Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk

[Hubert Cater]

Having the source HQ at 0 supply wouldn't work, the source HQ needs to have at least supply >= 1. At least right now with the current rules etc.

[EarlyDoors]

With my new found knowledge that a full-strength HQ is boosted to supply 8 by another hq that is 4 supply hexes away, I had been pulling my hair out at a later scenario in the same game

Again, I am Allies and I'm trying to re-take Cairo

Its March 1944 and the German HQ at Suez must be outputting 8

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/march-44-units.jpg

I can see there is another HQ at Jerusalem, 5 hexes away by road

I have been pounding all the resources by air

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/march-44-resources.jpg

including hitting the boosted HQ with 4 carriers for best part of a year ...its pretty fruitless

So, what will be the supply level of the Turkish Tanks and Cairo Infantry next turn?

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/march-44-turkey-tanks.jpg

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/march-44-cairo-infantry.jpg

By my calculation, the HQ at Suez is beyond the range to be boosted and at best - can put out 5

[EarlyDoors]

However, next turn it is still putting out 8

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/april-44-turkey-tanks-7.jpg

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/april-44-cairo-infantry-6.jpg

The only thing I can think of is that the Suez HQ is boosted by the Jerusalem HQ because it is 4 hexes away if you include the Sea hex

Is this correct? And is this intended ?

[Marcinos1985]

What is supply level of Suez?

[EarlyDoors]

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2. ... ources.jpg

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/march-44-resources.jpg

Suez is zero at end of my turn - it will tick over to 1

I thought for a while that maybe because of the geography the port of Suez did not get blockaded by my adjacent cruiser, so I levelled that as well...to no avail

The only thing I can think is that the 4 hex rule includes sea tiles

[LoneRunner]

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

With my new found knowledge that a full-strength HQ is boosted to supply 8 by another hq that is 4 supply hexes away, I had been pulling my hair out at a later scenario in the same game

Again, I am Allies and I'm trying to re-take Cairo

Its March 1944 and the German HQ at Suez must be outputting 8

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/march-44-units.jpg

I can see there is another HQ at Jerusalem, 5 hexes away by road

I have been pounding all the resources by air

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/march-44-resources.jpg

including hitting the boosted HQ with 4 carriers for best part of a year ...its pretty fruitless

So, what will be the supply level of the Turkish Tanks and Cairo Infantry next turn?

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/march-44-turkey-tanks.jpg

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/march-44-cairo-infantry.jpg

By my calculation, the HQ at Suez is beyond the range to be boosted and at best - can put out 5

Hey Early,
I agree, the supply rules seem way overcomplicated. I noticed that the game date on your screenshot is March 44. That late in the game the German player probably maxed research in logistics. Here's the manual on the supply effect of logistics:

Researching Logistics raises the Minimum Supply Value for HQs. At level 1,
the Minimum Supply Value is 1, and this will rise by 1 for every subsequent
level attained.
So if level 5 Logistics has been attained, then a HQ with a strength value
of 1-4 will have a minimum supply value of 5 even if it has no access to a
supply source.
It is true that this means that you will only really see any benefit if a high
level of Logistics is researched, but this may be of use in a critical situation.

So, my guess is that with level 5 research in logistics, the HQ in Cairo would have a supply value of 5 even though Cairo is only supply level 1. And according to the manual an HQ with supply value of 5 has a supply distribution value of 8. Whew, I can see the value of researching logistics.

Also, you indicated that the boosted HQ could only be 4 supply hexes away. Here's the manual:

Friendly HQs with a supply value of at least 3, will automatically boost the
supply of another friendly HQ that is within supply distribution range.

I'm guessing that the supply distribution range is the range that an HQ can distribute supply to units. That could be up to 8 hexes. Or maybe the supply distribution range is 5 hexes? That's the HQ command range. I have no idea.

Hope that helps.
Lone

[EarlyDoors]

Good call Lonerunner.
I wasn't aware that Logistics had that effect.
I guess its possible that it is boosted by Logistics although my opponent is not sure.
He doesn't think he has Logistics Level 4 and i would be amazed if he has as the Germans have only spent 2850 mpps on R&D by June 44.

[Hubert Cater]

Hi EarlyDoors,

My guess is that the HQ at Jerusalem is boosting the one in the Suez. The distance is 5 land hexes from Jerusalem to the Suez. If your opponent is up for it, ask him to mouse hover or click on the HQ in the Suez and see if a yellow hex appears around the one in Jerusalem.

This will indicate the parent relationship for the HQ in the Suez.

Hubert

[EarlyDoors]

Thanks Hubert

I have asked the question of him ~ he will hopefully reciprocate as he's on the verge of victory

So the maximum distance to boost an HQ is 5 rather than the 4 hexes mistakenly quoted earlier in this thread?
Does it depend upon terrain?

Ok, that makes sense

[LoneRunner]

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

Good call Lonerunner.
I wasn't aware that Logistics had that effect.
I guess its possible that it is boosted by Logistics although my opponent is not sure.
He doesn't think he has Logistics Level 4 and i would be amazed if he has as the Germans have only spent 2850 mpps on R&D by June 44.

Wow, 2,850 MPPs on research by June 44! My last German opponent invested 3,100 MPPs into research by the end of 41, haha.

Maxing Infantry Weapons, Advanced Tanks, Ground Attack, Command & Control, and Industrial Tech uses almost 2,500 MPPs for the Germans. That only left him about 350 MPPs for everything else. I'm guessing he went low tech and slammed all of his MPPs into units.

That must have been an interesting game.

[Hubert Cater]

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

Thanks Hubert

I have asked the question of him ~ he will hopefully reciprocate as he's on the verge of victory

So the maximum distance to boost an HQ is 5 rather than the 4 hexes mistakenly quoted earlier in this thread?
Does it depend upon terrain?

Ok, that makes sense

I looked at this more carefully and realized I misspoke on the 5 hexes, it would actually be a total distance value of 6, e.g. the hex at the Suez Canal costs 2 to traverse.

The HQ at Jerusalem would be the parent for boosting the HQ at Suez and the reason for this is it is likely getting a decent supply value from either Amman or from Damascus, and this is because they are probably connected by rail back to Berlin since Turkey has joined giving them capital strength values of 8. This assumes they have not been bombed like the other visible resources you've shown.

Thus the HQ at Jerusalem likely has a supply value of 5, and a distribution value of 8.

Then 8 - 6 which is > 0 means that the HQ at Jerusalem can reach the HQ at Suez for boosting.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

[EarlyDoors]

[/quote]

Thus the HQ at Jerusalem likely has a supply value of 5, and a distribution value of 8.

Then 8 - 6 which is > 0 means that the HQ at Jerusalem can reach the HQ at Suez for boosting.

My opponent has confirmed that the Suez HQ is being boosted by the Jerusalem HQ

Ah, so according to the above,

An HQ can be boosted by another HQ (of the same or higher rank) if the supply of the source HQ minus the distance is greater than 0

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/jerusalem-units.jpg

Now I've levelled Amman and Damascus, Jerusalem as well sa taken a couple of points from the boosted HQ, so it should result in being 1 supply distribution short of a boost HQ situation

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/level-damascas.jpg

[Hubert Cater]

Yes, I think you've got it now [:)]

[Elessar2]

ORIGINAL: LoneRunner

Researching Logistics raises the Minimum Supply Value for HQs. At level 1,
the Minimum Supply Value is 1, and this will rise by 1 for every subsequent
level attained.
So if level 5 Logistics has been attained, then a HQ with a strength value
of 1-4 will have a minimum supply value of 5 even if it has no access to a
supply source.
It is true that this means that you will only really see any benefit if a high
level of Logistics is researched, but this may be of use in a critical situation.

Hubert can confirm, but I believe that the above is no longer true, for any of the 3 games. If it was, Logistics would be the most valuable tech, by far. In which case no surprise if it got nerfed. Hovering the mouse over the tech in the game doesn't indicate this at all.

[Hubert Cater]

Hi Elessar2,

Logistics still plays a role but the way it works is that the final distribution value of an HQ cannot fall below the current Logistics level.

e.g. if a nation has Logistics Level-5, then the minimum final calculated distribution value of an HQ cannot be less than 5. If it is, then the HQ assumes the distribution value of the current Logistics level which in this case is 5.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

[LoneRunner]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hi Elessar2,

Logistics still plays a role but the way it works is that the final distribution value of an HQ cannot fall below the current Logistics level.

e.g. if a nation has Logistics Level-5, then the minimum final calculated distribution value of an HQ cannot be less than 5. If it is, then the HQ assumes the distribution value of the current Logistics level which in this case is 5.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

I'm sorry Hubert, but I'm not sure I understood your explanation.

The manual states that if level 5 logistics has been attained then an HQ would have a minimum supply value of 5 which would allow the HQ to distribute 8 supply.

If I understood you correctly, you are saying the the manual wording is incorrect and should state that if level 5 logistics was attained an HQ could distribute 5 supply (not 8 supply). So researching logistics affects distributed supply not supply value.

Is that correct?

I want to make sure because like Elessar said, suddenly logistics became even more important to research.

[EarlyDoors]

lol..next USSR surrendered and I ofefred an unconditional surrender

However I can see the Suez HQ was outputting 6

https://strategic-command.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/tobruk-supply/endgame.jpg

which was not forecast

It must have been an 8 minus a bit of strength reduction from Aircraft Carriers

No idea how full strength Suez HQ could output 8...................

[Elessar2]

Then [with all due respect] the in-game description of the tech in question should explicitly say that.

The biggest remaining fault with the interface is how certain, often-vital, information is NOT disclosed to the player, in-game. Another example of that is the research %'s, ESP. including the various modifiers (Spying, catchup, sharing), are a complete mystery from inside the game.

News to me and I've been playing this series since the first installment. I just thought I was saving some MPPs for operational moves and transports and getting an extra HQ here and there.

[Hubert Cater]

ORIGINAL: LoneRunner

I'm sorry Hubert, but I'm not sure I understood your explanation.

The manual states that if level 5 logistics has been attained then an HQ would have a minimum supply value of 5 which would allow the HQ to distribute 8 supply.

If I understood you correctly, you are saying the the manual wording is incorrect and should state that if level 5 logistics was attained an HQ could distribute 5 supply (not 8 supply). So researching logistics affects distributed supply not supply value.

Is that correct?

I want to make sure because like Elessar said, suddenly logistics became even more important to research.

We've made a note to ideally update the Manual text for this section and apologies for the confusion.

For now, my explanation is the correct one, e.g. distribution supply calculation remains unchanged, however if after distribution supply is calculated, if the value is less than the current logistics value, then the logistics value is applied as the distribution supply value.

Essentially this just means the distribution supply value cannot be less than the current logistics value.

Hope this makes sense,
Hubert

[Hubert Cater]

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Then [with all due respect] the in-game description of the tech in question should explicitly say that.

The biggest remaining fault with the interface is how certain, often-vital, information is NOT disclosed to the player, in-game. Another example of that is the research %'s, ESP. including the various modifiers (Spying, catchup, sharing), are a complete mystery from inside the game.

News to me and I've been playing this series since the first installment. I just thought I was saving some MPPs for operational moves and transports and getting an extra HQ here and there.

Agreed and it could have been a change that was made and we missed the update in the Manual, but as just mentioned above we've made a note to correct this for a future update of the Manual.

For spying and intelligence, catch up and sharing, part of the issue here is that not all info can be revealed to a player without breaking fog of war. However, when FoW is disabled, if you are in the Research screen, and mouse hover over section that shows the '175x1' for Advanced Tanks, it displays more info there for you to better understand the current calculations.

See this screenshot below:



The mouse hover indicates the advancement range, which is 3-8% but improved to 3-9%, and the breakdown of that advancement range, e.g. there is no help or loss from Friendly or Enemy levels, but you do get the 1% bonus from Spying and Intelligence.

There is a thread here that gives more info and hopefully this helps too:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4662952

Hubert