Dutch AVP Arend: Scenario 1 Exploits

[WEXF]

Some things to notice on the screen below are:
1. Notice that the ability to carry a floatplane is in red, meaning that it had been damaged by the bomb that hit Arend. Whether repairs to the equipment needed for carrying the plane would happen at Perth was an open question.

Note that the inability to operate aircraft while moving is because of the total amount of damage the ship has.

I agree with Ranger Joe. There is no "device" that allows a ship to handle aircraft that I could find. I also took a look at a number of ships that are usually heavily damaged at PH and the ability to carry aircraft very frequently shows in red. For Arend we know that having 51 major flotation damage is sufficient to make the ship unable to handle a floatplane. It will be interesting to see what happens as the repairs are made. No doubt the degree of damage needed to cause a ship to lose its ability to handle aircraft will vary from class to class.
Thanks Ranger Joe for helping me understand this better.

[WEXF]

Quite a few ships were using the facilities at Perth for various repairs when Arend arrived. The shipyard with a capacity of 3000 tons was occupied by only a single ship, O23, a 934 ton Dutch submarine. Allied command quickly decided that getting the submarine ready for action was a higher priority than repairing Arend. After looking at all the possibilities it was decided to have the shipyard set a "High" priority for O23 and a "Normal" priority for Arend. These orders resulted in Arend requiring 57 days for repairs. Once O23 was fully operational the priority assigned to Arend might be changed but what might happen during the month ahead was unclear. It was always possible that another, more important, ship would need the SY.
The screen below shows all 10 of the ships under repair in Perth on 21Apr. the AMs and DMs are being repaired/refitted

O23HAN2.jpg (196.02 KiB) Viewed 2142 times

at Pier Side and are not using the shipyard. Notice at the bottom of the screen the "priority adjusted - 2,888 tons" statement in white. If O23 was set at "critical" that statement shows in red, meaning that issues of priority were somewhat unclear going forward. Command decided not to have that condition in the SY.
This brings this AAR up to date with the PBM game currently in progress.

[RangerJoe]

Put the O23 at pierside to repair the system damage while the Arend is in the shipyard. When the subs systems are fixed, then put it in the shipyard and pull the Arend out. It is more efficient that way and any Naval Support will help repairs at the pier but not the shipyard.

Too much damage, either at 50 points total or 51 points total, stops air operations. Any fires at all stops ALL air operations.

Ensign: "Chief, gas up my plane so I can fly it off the ship."
Chief: "Sir, I don't think that we should do that because of the fire!"
Ensign: "Chief, I am giving you an order, gas up my plane!"

Chief to Captain: "Sir, your pilot ensign wants me to gas up his plane so he can fly off the ship. I think that he has a hot date with a hospital candy striper."
Captain to Ensign: "Aircraft do not get gassed up when there is a fire on board! You are now just a lowly swabbie. Report to the head cook for KP duty, then to the Chief."
New lowly swabbie; "Yes SIR!"

Chief to lowly swabbie on his way to the galley: "Your ass is mine now you stupid piece of DRECK!"

[WEXF]

A very interesting idea. I am not sure I understand how it will get things done faster given the overall goal is to get O23 back into action asap. The way I set it up will take 29 days to get O23 ready.
The screen below shows what I think you are suggesting.
It shows 7# days that O23 can spend at Pier Side repairing. Can that actually repair all of the 39 system damage on the sub?
Assuming it can and can also repair the 1 non-major engine damage that will leave 24 major flotation and 5 major engine damage on O23 after 7 days.
Can all of that be repaired in only 22 days at the Perth SY?
Also, won't putting O23 at Pier Side potentially slow down the other 8 ships at Piers?
Can you tell me what the "Repair Points 48(87%)" in the upper right of the screen means? Does it mean that O23 has 48 repair points and is 87% of the way to getting the 49th?
Also, doesn't it take 100 Repair Points to repair 1 damage point? I believe that is what the Repair 101 and the Manual says.

O23HPAHSY2.jpg (196.96 KiB) Viewed 2125 times

[RangerJoe]

The ship is 87% finished repairing the next point of damage.

Frequently, the non-major and system damage repairs faster at pierside than the shipyard. As stated before, look up Alfred + Repair to see his repair guide. When a ship has a higher priority, then that ship tends to be repaired faster than the others.

[BBfanboy]

Here is the URL of the Ship Repair 101 guide. You should be bookmaking all of these guides that come up in your game queries - you will need them again.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 3#p2847023

The thing to understand is that the port has repair points based on level, additional points can be provided by Naval Support squads and the Repair Shipyard has its own allocation of repair points. For stood down ships, the port (not sure about NS) may provide some assistance to the crew. For pierside docked ships, the port and NS squads assist for certain, but might also be helping other ships. For ships in the Repair SY, its repair points are shared among ships assigned to it, depending on priorities. If there are no ships in the Repair SY, its repair points are treated like port repair points and added to those.

Pay attention to the part about destroyed devices like guns and radars. When the ship first arrives and you put it in the SY or pierside repair, it will give a repair estimate that does NOT include the destroyed device. You have to run a turn while under repairs before the game can calculate the repairs to include replacement of the destroyed device.

In all cases you should evaluate whether you want to tie up your shipyard with long term repairs or do basic repairs and send the ship on to a more distant SY.

[WEXF]

Guys:
I have read and re-read the Ship Repair 101 Guide from start to finish numerous times. I have printed it out and reference it over and over.
In section 8 of the guide it says: "All IR have a fixed cost of 100 IRP to remove 1 POD". It also says there is no difference between the number of IRP needed to repair normal or major damage, only that the conditions are different to repair major damage (needs SY or specialized repair ships or large ports).
Section 9 lists the sources of IRP needed to repair damage. It also says: "IRP generated by shipyards are expended only on ships in "shipyard repair mode undergoing repair in the shipyard" and that "ships in shipyard repair mode only use IRP generated by the shipyard, they do not benefit from IRP generated by other sources".
The shipyard in Perth is very small, only 3. It will according to rule 14.2.3.1 generate only 3x10=30 Shipyard repair points.
O23 has 24 major flotation damage and 5 major engine damage. That should require 2900 IRP in a shipyard.
How will that happen in the time it says?
Please show me the numbers.
WEXF

[BBfanboy]

Because O-23 is not in the shipyard yet, the repair estimate is in red, meaning an incomplete repair. It will take 7 days to repair the system and non-major engineering damage. Once it is put in the SY you find out how long it takes to fix the float damage.

[WEXF]

I understand that. It is interesting that only 7 days is required to repair 39 system and 1 engine damage on O23. I did notice on page 2 of the thread on the "Ship Repair Guide" some comments by Alfred about there being differences between how the repair calculations are applied to different ship classes. Both O23 and Arend are small ships so it is not surprising that they will "repair" faster than larger vessels. There were also comments on other "unknown" variables in the repair calculations.
I think I am ready to move on from this discussion.
This is a game and like so many of the games I have played over the years there are always events that are not clearly explained by the rules and even when the rules seem to explain events there are always those rare "die rolls" that make you wonder what is missing from your perception of what is happening.
I will consider there to be what I will call a "FOR" which for me stands for a "Fog of Repair".
Thanks for all the responses.
It will be interesting to watch what actually happens to O23 and Arend as they spend their time in the Perth SY.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving!

[WEXF]

Some interesting data is provided by the status of the ships under repair in Perth as the orders for 22Apr are being written.
The screen below shows us a number of things:
1. One of the minesweepers that were being repaired, AM Colac was returned to service. Another, AM Ballarat, that had showed only needing "1 day" is still in repair at Pier Side. We have all seen this happen as the number of days shown are really just a "minimum". Looking back at the screen shown before it can be seen that AM Ballarat actually had 2 system damage while Colac had but 1.
2. The 5 Destroyer Minesweepers are progressing as expected with 3 more days before they will be returned to service.
3. AVP Arend shows no improvement on the degree of damage, still has 51 major flotation and the estimate of days needed is now 56 where it had been 57.
4. O23 has repaired 2 points of major flotation damage (24>22) and the number of days needed has been reduced from 29>27. More detail can be seen in the following screens.

22AprDam2.jpg (149.12 KiB) Viewed 2051 times

[RangerJoe]

If you click on the "Manage ships under repair" you can see how far repairs have progressed on the next damage point which would then show you why the estimated time to repair is one day less when no progress seems to have occurred.

[WEXF]

This screen shows the details of the repairs being done at Perth with the focus on O23 at "High" priority. It should be remembered that the decision of Allied Command on how to allocate repair resources was based on getting O23 back into action ASAP.
The screen shows that the days of repairs possible using facilities other than the shipyard have not changed. The major flotation damage above 5 can only be done in the SY (there is an AR in Perth that can handle up to 5 major flotation or engine damage), so placement in the SY was considered very important.
The detail on the "Repair Points" in the upper right are very interesting. It shows 23(41%), meaning that O23 has accumulated 23 RP and is 41% towards getting the 42nd RP. It needs 100 RP to reduce the major flotation damage another point from 22>21.
When we started O23 was shown as having 24 major flotation with repair points of 48 (87%). So what actually happened in the day that has transpired? O23 received 51.13 RP to get the major flotation damage reduced from 24>23. O23 also received 100 RP to get the damage from 23>22. O23 also received 23.41 RP to get to where it is right now.
Taken together O23 received 51.13 + 100 + 23.41 RP or a total of 174.54 RP this last turn.
We know that a SY can only use repair points generated by the yard and can only use those points in the yard. Perth is a SY3 and generates only 30 repair points per turn. It looks like O23 actually received almost 6X the number of points generated by the Perth SY, but we know that is not correct.
What O23 received were 174.54 "Adjusted RP". We don't know exactly how many of the 30 SY RP generated at Perth were transformed into the 174.54 ARP because some of the Perth RP went to Arend.

22AprDetail2.jpg (184.51 KiB) Viewed 2043 times

[WEXF]

This screen shows the progress of the repairs on Arend.
It shows that Arend has 14 RP and is 34% of the way to the 15 RP.
If we make an assumption that both Arend and O23 are adjusted the same way in the calculations made by the game to account for the size/class of ship being repaired the total number of "Adjusted RP" generated by the 30 RP produced by the Perth SY is: 174.54 + 14.34 = 188.88. That tell us that the small size of Arend and O23 got over 6 times the normally expected repairs from what was generated by the SY.
It will be really interesting to see if these data repeat as the days continue.

22Arend2.jpg (189.61 KiB) Viewed 2042 times

[RangerJoe]

I don't think that is quite correct. I read the 14(31%) as it has 14 repair points done and is 31% towards repairing the next damage point.

Another thing that you might want to consider for repairing at pierside damage repair, bring in Naval Squads as they will also contribute to repairs at peirside but not in the shipyard.

[WEXF]

I don't think that is quite correct. I read the 14(31%) as it has 14 repair points done and is 31% towards repairing the next damage point.

You may be right, but I would think that since it takes 100 RP to repair one point of damage and Arend only has 14 repair points, your take your say it was only 14% towards repairing the next damage point not 34%. (It is 34 not 31)
I noticed that in the Ship Repair Guide it says that when on "High" priority a ship gets 1.667 of what they normally would have gotten. Assuming if both ships were on "normal" they would share equally the 30 points generated by the Perth SY, they would have gotten 15 points each. On high O23 would have gotten 15 x 1.667 =25 RP and Arend would have only got what was left or 5 RP.
Using my calculations:
For O23 the 174.54 adjusted RP divided by the 25 of Perth's points would mean each Perth point became 6.98 adjusted RP.
For Arend the 14.34 adjusted RP divided by the 5 Perth points would mean each Perth point became only 2.87 adjusted RP.
Taken together it suggests that each Perth RP allow O23 to be repairing about 2.5 times as fast as Arend.
I'm sure there is more to this. Maybe time will fill in the blanks as we watch what happens to O23 and Arend over the next month.

[WEXF]

I have relooked at all of the data on Arend and O23 and also some data from another repair on a much larger ship and I think all of my previous thinking was wrong and Ranger Joe was more on the mark. Sorry!
Looking at these two screens for the ongoing repair of BB Arizona at the LA SY it is clear that the number in the upper right showing "Repair Points" has a different meaning than I had thought. The two screens are for two consecutive days during which BB Arizona went from having 4 major flotation damage to 3. The number of "Repair Points" are way over 100 so my thinking that it simply took 100 RP to repair a major damage was wrong. The numbers for Arizona are 679 and 370.
Looking further at the % numbers the picture gets clearer. If you take the Repair Points and divide by the % figure, I believe to get the number of RP that are needed to repair a single major damage for the class of ship in question.
370/.5 = 740
679/.93 = 730 Close enough for me!
If you look at the screens above for O23 there are these numbers:
23/.41 = 56
48/.87 = 55
For Arend the numbers are: 14/.34 = 41.
I expect there is some variation that would happen depending on the priority of repair. Of course the size of the SY and the priority will impact the speed of the repair being made but the comparative differences between classes should be pretty close. No doubt there are some other issues here but this was one that had me going for some time.
It looks like repairing a single point of major flotation damage on a small Dutch AVP is almost 18 times easier than repairing one point of major damage on a BB like Arizona.
It will really be interesting to watch what happens going forward to see if this is correct.

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Ariz4D2.jpg (152.89 KiB) Viewed 1982 times

[WEXF]

I took a closer look at the numbers that I had for the repairs of Arend at Darwin done "stood down" at "Pier side" to see what the calculation of dividing "Repair Points" by the % shown.

6Feb: Arrival in Darwin: 45-51-8: 9(21%)=42.8
7Feb: 45-51-8: 16(45%)=35.6
8Feb: 44-51-8: 30(85%)=35.3
9Feb: 44-51-8: 28(68%)=41.2
10Feb: 43-51-8: 7(17%)=41.2
11Feb: 43-51-8: 27(65%)=41.5
12Feb: 42-51-8: 6(14%)=42.8
13Feb: 42-51-8: 26(63%)=41.3
14Feb: 41-51-8: 5(12%)=41.7
15Feb: 41-51-8: 31(75%)=41.3
16Feb: 40-51-8: 20(48%)=41.7
17Feb: 39-51-8: 15(36%)=41.7
18Feb: 38-51-8: 0
19Feb: 37-51-8: 22(61%)=36.1 At this time there were other ships repairing PS at Darwin including an xAKL and a DD?
20Feb: 37-51-8: 20(41%)=48.8
21Feb: 36-51-8: 15(36%)=41.7
22Feb: 35-51-8: no data on RP
23Feb: 34-51-8: 3(7%)=42.8
24Feb: 34-51-8: 40(97%)=41.2
25Feb: 33-51-8: 36(86%)=41.8
These data are pretty consistent with the number previously shown for Arend as it was being repaired in the Perth SY 14(34%)=41.2.

[RangerJoe]

There is no need to apologize. By looking more in depth, you are learning how to do things more efficiently which is good. As always in this game, there is a randomness to things as well which can also affect repairs or even a tanker sinking because a crew member was smoking a cigarette when the ship is loaded with some sort of fuel.

Sometimes the shipyard is faster to do all of the repairs, sometimes it is not faster. But it also depends upon other ships being repaired at the same place and possibly competing for resources. Which is why I like to fix the minor stuff at pierside repair mode first and then use the shipyard for the major items since the pierside repair mode is assisted by naval support and ARs/FRDs that are not otherwise allocated to repairing certain ships. Note also that AS, AG, AGP, and ADs will also add some help to certain classes of ships. But the ARs are the best at helping non-major flotation repairs while the FRDs only help with the flotation repairs. Too bad a ship can't be loaded onto a FRD and then towed to a major shipyard for repairs! But you can always check to see which is faster by toggling back and forth but make sure to hit "cancel" so no changes are made unless you want to make the changes. But overloaded shipyards and FRDs will not work efficiently.

[WEXF]

As always in this game, there is a randomness to things.

That is an understatement. I am finding that the RP(%) data is not always shown for ships that are being repaired. I think this analysis is helpful in understanding why certain ships repair faster than others but not for much else.
I will be following the repairs of O23 and Arend as they progress during the next month, but I am going to start figuring out how to best use Arend and her ability to support seaplanes after she is repaired. The basics are clear, its the details I will think about.

[RangerJoe]

As always in this game, there is a randomness to things.

That is an understatement. I am finding that the RP(%) data is not always shown for ships that are being repaired. I think this analysis is helpful in understanding why certain ships repair faster than others but not for much else.
I will be following the repairs of O23 and Arend as they progress during the next month, but I am going to start figuring out how to best use Arend and her ability to support seaplanes after she is repaired. The basics are clear, its the details I will think about.

The Arend can carry and operate a surviving float plane unit from a sunken ship while underway. That would be a valuable addition to a convoy escort, if not by attacking subs but by spotting them. It could also do this at night in an attempt to see the sub before daytime movement occurs. This could also be used to supplement ASW TFs, just don't get too close and lose Arend. Then at a base, the Arend can disband and assist flying boats or other float planes there as well. This could help when moving units and supplies to a base where there are currently no air units searching.