say that they were happy to be rid of him, so he didn't participate in the occupation and was sent home almost immediately after the termination of hostilities.

He did buy a seabee bulldozer on the way home, however, which he maintained and ran until the late 1980s. Built a nursing home with it. Now, my uncles own 12.
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rustysi
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by rustysi »

I will go a little further into the realm of controversy perhaps, and suggest that the bombs were intended as much as a demonstration to the Soviets, as to the Japanese.

Not entirely out of the realm of possibility.
Indeed, the world may have been lucky as events did turn out. If the rather pathetic palace coup known as the “Kyujo Incident” that was attempted just prior to the surrender had garnered more support, its unlikely the emperor would have ever been able to intervene to provide that essential first step in the process of an organized capitulation of Japan's government and armed forces.

I wouldn't classify this as a 'rather pathetic palace coup'. IIRC one of the reasons it probably failed was that an air raid either cut the power or it was turned off because of it.
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I once read a (one of the) biography of Nimitz, i forgot which one really. Anyway, he is quoted as saying the following, loosely paraphrased: ".. there was no doubt in the minds of me (Nimitz), spruance, turner, halsey, king even, that the A-bomb was completely unnecessary. It did not play a part in any surrender. but the politicians in Washington wanted to see the effects of the bomb.. " I should look the book up. You can verify it then. The memoirist quoted Nimitz as having said this. He did not want to use this weapon, nor did many of his commanders.

it's got nothing to do at all with the big evil satan.. But the throwing of that bomb had 2 major reasons.

1. Hi Soviet Union, we got a big bomb!
2. see the effects of this weapon when employed on a densely populated area.

There was no other reason to throw it. just another mass murder war crime.

It as not a war crime.

The major officers may not have liked it but it was 20/20 hindsight from people who did not know the Japanese mindset at the time.

Why use a little hammer if you have a big one.
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mind_messing
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Just think of the situation before the war when the US wanted the Japanese to leave China. Japan may have been willing to leave China but not Manchuria. But the Americans did not mean Manchuria and the Japanese did not ask if the Americans also meant Manchuria. Maybe the whole war in Asia could have been avoided. But that is something else.

One other thing about the atomic bombs and the surrender, many of the Americans - and I presume other Allied military personnel - in the Pacific said "Now I know that I will survive."

Avoiding a general war in Asia would be extremely unlikely. After 1931 Japan had committed itself in a major way to the Asian mainland, and in a way which was at direct loggerheads with the KMT in China.

Irrespective of the outcome of the Chinese Civil War, a military confrontation between China and Japan on the cards, and one that strikes me as likely to have settled into roughly the same situation as it did historically - Japan with the large military advantage but unable to effect a victory.
ORIGINAL: Alamander

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


One other thing about the atomic bombs and the surrender, many of the Americans - and I presume other Allied military personnel - in the Pacific said "Now I know that I will survive."

My grandfather fought in the Pacific. He had the opposite opinion (of course, he was a contrary fellow and often differed in his opinion from others). He felt, throughout his entire life, that Truman was a war criminal and should have been put on trial at Nuremburg. He was of the opinion that that the U.S. could have easily blockaded Japan for a few months and received the same terms without much loss of life. He was opposed, in general, to war all of his life after his experiences in the Pacific.

Did he realize that that blockade in the context of Japan in 1945 was synonymous with "mass starvation"?

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I once read a (one of the) biography of Nimitz, i forgot which one really. Anyway, he is quoted as saying the following, loosely paraphrased: ".. there was no doubt in the minds of me (Nimitz), spruance, turner, halsey, king even, that the A-bomb was completely unnecessary. It did not play a part in any surrender. but the politicians in Washington wanted to see the effects of the bomb.. " I should look the book up. You can verify it then. The memoirist quoted Nimitz as having said this. He did not want to use this weapon, nor did many of his commanders.

To note, all senior naval officers.

What's worth consideration is the inter-service context of the US armed forces in relation to the atomic bomb. The Army Air Force (which is agitating for its own separate branch), just deployed a fearsome new weapon from an exceptionally capable air frame.

Any admiral worth their salt will be downplaying that capability in an environment of post-war cuts to military spending.
it's got nothing to do at all with the big evil satan.. But the throwing of that bomb had 2 major reasons.

1. Hi Soviet Union, we got a big bomb!
2. see the effects of this weapon when employed on a densely populated area.

There was no other reason to throw it. just another mass murder war crime.

As above, is it less criminal to kill approx 200,000 people over the course of two afternoons or a few million via starvation?
Alamander
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by Alamander »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Did he realize that that blockade in the context of Japan in 1945 was synonymous with "mass starvation"?


He was a very brilliant fellow, but he had some strange ideas. I'm not suggesting that he was correct in his assumption, merely stating his opinion as a serviceman in the Pacific.

TBH, my position is that the strategic bombing of population centers, of which the atomic bombs were merely an extension, was a war crime on par with the holocaust or the Bataan death march. That is neither here nor there, however, and my opinions on questions of morality with regard to the inherently dirty business of war are mostly irrelevant if one wants to understand the war, the decisions that were made, and why they were made. As a student of history, these are my primary concerns, and the information that is most relevant to share.
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Alamander
ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Did he realize that that blockade in the context of Japan in 1945 was synonymous with "mass starvation"?


He was a very brilliant fellow, but he had some strange ideas. I'm not suggesting that he was correct in his assumption, merely stating his opinion as a serviceman in the Pacific.

TBH, my position is that the strategic bombing of population centers, of which the atomic bombs were merely an extension, was a war crime on par with the holocaust or the Bataan death march. That is neither here nor there, however, and my opinions on questions of morality with regard to the inherently dirty business of war are mostly irrelevant if one wants to understand the war, the decisions that were made, and why they were made. As a student of history, these are my primary concerns, and the information that is most relevant to share.

If truth is the first casualty of war, innocence is the second - the kind of innocence that thinks it is possible to apply morals to every situation. The one moral imperative in war is to win.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: Alamander
ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Did he realize that that blockade in the context of Japan in 1945 was synonymous with "mass starvation"?


He was a very brilliant fellow, but he had some strange ideas. I'm not suggesting that he was correct in his assumption, merely stating his opinion as a serviceman in the Pacific.

TBH, my position is that the strategic bombing of population centers, of which the atomic bombs were merely an extension, was a war crime on par with the holocaust or the Bataan death march. That is neither here nor there, however, and my opinions on questions of morality with regard to the inherently dirty business of war are mostly irrelevant if one wants to understand the war, the decisions that were made, and why they were made. As a student of history, these are my primary concerns, and the information that is most relevant to share.

There were a lot of "cottage" industries in the civilian areas, area bombing was the only way to target them.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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Alamander
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by Alamander »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

If truth is the first casualty of war, innocence is the second - the kind of innocence that thinks it is possible to apply morals to every situation. The one moral imperative in war is to win.

And yet, "war crimes" trials were held by the victorious powers. It is not I who decided to make moral judgements about the conduct of Second World War or to apply "rules" to the conduct of war. It was a decision taken by the victorious powers. If we are to hold the victorious powers to the same standard that they applied to the vanquished, then the strategic bombing of civilian population centers must be considered in the same light as the massacres of PoWs and civilians orchestrated by Germany and Japan. If not, then it is not "justice" that was sought so much as revenge.
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Jorge_Stanbury
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

vae victis

that said, the Western powers were less guilty of crimes than the Soviets and much less guilty than the Axis
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by fcooke »

As I think we would all agree, the bombs killed fewer people than an invasion would. Or blockade. Even today Japanese culture is very 'Japanese'. Security literally everywhere. Emergency kits at every desk in the office (with rations). But the trains run on time (to the second), and people are very polite. That said, still a big bias against females in the workplace. My team in Tokyo was 75% female because Japanese firms did not want to hire them. It was funny when sales teams came in and wanted to speak to me (most senior guy) and I would direct them to speak to my lead in Japan (female).

Things you learn in life.
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by fcooke »

All that said if you ever get to Japan - Kyoto and the royal island are worth some time to explore.
royal island in Tokyo. palace and all that.

edited to fix silly typo and clarify what royal island I was referring to.
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by fcooke »

This might be getting too political, but in my opinion, the Allies only tried the worst of the worst for war crimes. A few Americans who might have qualified did not survive the war (Sam Dealey, USS Harder). Not sure about other countries. But there was certainly some activity in the Normandy campaign and the battle of the Bulge (both sides). And we won't get started on the Eastern front.
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by fcooke »

Sorry - I messed one up. It was Mush Morton ans the USS Wahoo I meant to refer to.
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: fcooke

This might be getting too political, but in my opinion, the Allies only tried the worst of the worst for war crimes. A few Americans who might have qualified did not survive the war (Sam Dealey, USS Harder). Not sure about other countries. But there was certainly some activity in the Normandy campaign and the battle of the Bulge (both sides). And we won't get started on the Eastern front.
Every country has some skeletons in their closet. Sometimes the world advances better when no one looks too hard.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by Platoonist »

ORIGINAL: fcooke

This might be getting too political, but in my opinion, the Allies only tried the worst of the worst for war crimes. A few Americans who might have qualified did not survive the war (Sam Dealey, USS Harder). Not sure about other countries. But there was certainly some activity in the Normandy campaign and the battle of the Bulge (both sides). And we won't get started on the Eastern front.

You may be thinking of Dudley "Mush" Morton of the Wahoo. I think the only thing Dealy was guilty of, was sinking too many Japanese DDs.
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by fcooke »

yeah P, I figured that out a few minutes after posting. But spot on, the Harder had a thing for DDs.
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by Platoonist »

ORIGINAL: fcooke

yeah P, I figured that out a few minutes after posting. But spot on, the Harder had a thing for DDs.

Gotcha. [8D]

Then of course you have the famous self-incriminating quote by one General Curtis LeMay, the fire-bomber of Japan.

“Killing Japanese didn’t bother me very much at that time, I suppose if we had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.”
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

Post by fcooke »

And Tang is my favorite WW2 sub. She really kicked bottoms (sadly including her own). Good thing O'Kane got off Wahoo when he did.
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