Flanker Mod 6.22.41

[Denniss]

Some small changes/addings to the plane data suggestions .

I think balance of play is good .
Maneuver ratings are based on Fw-190/Me109G and the upwards and downwards of other aircrafts .
But my knowledge of russian planes is small

[JagdFlanker]

i just stumbled accross this - an interesting read and possibly useful for ya!

http://luthier.stormloader.com/SFTacticsIII.htm

[Denniss]

Another update .

Do you have anything to calculate bomb load and range ?

[JagdFlanker]

here's the payload conversion.

http://www.onlineconversion.com/weight_common.htm

put the number in, choose kg or lbs, and convert to grain. the first numbers before the first
comma is the loadout weight for the aircraft. i tested it with the Do 217M
(4000kg bombload) and it gave a 61.7, which matched the 3.3 stats. i used LemaireSoft's
near increadable website
(http://users.belgacom.net/aircraft/edito/2117.html#2117)
for most of my stats, but i'm sure there is the possibility of errors for at least a couple
things!! note i think the bombloads on tac aircraft are way too high in 3.3, and i was
relieved to see the real loadouts are smaller which in-game i think is much more reasonable.
also the He 111 loadout is in the middle of it's early loadout and it's later
loadout, since i guess it required rockets to take off with it's later max weight.

hexes are 20 miles/32 km in game, so divide the aircraft range by the hex size, then
divide by 2 again(!). i made the minimum range of all aircraft 10 hexes, and divided
all the He-177 stats by 2 again.

i can honestly say i am very excited to see your reworked stats!! i really appreciate
all the work yer putting into this!![&o]

[JagdFlanker]

here's the new KV/JS ikons - i havn't posted them in the mod download yet, though i will with the next update. note that i put the download link on the top of page 1 for easier access.

[Denniss]

See post below - stats/sugestions moved

www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/departments.html
www.luftarchiv.de
www.lexikonderwehrmacht.de
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/index.htm
http://www.455th.ukpc.net/tomfeise/8thusaaf/planes.htm
http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/index-1024.php
http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/Index.html
http://www.focke-wulf190.com/indexneu.htm
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.com/aircraft.html

[Denniss]

See post below - stats/sugestions moved

[JagdFlanker]

the early factories make no difference - it doesn't start producing until the aircraft is availible anyways so it doesn't hurt.

i will let you do stats for everything you would like to see included and then we will discuss later which we should generalize because of low total production, etc. for example the Hs 129, which although had a million varients, really had a short and low production run so we should perhaps have just 1 version of it in production for a year to keep it simpler for everybody else and make it easier to fill a couple wings of the type in game. the final version would be an average of all the main varients stats, or perhaps the stats taken from the best version. on the other hand i am looking forward to the Fw 190 series being broken down more, as 1 version in production for 3 years is a little silly as it was continually upgraded! i guess in general cheap aircraft should be an absolute minimum of 6 months in production, and preferably minimum 9 months to make it easy to equip the wings. too much aircraft upgrading really hurts pilot experience in the game!!

i must admit, the He 177 worries me a little as it is so much better than everything i don't know if it can be expensive enough!

i'll see if i can find some more info for ya in regards to sov aircraft - i'v, um, downloaded a ton of aircraft books so if you are looking for anything specific let me know and i'll email it to ya if you'd like.

[Denniss]

See post below - stats/sugestions moved

[JagdFlanker]

the only aircraft hard-coding should be the italian aircraft, mixed aircraft, and the lend-lease aircraft. i'm sure i messed around with all of the above, but i know a way of converting them back if i moved them. i may restart from scratch for one of the next versions and do a lot of cut and pasting over just to ensure i'm modifying the current 3.3 and cut down on any possible mistakes from constantly playing with the obwir.

i must have gotten bored last night because i got out a historical rail map of the soviet union from leningrad/kiev to saratov/kazan and started playing with the wir map, and somehow without changing the map much i think i'v made it much more historical and made it a more enjoyable map to play the game on! pics to follow soon...

[Denniss]

See post below - stats/sugestions moved

[JagdFlanker]

type 0 - fighter
type 1 - fighter/bomber
type 2 - tac bomber
type 3 - tank buster
type 4 - bomber
type 5 - transport

note when designating aircraft types that bombers may be used for special supply as well as strategic bombers over tac aircraft, and chances are SB-2's and B-25's were (likely) not used in either of those roles by the sovs. i will leave that decision up to you, though.

unless the TB-3 was NEVER used as a combat aircraft during the great patriotic war i'm not sure it should only be used as a transport aircraft only...again, you know what yer doing!

also i'll let ya know with fighter/bombers that even when set on escort they drop bombs with the other ground attack aircraft so that does add 'power' to that type!!

the ranges you are quoting are excellent - it forces germany to use their bombers as tac bombers instead of strategic bombers, as they should!!

[JagdFlanker]

oh, now i know what you mean by hard-coded upgrade - yes, Ju-87 wings are replaced by fw190f automatically. i personally like that as it converts a ground attack wing to a fighter wing, which by that late in the war is much more useful.

[JagdFlanker]

this was the map i was staring at...

[JagdFlanker]

and what i came up with...

[JagdFlanker]

ok, so of note:

the approach to moscow: just a tiny bit harder to advance on, but overall a little easier for the sovs to defend (and for germany to defend during the blizzards...). not a big change, but does allow for a little more possibilities on both sides and i hope it makes it less likely for germany to win in '41.

behind kharkov - i split the rail into a seperate eastern and western rail, and the town between kharkov/kursk/voronezh is Byelogorod. this looks more historical than my previous map while making voronezh more protected compared to the original map. this gives kursk and kharkov some supply if cut off and will generally increase action in that area, especially in the '42 scens and on.

behind gorkii as per the master map.

crimean penninsula - germany has to take sevastopol to advance, and overall it's a nice little added side-battle!! the added town is Kerch.

there be some arguments about me not adding the northern finnish-karelian railway, but the fact of the matter is in reality finland only took back what it lost in the 1939 winter war and advanced no further, so the rail addition will be available but as a user added option only. since leningrad always falls anyways there's no need to worry about finnish involvement in the game!

[Veroporo]

Actually the Finns did advance over their old borders. The eastmost defensive lines are on red and the old border on blue (give or take a few miles).

[JagdFlanker]

hmm, i notice yer right! from what i can tell there was supposed to be german troops involved too, so i'll look into it...

[Denniss]

Mixed Fighter :
Factory in Bucharest should start with size 1 and cost of 4 for a later upgrade to Me-109G (to represent IAR fighters as well as some Fokker or D.520)
Rename them to Mix Fighter (or Mix1 Fighter do differ from italian planes) to have the full name visible in Air unit display but production should stay non-changeable unless it upgrades to Me-109G
Mix1 Fighters should get +1 maneuver/dogfight to 17

Rename MC.200 to Mix2 Fighter(but use the same stats) with Upgrade to MC.202/205 - to represent some different older types such as Fiat G.50/Reggiane Re.2000/2001/2002 and MC.200
-> there should be a second factory in Turin producing Mix2 Fighter to represent Fiat Airplane production as well as Reggiane production
-> change MC.202 factory to Mix2 Fighter
-> Both factories should be sized 9 or 10
Mix2 fighter should have maneuver/dogfight of 18

change all italian fighter units to Mix2 fighters as well as at least one finnish unit (used G.50)

Rename MC-202/MC-205 to MC.202/MC.205

Increase MC.202 maneuver to 22 - same engine as ME-109F and a good airframe
MC.202 should appear later in the game - AFAIK 11/41 orJan/Feb 1942
Mc.202/205 Durability should be the same as Me-109G

Icrease MC.205 cannon rating to 10
-> 2x20mm + 2x12.7mm
increase maneuver to 25 - was more or less on par with G6
decrease range to 13
-> same engine as 109G6 and more or less the same amount of fuel

At least one italian fighter unit and one bomber unit should be reclassified as hungarian to represent nationalist air force after italia surrendered (to prevent them from disappearing after surrender it's needed to reclassify them)
-> Slot50/51 with 1o/14o Stormo

[Denniss]

Rename all Bf-109/110 to Me-109/110

Reduce Me-109F cannon rating to 4 - 1x15mm + 2x7.92mm

Change Me-109G to 23-5-2-12-27
-> 1x20mm + 2x7.92mm
-> Delay arrival to 8/1942
-> much better engine than 109F (+300PS) + more speed/climb rate and armour but less maneuver so only +1 maneuver/dogfight
-> Increase 109G and later production cost to 4

Add Me-109G6 arriving 6/1943
-> 25-9-2-12-28
-> 1x30mm + 2x13mm

Rename Me-109K to Me-109K4
Change Me-109K to 29-9-2-10-29
-> Superior to all allied/german fighters except Me-262
-> 1x30mm + 2x13mm

Increase ME-110 cannon to 10 - 2x20mm + 4x7.92mm
Increase Me-110 cost to 4
Me-110G series used drop tanks so range should be a little less than Me-410 range - 22
Increase Me-110/110G/410 bombload to 1.5t = 23
Me-410 should be available 9/1943

Reduce Fw-190A/A5 cost to 4 - all others to 5

Reduce Fw-190A maneuver to 23 to represent older models with less hp

Create a new Fw-190A5 arriving 11/1942 with 24-14-4-13-30
Create Fw-190A8 arriving 1/1944
-> 25-16-4-13-32
-> improved engine and other things so +1 maneuver/dogfifht
-> 4x20mm/2x13mm instead of 4x20mm+2x7.92mm

Fw-190F bomb load = 1t = 15.4 = 15

Rename Fw-190D to Fw-190D9
Reduce Fw-190D9 maneuver/Dogfight to 28

Reduce Me-262 maneuver/Dogfight to 30

Ju-87D/G should have the same durability as it's basically the same plane so both 31 to represent added armor against ground fire
Ju87G should have cost 5
Ju87B = 700Kg = 10.8 = 11
Ju87D = 1.8t = 27.7 = 28

Ju87B is short legged but no so short - a little more than ME-109E range so 12
Ju-87G should have nearly the same range as the Ju-87D (same plane) - 20 should be OK (reduction due to the big guns)

Hs-129 should have 2x20mm + 2x7.9mm + 1x30mm giving 13 cannon + payload of at least 250KG for bombs
Or the real tank-buster with 3.7cm + 2x20mm + 2x13mm giving 18 cannon rating points but this plane is available late 1942
-> Maybe one Hs-129 of the first type arriving earlier (4/1942 but without the 30mm cannon ) with cost of 5 and the real tank buster 10-11/1942
-> Or use only the real tank buster late 1942
Standard HS-129 should have 250Kg = 4 bomb load (if used)

Remove both upgrade paths for Tank destroyers - the Ju87G/Slot10 is an exe-upgrade(hardcoded) to Fw190F so nothing more is needed

Rename He-111 to He-111H

German level bomber durability as well as bomb load rating should be : Do17Z -> He111H -> Ju88 -> Do217 -> He-177
Level bomber Durability : 32->36-Y40->44-58
-> He-177 is considered as heavy bomber so durabilty should get a +10 bonus
Level bomber bomb load : 15->31->46->62->108
Level bomber range : 17->30->27->32->47
-> Ju88/Do217 have much more range with reduced load as Do17/He111H but that's not needed in this game (you want to have full load for a big punch)

He-177 should not be limited in range as the 1943 version (A5) did not have the "Reichsfeuerzeug" problem of the earlier versions (engines catching fire due to hydraulic oil leakages)
Using the max load of 7t the He-177 should not have a range of 5000km as suggested nearly everywhere - assuming a combat range with
Max Load of 3000Km it would come up with 47 .

Do you have any knowledge of hardcoded upgrades for Me-110 or Me-110G ?
If not it may be possible to exchange Me-110 with Me-109K4 to have all Me-109 in order - 109E/F/G2/G6/K4 . (moving Me-110 somewhere below) .
Move Fw-190 one slot higher and move Fw190A8 in to have them in order
Maybe moving the Ju87 a little together (9+10+11 for B/G/D) as well as italian fighters . (17+18+20+21 for Mix/200/202/205)
The 110/410 may go to the end of the list (22+23+61 for 110/G/410)

Allied/Soviet planes:

Increase P47(C) to 23 maneuver and P47D to 24 - somehow comparable to Fw-190/Fw-190A5 in maneuver/Dogfight

In Talonsoft's Bombing the Reich the P40 is classified with 29 durability and P39 with 32 (similar in PacWar) not the other way round like in Wir

P38 should get 22 maneuver - better than P39/P40/Hurricane and a really fast plane
P51 should not be equal to Fw-190D - reduce maneuver to 27
P63 : maneuver should be lower - 22 - durab should be higher - 35
P39 : durab should be higher (32) - range 16
P40 : durab should be lower (27 durab comparable to 109G) - range 16
Reduce Spit maneuver to 26
Hurricane2 bomb load = 1000lbs = 7

A20 range : 492 = 500 = 25
B25 range : 744 = 740 = 37

The B17/B24 should have a bomb load of 6800/8000 according to some games/sites to achieve the long distances they fly in this game - max load is ~two time the typical load .
Typical load gives 47 for B17 and 56 for B24
B17/B24/He-177 durability should get +10 - they are much more durable than medium bombers

Type-2 aircraft are ground attack aircraft such as SU2 Sturmovik and Stuka .
Type-4 aírcraft are level bombers like Do17/217 Ju88 He111/177 IL4 Tu2 SB2 and Pe2(fast/light bomber)

A20/B25/IL4/Tu2 and SB2 should be classified as level bomber not ground attack
A20/Pe2 have been very fast aircraft capable of shooting down some fighters - should be reflected by 16/15 maneuver/dogfight

Somewhere in an old manual - either Second Frond for Amiga or WIR - I read level bombers count as artillery fire in combat and ground Attack/Tank Destroyer as AT fire but i don't know if it's still an active rule

TB3 should be classified as transport - primary role for this bomber in WIR

Pe2 should be classified as Ground attack as it was it's primary use - Tu2 should be level bomber as it replaces IL4 level bomber and the russians should have some planes for stratecic bombing (as they sometimes did against Berlin)

IL2 stats look good but IL2M3 should have the same cannon rating (additional MG are defensive armament) plus increased bomb load - 600 instead of 400 giving a 9 - plus 10 as range
IL10 should have 12 cannon rating (4x23mm - MG are defensive)
Maneuver ratings of IL2/M3/10 should be increased by 4 each - they have been very tough nuts to crack for german fighters

SB2 : (SB2-Bis) range 25 (1600km) load 17 (1100kg - 600 internal + 500 external) - level bomber(cannon 0) - upgradepath to IL4
Pe2 : 1200km = 18.75 = 19 1600kg(600int+1000ext) = 24,7 =25 1x12mm+1x7.62mm = cannon 3 - ground attack - mneuver/dogfight to 15
Tu2 : 2500km = 39 ~2500kg(1t int+1.5t )ext = 38,58 = 39 - level bomber (cannon 0) durab should be increased to 44
Su2 : 600Kg bombs = 9 - ground attack - Upgradepath to IL2
IL4 : 3500km = 55 (Berlin bomber) 2t load = 31 durab should be decreased to 40 - level bomber
TB3 : 2500km = 39 4x7.62 = cannon 4 - transport

My feeling says I15/16 are a little overrated - good maneuver but slooooow
I15 -2 to 14 maneuver/dogfight
Increase LaGG3 maneuver to 18 - not as bad ad it looks like
LaGG-3 : Fighter not fighter-bomber 870km = 14 3x12mm+2x7.62mm = cannon 8
MiG1 : increase mvr to 17 - decrease load to 3
Mig3 : increase mvr to 19 - increase load to 6 + increase range to 19 (1200km)
Yak1 : increase mvr to 20 - 850km = 13 - 200kg = 3 - 1x20mm+2x7.62mm = cannon 5
Yak-1M : Up-engined version with slightly redesign but same weapons so cannon 5 - range 710Km = 11
Yak3 : decrease mvr by 1 to 26 - increase range to 13
-> Yak-3 should be available mid/end 1943 as a development of the Yak-1 series - no need to include Yak-9t in this production line
-> Yak-9T is an Anti-Tank plane but built in smaller numbers with many diferent cannons (20/23/37mm)
Yak7 : Fighter-Bomber not fighter - range 13
Yak9 : lomg range Yak-9 was the Yak-9D so please rename - increase maneuver to 24 - range to 22
Yak9U : decrease mvr by 1 to 27
La-5/5FN : increase range to 12
La-5 : increase maneuver/dogfight to 23 (comparable to Me-109G)
La-7 : decrease range to 10