The price of entertainment

[Mr.Frag]

just my opinion, and hope that their new pricing strategy is a miserable failure.

Thats pretty poor form. Your opinion is based on utter nonsense which I have already shown. Those are US prices where bandwidth is the cheapest in the world in case you are interested.

Feel free to continue to enjoy Matrix's *free* [8|] bandwidth while you post your messages insulting them.

[Tomus]

I think it boils down to 2 things:

1. Matrix games look appalling I mean they really truly do. The interfaces are amateurish, HTTR is no exception there are no attractive cursors, no snazzy menus, nothing and the game interface for UV, HTTR, KP and EYSA are all rubbish. Frankly the games look like the sort of things that appeared in "Spectrum Rad" magazine in 1983 at the back in the type in your own games in section...what I am trying to say is that they look cheap and therefore amateur and therefore there could be a perception that people are paying over the odds for what is essentially someones programming hobby. Now I realise this isn't true but when you hear the devs go on about how much work they have done and I play for example UV and then have a crack at Ground Control II with all its snazzy effects and stuff I think I'm getting swizzed big time here by Matrix Games. Shallow but thats my perception at least. I love Matrix games and they are perfect on my laptop, but they compliment my games collection rather than are it...I realise all the work goes on under the hood and the deep strategy and excellent AI is awesome but honestly sort out your design issues and spend a bit of time for the guys who love a bit of Far Cry otherwise I think people simply will not take the games seriously especially as technology moves on, maybe thats why people are moaning because of their perception of the product.

2. I personally doubt the market has moved on enough that it is ready for a pure digital download of a game. Sorry but I will gladly pay £50 or whatever for most Matrix games but I want a nice shiny box and a manual...I don't want a 50 quid Zip file.

[young turk]

oh god frag, this is silly. you are stating the price for renting a pipe for yourself, i am stating the price charged for downloading a GB of data from someone else's pipe.

kindly stop revealing the utter nonsensical basis of my opinions. or at least read the post before you do. [:D]

and i don't think i am insulting matrix. they publish many of my favorite games. i just think their new pricing scheme is insulting, and i hope it fails miserably.

[wodin]

Tomus

The game syou have listed are developred by different people, not Matrix.

KP and the follow BiN have the most beautiful graphics i have seen on a real wargame.

WiTP looks awesome.

In fact your comments are the strangest Ive read in a long time. You cant compare these games to Far Cry. The wargames you have mentioned (except EYSA, were I have to agree due to the gamne mechanics of the system required 3d graphics which were poor)are some of the most striking I have seen.

Matrix doesnt have a say in what the graphical look will be like they publish games by diffferent companies.

I really feel you have no concept of wargames and the kind of visuals they require. To caompare UV to ground control is bloody odd to. And what computer did you own in 1983 that could show graphics of the same quality as UV. It must have cost a few million.

No wargamer will feel hard done by, by the standard of the graphics in the current crop of games. In fact you will not find many who frequent this forum who play FPS or 3d RTS games. These games here are for hardcore wargamers and many here see these games as THE collection not a compliment to one. I would see Ground Control and Far Cry as a compliment for a bit of a change but after 1 day of play be extremely bored indeed.

If you check my posts I have asked and demand good graphics for wargames and I feel with BiN and KP and Witp you get just that. Yes HTTR could have looked a little better but god the game is awesome.

[Golf33]

ORIGINAL: young turk

and i don't think i am insulting matrix. they publish many of my favorite games. i just think their new pricing scheme is insulting, and i hope it fails miserably.

Just remember one thing: if the new pricing scheme fails miserably, the problem will solve itself, because us and developers like us will be out of business and you won't have to worry about spending money on new games, because there won't be any... except for console shoot-em-up titles of course.

Regards
33

[Willard]

I have to disagree about 2 issues with that have been brought up.

First, I like the HTTR graphics. I don't think they look amateurish at all. They are, IMO, professionally done and look great...especially considering they are based on detailed and accurate maps. I am not a big fan of hex based maps, so the HTTR look presents an authentic appearance.

Second, it is one thing to want a less expensive product. It is quite another to wish for the new pricing scheme fails. If the new pricing scheme fails, then in essence there will be no sequel to HTTR or COTA. It is my belief that no one wants that...most of all the team at Panther. As I have posted before, I am not happy with the tentative price that has been discussed previously. However, there is alot of time between now and going gold and things change. I don't claim to know what the economics are about selling or wargaming development. Consequently, I will wait and see what COTA has to offer...when new screenshots are released, a detailed features list, previews, etc, I will make a decision. If at that time, I feel that COTA is worth the money I will buy. If I don't, then most likely I will look elsewhere.

[Tzar007]

I think the issue has been discussed largely enough.

young turk, if you believe 60$ is too much asking for COTA, well, just don't buy it. Simple. It's your right to believe it's too much, and it's your right to spend your money wherever you wish. There's no need to beat the issue to death.

[Grognard]

I think it boils down to 2 things:

1. Matrix games look appalling I mean they really truly do. The interfaces are amateurish, HTTR is no exception there are no attractive cursors, no snazzy menus, nothing and the game interface for UV, HTTR, KP and EYSA are all rubbish.

Amateurish Interfaces? Attractive Cursors?? SNAZZY MENUS???

I still enjoy playing V4V's Velikiye Luki because the engine was cutting edge at the time....
Wargames are ALL about gameplay/realism/AI. Put your eye candy where the sun don't shine or in some FPS (basically the same place). IMHO most folks in this forum want the most realistic simulation of an historical battle possible with the historical result as a benchmark. HTTR delivers the best yet. Some of us started by pushing little cardboard squares around a paper map and rolling a LOT of dice. What a joy just to point and click and have your units behave as they might have in the real world. I don't care what the stupid pointer looks like (although the target cursor IS hard to see at night). I will pay top $$ for a game in my chosen genre this good and this re-playable. The problem is determining what is top $$ and what is OVER the top. I'm ok with $60 US for a game WITH a printed manual. Without a hard copy we're talking about $75 plus my time and energy. Now it's starting to feel a little hinkey. I'll download it anyway but I hope there will be future modules in the $20 - $30 range.

[EricGuitarJames]

To a certain degree I understand what Tomus is saying, when compared to the likes of Ground Control II (or Warrior Kings or the Total War series for that matter) all wargames look a bit amateurish. It's probably this perception which has led to large scale retailers to save their already shrinking PC gaming shelf space for those FPS/RTS/RPG games with the snazzy graphics that look good on the back of the box. It's the way of the World unfortunately. I mean I'd love to see Panther produce a game with graphics like 'Rome: Total War' but with the extra cost that would entail and the relatively small customer base this simply isn't going t happen. Operational level wargames are probably going to be 2d and counter-based for some time to come. As regards game interfaces I think it's a matter of taste - I'm quite happy with UV and HTTR, I find KP rather un-intuitive!

Oh and I think Tomus is playing 'Devils' Advocate' if I read his post correctly[;)]

[Real and Simulated Wars]

ORIGINAL: Golf33
Just remember one thing: if the new pricing scheme fails miserably, the problem will solve itself, because us and developers like us will be out of business and you won't have to worry about spending money on new games, because there won't be any... except for console shoot-em-up titles of course.

With all due respect Golf33, I find your post a bit pedantic. If you read it with the wrong mindset, It almost feels like a mini-threat. Not all companies that produce quality wargames have your pricing scheme. Even if all companies take this scheme and we witness a catachlism of the magnitude you mention, there will be always somebody to take the post and start over. I appreciate your wonderful work, I bought and will buy all your products (hell, I imported my copy of RDoA from England, that's how much of a fan I am), but I don't fear your disappearance guys. If that happens (destiny forbids!) I will miss your work, but just until somebody superseeds your achievements. Is the market...

A CUSTOMER.

[Golf33]

I was originally a flight-simmer, playing Falcon4 (still have it installed but haven't had time to play in a long while). Once upon a time there was a new, high-detail jet combat sim coming out every year or two. Now - the only recent release has been LoMAC, which hasn't lived up to expectations and looks like having the plug pulled by the publisher. There are fewer new people coming in to the jet combat flightsim market, and almost none of the old developers are still in business. This means no new products for the fans to play, and years to wait before the current crop of open-source efforts bear fruit, if they ever do, which is doubtful.

Wargames are a bigger and (currently) healthier market, so it will take longer for the same thing to happen, but from my perspective it's a possibility. I don't mean to threaten anyone, just to point out that there is a significant gap between most people's view of game software development, and the rather less glamorous and far less profitable reality. The longer the gap between perception and reality continues, the greater the chance that the market will 'eat itself' as has happened in jet combat flightsims.

Regards
33

[Real and Simulated Wars]

Hi Golf,
Glad to reach to other flight simmer.

Regarding flight sims, you are right, the future looks dark.
I didn't have too much expectations for LOMAC. Right from the start (remember all the hype?), it was all about graphics. "Wow, look how good it looks!" instead of "how accurate radar modelling is gonna be?" kind of comments in the forums. So, when it came out I didn't suffer too much of disapointment. It looks great, but it runs like a dog and it lacks soul. I am done with it. What's next? Nothing in the horizon, you are right.

Regarding the profitability of developing wargames. I am not a business person. But a thing I always wonder is why the box of HTTR is not at the computer/games store. Many times I have seen grown ups making time while their kiddos browse their console stuff. It could be great to hook them while they wait for their kids.
As an illustration of how beneficial is to have boxes in the "stores for the masses", let me tell you how I got into your products:
-Always had an interest in WWII. Never had the money for exploring any hobby.
-Came to the USA (Bless this country!) and got a computer.
-First game bought: Close Combat 3. Loved it! I wanted more. Then bought CC2 and CC4.
-Bought $350 worth of crap (Sudden Strike, Blitzkrieg, WWII Frontline Command and many others I am ashamed to mention). Lost one good year in search of a new realistic wargame.
-Started forum browsing for explanations about the crap I bought. After many hyperlinks, I found out a wargaming community. The hardcore wargaming community was something totally new for me and I felt totally identified with them.
-From there I got into hard core wargames. Bought many of them and now I am on my way to be a wargamer.
See what I mean? How much time and money could I have saved if I would have stomped into a RDoA box a few years ago? How many people like me is out there now?

Another thing that is related to this is that WWII is a popular topic. The WWII shelf at bookstores has always somebody browsing and reading. Why don't you guys team with Osprey or other publisher and pack a book about Market Garden along with a copy of HTTR? How many WWII nuts would you hook with this? I would love to see something like that, I tell you.
Sorry for the rant,
Cheers,

[MarkShot]

A book/game bundle is a really interesting idea.

Another interesting idea, I think more for Matrix than PG, would be to explore something on the History Channel. Is there a large population of history focused individuals who are mainly passive in terms of historical media who could be enticed into a more interactive relationship with historical media?

I haven't been keeping up with flight sims too much these days, but I think the promise of advancement still remains with the third party individuals working with F4, BOB, and MA. I left RBII3D off that list, although great things have been accomplished, they are ultimately limited as they work without the benefit of source code.

Also, I tend to believe that markets for games like other forms of media entertainment tends to be cyclic. In some ways, it's more like a little ecosystem where a particular niche oscillates between near extinction to a rapid exponential growth/mass starvation/crash.

So, aside from open source modders, perhaps the best positioned entities are small/lean ventures working over long periods of time. Due to low overhead and great focus and passion, they can survive the lean times and they are well positioned to join in the feeding frenzy during the booms.

So, does anyone care to venture a prediction when the next boom for strategic realtime operational wargaming will take place? And what event(s) will trigger it?

I just thought I would inject some philosophical musings into today's conversation.

[CriticalMass]

What's next? Nothing in the horizon, you are right.

Chelco, until you're completely done, take a look at this FighterOps. You may even see some familiar faces there [;)]

Regardless of that though, from the "survey" of our buying habits I would have to ask: if there was more choice would we buy more? Alot of us buy 1-5 titles per year, for me, there are always some that slip throught the net (ED: or you can't afford, more like).

At least now, I'm spending more of my limited budget on better quality games.

And finally, there will always be a home for the good developer.

TANX
Andrew

[Real and Simulated Wars]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
Another interesting idea, I think more for Matrix than PG, would be to explore something on the History Channel. Is there a large population of history focused individuals who are mainly passive in terms of historical media who could be enticed into a more interactive relationship with historical media?

Exactly! The History Channel is even a better idea than the book thing.

Also, I tend to believe that markets for games like other forms of media entertainment tends to be cyclic. In some ways, it's more like a little ecosystem where a particular niche oscillates between near extinction to a rapid exponential growth/mass starvation/crash.

If you think so you may like this book: "Critical Mass. How one thing leads to another" by Phillip Ball.

Cheers,

[CriticalMass]

Here in the UK there's been a BBC TV show (and for the life of me I don't recall what it was called). Basically four "civilians" were tasked with fighting a famous battle in history, but the best thing was it used a "BETA" version of Rome:Total War as the simulator:

Two of the civs were Generals, standing around a top-down digital "sandpit" of the battlefield. Two were Lieutenants, communicating with two operatives doing all the game inputs ie. the combatants. Hence, a chain of command, and boy, did it get heated [X(].

Not only was this entertaining [ED: you were never alowed to watch it] (I was [:@]) but at the time I thought it was a great selling tool. Now if some one could bankroll a digital channel dedicated to.............[8D].

TANX
Andrew

[EricGuitarJames]

The programme was called 'Time Commanders'. It was a shame that some of the 'commanders' were, how can I say it, well..... 'cr@p. I also felt that more could have been made of Creative Assembly's involvement, maybe it will when 'Rome: Total War' is released.

The 'net is probably the best bet for an 'audio-visual wargaming experience' in the near future.

[CriticalMass]

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

The programme was called 'Time Commanders'. It was a shame that some of the 'commanders' were, how can I say it, well..... 'cr@p. I also felt that more could have been made of Creative Assembly's involvement, maybe it will when 'Rome: Total War' is released.

The 'net is probably the best bet for an 'audio-visual wargaming experience' in the near future.

EGJ,

of course they were cr...not very good. And a good job too. There's ALOT to live up too after Yakstock and yerslves AAR! .

Anyway, why all the negativity [;)], you could have been watching "My Family"!

TANX
Andrew

[EricGuitarJames]

Anyway, why all the negativity , you could have been watching "My Family"!

Don't, my niece and nephew try and inflict that on me whenever I'm there and it's on tv - I normally excuse myself to do 'something' with their computer[;)]

I can envisage myself and Yakstock on the tele playing HTTR, probably best you don't[:D]

[JeF]

Sorry to bump the thread for this kind of response, but I could not resist.

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
A book/game bundle is a really interesting idea.

It has already been done. My CD of Airborne Assault:Red Devils over Arnhem came inside of a book called : Red Devils over Arnhem. It was written by Steve Barnes and Dave O'Connor. Among other things there was a description of the MG campaign, a detailed analysis of the battle of Arnhem and a small strategy guide. I think this is what you usually call a Printed User Manual. [;)]

Anyway. More seriously, computer books/magazines come with software on CD (not only demo or example, but whole applications). Why not for computer wargames ? (*)

Now there is just one thing : is the audience of a good book about WWII the same as the audience for a computer wargame ? I guess the intersection of both populations is smaller than one might think.

Cheers,

JeF. [:'(]
(*) I'm cheating once more : BF.C has a similar offer currently.