Game Balance

[generalfdog]

I too think that Russian artillery should be at least equal to the Germans beginning in 1942. Overwhelming artillery was part of their tactical doctrine.
I made a comment in an earlier post that the Axis satellite units are over rated. When you consider that the Italians had to be rescued by the Germans in both Greece and North Africa it is surprising that their experience is 50% compared to the Russians from 30 to 35%. Both the Italians and Hungarians are at 50%. In North Africa they were routed by UK forces that were only a fraction of their size.
What I am finding in WarPlan is that the Allies really have to make significant invasions in 1943 maybe even in 1942 to take the pressure off Russia. By significant I mean France.
Although the numbers voting in the Game Balance poll are small the fact that it is 2-1 for a Axis bias is something I agree with. It is telling that pretty well every change to game balance has been to supposedly help the Allies. When I open up a scenario using hot seat like the 1942 one I see that all the front line German units are 70 - 75% experience. The Russians are at 40% although I don't see how even that number can be attained in 1942 if you play a 1939 scenario. As mentioned, even the Hungarians and Italians are better at 50%.

I agree that Italy and Axis satellites are to good they should be reduced to maybe 35 except Hungary they should be 45, currently the only 2 balance issues I see favor the allies and those are France is to hard for Germany and early Barbarossa given a good rearward Russian deployment is also to hard. If I was calling the shots I would reduce Italy and all axis Satellites except Finland and Hungary to 35 base experience, reduce France to 35 and limit bef to 5 units, I would also create a garrison requirement for USSR in Baltic states and Poland, I would also have an event putting Greece and Italy at war in Oct of 40

[AlvaroSousa]

USA fired 40x the amount of artillery the Germans did
Germany fired 8x the amount of artillery the Russians did
Russians amassed artillery at times during the war.

I forgot where I read this. Brute Force or How the Allies Won I think.

[ncc1701e]

My experience so far with latest patch. UK needs to build up if they don’t want to be invaded. As such, they can’t send many units in France. If I would change one thing for France, I would reduce France’s manpower. The idea is that if they form many infantry corps, they are near the 50% manpower limit and that it would be a trade off for the Allies player. You want a lot of French infantry corps, fine but there is a risk of collapse after the first losses. One or two French corps less and France will be fine.

But, if France is less hard, German will be more powerful for later. It means Yugoslavia in 1940. Egypt in 1940. Who is invading Greece today?

Should we oblige Axis to invade Greece? If we want to prevent a hasty attack of Yugoslavia in 1940, I also think there should be a kind of link between Yugoslavia and Greece. But weather in April 1941 must be a mix of clear / rain in this area to attack Yugoslavia and Greece. Today, it is always raining and matching historical invasion dates is impossible.

Whatever the decision on Greece, your ideas to reduce experience of Italy and the others minors except Hungary is interesting because it obliges German player to commit more land and air units elsewhere than in Russia.

Regarding Russia, their troops will have the opportunity to train themselves against the minors maybe. But, for me, the most important thing is to prevent the ability for Germans to push Russian units like nothing after September 1941. An early Barbarossa can be devastating. Nobody attacks end of June 1941 since nobody is doing Greece. So, by events, I would just progressively match the attributes of Russian army and German corps meaning +1 artillery and +1 defense in a period end of 1941 / mid of 1942.

[ncc1701e]

Although the numbers voting in the Game Balance poll are small the fact that it is 2-1 for a Axis bias is something I agree with. It is telling that pretty well every change to game balance has been to supposedly help the Allies. When I open up a scenario using hot seat like the 1942 one I see that all the front line German units are 70 - 75% experience. The Russians are at 40% although I don't see how even that number can be attained in 1942 if you play a 1939 scenario. As mentioned, even the Hungarians and Italians are better at 50%.

A long time ago, Russian based land experience was at 35% for new built units in Europe 1939 scenario. Then, the experience was lower at 30% because German players were not experienced enough and were complaining about their Barbarossa. Since then, this is me complaining about Russian.

[ncc1701e]

USA fired 40x the amount of artillery the Germans did
Germany fired 8x the amount of artillery the Russians did

How did you reflect this between USA and German units in the game? Infantry corps, Mechanized corps and Tank corps, all have the same attributes, including artillery, between USA and Germany.

Russians amassed artillery at times during the war.

And that is why Soviet Mechanized corps is more powerful than any other countries in artillery in the game. However, what about the defense attribute for Soviet rifle armies? Soviet resistance was already stiffening end of august 1941. Don't you think that, thanks to an event, at a given point a Soviet army should match a German corps in defense?

[ncc1701e]

Although the numbers voting in the Game Balance poll are small the fact that it is 2-1 for a Axis bias is something I agree with. It is telling that pretty well every change to game balance has been to supposedly help the Allies. When I open up a scenario using hot seat like the 1942 one I see that all the front line German units are 70 - 75% experience. The Russians are at 40% although I don't see how even that number can be attained in 1942 if you play a 1939 scenario. As mentioned, even the Hungarians and Italians are better at 50%.

A long time ago, Russian based land experience was at 35% for new built units in Europe 1939 scenario. Then, the experience was lower at 30% because German players were not experienced enough and were complaining about their Barbarossa. Since then, this is me complaining about Russian.

Just to add, if you are looking at the beginning of Europe 1942 scenario, you will notice that Germany has a lot of infantry small corps on the frontline like if Barbarossa was a little more hard than usual.

Starting with Europe 1939 scenario, Germany has all the PP and manpower to put an infantry large corps from Leningrad to Rostov end of 1941.

[ncc1701e]

Even the manual says infantry have a defense of 5. It is not up to date but it is even simpler.

Let a defense of 4 for Russian infantry corps. And, by default, put a defense of 5 for Russian infantry armies. Just that, without a complicated event, and the defense of Russia will be harder once armies are arriving ; meaning more attrition for Germany and less for Russia. This single modification may improve the manpower balance between Germany and Russia.

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[AlvaroSousa]

USA fired 40x the amount of artillery the Germans did
Germany fired 8x the amount of artillery the Russians did

How did you reflect this between USA and German units in the game? Infantry corps, Mechanized corps and Tank corps, all have the same attributes, including artillery, between USA and Germany.

Russians amassed artillery at times during the war.

And that is why Soviet Mechanized corps is more powerful than any other countries in artillery in the game. However, what about the defense attribute for Soviet rifle armies? Soviet resistance was already stiffening end of august 1941. Don't you think that, thanks to an event, at a given point a Soviet army should match a German corps in defense?

I guesstimaged what was fair and balanced.

[ncc1701e]

I too think that Russian artillery should be at least equal to the Germans beginning in 1942. Overwhelming artillery was part of their tactical doctrine.
I made a comment in an earlier post that the Axis satellite units are over rated. When you consider that the Italians had to be rescued by the Germans in both Greece and North Africa it is surprising that their experience is 50% compared to the Russians from 30 to 35%. Both the Italians and Hungarians are at 50%. In North Africa they were routed by UK forces that were only a fraction of their size.
What I am finding in WarPlan is that the Allies really have to make significant invasions in 1943 maybe even in 1942 to take the pressure off Russia. By significant I mean France.
Although the numbers voting in the Game Balance poll are small the fact that it is 2-1 for a Axis bias is something I agree with. It is telling that pretty well every change to game balance has been to supposedly help the Allies. When I open up a scenario using hot seat like the 1942 one I see that all the front line German units are 70 - 75% experience. The Russians are at 40% although I don't see how even that number can be attained in 1942 if you play a 1939 scenario. As mentioned, even the Hungarians and Italians are better at 50%.

I agree that Italy and Axis satellites are to good they should be reduced to maybe 35 except Hungary they should be 45, currently the only 2 balance issues I see favor the allies and those are France is to hard for Germany and early Barbarossa given a good rearward Russian deployment is also to hard. If I was calling the shots I would reduce Italy and all axis Satellites except Finland and Hungary to 35 base experience, reduce France to 35 and limit bef to 5 units, I would also create a garrison requirement for USSR in Baltic states and Poland, I would also have an event putting Greece and Italy at war in Oct of 40

Double checking:
Italia - land 45% - air 40%
Bulgaria - land 40% - air 40%
Finland - land 65% - air 65%
Hungary - land 40% - air 40%
Romania - land 40% - air 40%

Honestly, I think this is already fine.

[generalfdog]

So what issues are you having as USSR? I have 5 games going and not a single one has Germany even attained historical objectives let alone crushed Russia

[ncc1701e]

So what issues are you having as USSR? I have 5 games going and not a single one has Germany even attained historical objectives let alone crushed Russia

My skills obviously. I am buying infantry rifle corps before war but still fail to see how to place them to slow down the Germans and avoid big encirclements. ZOC is giving me headaches. Last time, I lost both Leningrad and Moscow. I was happy to stop Germans three hexes from Moscow when mud season arrives. Yet in two turns and in heavy rain, all the Panzers destroyed my defense and Moscow was taken.

Then from 1941 to 1943, I literally exhausted the Soviet manpower trying to advance in the German entrenched position to gain some land and air experience. This was literally a wall.

[generalfdog]

So what issues are you having as USSR? I have 5 games going and not a single one has Germany even attained historical objectives let alone crushed Russia

My skills obviously. I am buying infantry rifle corps before war but still fail to see how to place them to slow down the Germans and avoid big encirclements. ZOC is giving me headaches. Last time, I lost both Leningrad and Moscow. I was happy to stop Germans three hexes from Moscow when mud season arrives. Yet in two turns and in heavy rain, all the Panzers destroyed my defense and Moscow was taken.

Then from 1941 to 1943, I literally exhausted the Soviet manpower trying to advance in the German entrenched position to gain some land and air experience. This was literally a wall.

Yes I have had those issues, although just not recently, judging by our pacific game i would say we are pretty evenly matched, if you want try a game or 2 and show me the issues I am up for it. I am worried we are going to make USSR to hard honestly I think it's about perfect the way it is

[Nirosi]

Who is invading Greece today?

Well... I do. But I know it is not a good choice strategically speaking. I just like t do it.

But a link between Greece and Yugoslavia might indeed be a sound idea.

[ncc1701e]

Yes I have had those issues, although just not recently, judging by our pacific game i would say we are pretty evenly matched, if you want try a game or 2 and show me the issues I am up for it. I am worried we are going to make USSR to hard honestly I think it's about perfect the way it is

Good idea, Europe 1939 small fleet, mirror game?

[generalfdog]

Yes I have had those issues, although just not recently, judging by our pacific game i would say we are pretty evenly matched, if you want try a game or 2 and show me the issues I am up for it. I am worried we are going to make USSR to hard honestly I think it's about perfect the way it is

Good idea, Europe 1939 small fleet, mirror game?

I put 2 up code "balance'" you can accept both if you want to do a mirror

[kklemmick]

My experience is limited, but I don't think the way to balance the German advantage lies in Russia. I think the German/Russian balance is just fine, even with the pathetic USSR experience. I have yet to play a game where the Germans accomplished even historical gains in Russia.

What I do see is completely unbalanced German gains everywhere else. I just started another PBEM game as the Germans with an experienced Allied player and I have once again easily cut off the allied army in the Middle East. Most likely I'll be able to do a Sea Lion invasion. It happens EVERY SINGLE TIME. What I think is required to balance the game is to give the UK stronger units early on. If they choose to use these to help France it really won't matter because they'll lose the Middle East which is a far greater long term threat to them.

[kklemmick]

On a positive note, the game I'm playing as the Allies, where I lost all of Africa, the Middle East and all of the UK except Scotland (as well as the entire UK army) because the Germans decided to wait until '42 to invade Russia, left Russia so strong that it's winter '44 and Russia has taken Warsaw and the entire Baltics and is rapidly pushing towards Berlin. So while I do see the USSR doing well in games, I think this is because the German player does not commit enough resources there. It's always going to be a trade off and if you commit what it takes to thrash the UK early, it's likely going to cost you later in Russia.

[PanzerMike]

My experience is limited, but I don't think the way to balance the German advantage lies in Russia. I think the German/Russian balance is just fine, even with the pathetic USSR experience. I have yet to play a game where the Germans accomplished even historical gains in Russia.

What I do see is completely unbalanced German gains everywhere else. I just started another PBEM game as the Germans with an experienced Allied player and I have once again easily cut off the allied army in the Middle East. Most likely I'll be able to do a Sea Lion invasion. It happens EVERY SINGLE TIME. What I think is required to balance the game is to give the UK stronger units early on. If they choose to use these to help France it really won't matter because they'll lose the Middle East which is a far greater long term threat to them.

I already posted about perhaps landing craft being too cheap. Germany and Italy didn't have large scale landing craft at their disposal. They needed paratroopers to pave the way for regular transport ships that could drop of the land forces. Look at Crete. By making landing craft so cheap it makes dirty tricks that would hardly be possible IRL easy to do.

[canuckgamer]

Alvaro, just wondering if the purpose of the poll was to make some more game balance changes? We have been playing WP for a year and still find the Russians quite brittle. We think that the Axis can take any of the three main objectives if they want. In our current game Leningrad has fallen at the start of the summer of 42 and there is now a German panzer operating in Finland with the extra supply from Leningrad. I am hoping to do better with the Russians this game compared to last game where the Germans took all three main cities and the Caucasus oil fields.
I still find it surprising how easily Russian units, even full strength armies in terrain retreat from attacks at odds as lows as 2-1. As usual we are stalemated in the middle east even with an early 42 invasion of Morocco. The three Atlantic ports only add supply of 180 and the continuous mountains heading east are easily defended by the Axis. The only positive so far for the Allies is that they are doing better in the Battle of the Atlantic.
We like the fact that in WPP although it is difficult to score more VPs with the Allies they have a chance of winning by taking all the Japanese production cities.

[ncc1701e]

Some people are finding USSR already too good. So for me, I must improve my skills. I have restarted a new game for training.