Kooky-I still have yet to see that happen- I'm not saying you're wrong, or anything, just that I've never, ever seen it happen..remind me to borrow your CPU when I play IJ
(In a related side note, included for the sake of good humor: I DID see one single PT boat take 8! count 'em 8! 18" hits from Yamato once...That must've REALLY been something to see-I guess the AI has a very interesting idea of overkill)
This is another odd bit-In this combat report(see attachment), you see how when you attack a base hex with PT boats at anchor, the AI will keep creating and feeding in new PT boat task forces until they overwhelm an attacking force by sheer numbers-In my test, I had 1 25 PT boat force (1st round) then, in new 6 boat TF's, the succesive waves created by the AI will proceed to sink a pretty impressive surface TF.
-that's pretty bad, incidentally...It makes any PT boat harboring base a waste of shipping material to invade..or bombard...They're essentially invasion insurance...that's a bad exploit in it's own right
Again, as with ASW, it REALLY bothers and worries me that people with a strategic game are attempting to model PTs from the bottom up (from attempting to get microtactical technology and things about them right and) rather than the top down (doing a bit of research to find out what was ACTUALLY SUNK during the war by American PT boats, why they sank what they sank, and then attempting to get the game to come within a ballpark figure of that.)
After a quick search on the web I was unable to find any comprehensive listing of PT boat kills, so it's going to require some library research.
I do know the actual kills of Japanese warships (DD and larger) was pretty small. But trying to at least address that question should be the first step in solving the "PT problem.
I don't know how many times you have engaged PT boats, but the above example was in the first try. So it is not that uncommon. What I have noticed is that TF composition and leader is very important, ie a big 20+ ship TF with an average leader will get hurt sometimes.
ORIGINAL: Tenzan
This is another odd bit-In this combat report(see attachment), you see how when you attack a base hex with PT boats at anchor, the AI will keep creating and feeding in new PT boat task forces until they overwhelm an attacking force by sheer numbers-In my test, I had 1 25 PT boat force (1st round) then, in new 6 boat TF's, the succesive waves created by the AI will proceed to sink a pretty impressive surface TF.
-that's pretty bad, incidentally...It makes any PT boat harboring base a waste of shipping material to invade..or bombard...They're essentially invasion insurance...that's a bad exploit in it's own right
Well, I'm all for some restrictions in size and numbers of PT boats at a base.
@JohnK:
You have to simulate the hardware because players use different strategies in WitP. In a WitP game Bettys will sink much more shipping than in the real war, because both allied and japanese players will be more aggressive. Same with PT boats.
(In a related side note, included for the sake of good humor: I DID see one single PT boat take 8! count 'em 8! 18" hits from Yamato once...That must've REALLY been something to see-I guess the AI has a very interesting idea of overkill)
Would there have been much left to target after the first hit? [:D]
You have to simulate the hardware because players use different strategies in WitP. In a WitP game Bettys will sink much more shipping than in the real war, because both allied and japanese players will be more aggressive. Same with PT boats.
I'm not saying the game should be tweaked so the Allied PT boat kills match reality EXACTLY; I'm saying that people should at least bother to LOOK at the actual number of Allied PT boat kills to keep in the back of their head while they're tweaking the details of PT boats; my problem with these various game issues is that people aren't even LOOKING at the reality of WWII which the game is trying to model before immediately diving into microtactical issues.
And I think the detail of WITP is causing people to kid themselves that this is a tactical simulation, which it is not; WITP is a strategic game that gives a sort of false impression of detailed reality in its combat resolution.
If there was a way for Allied PT boats to kill lots of large Japanese surface warships I'm sure they would have figured it out in the war.
You have to simulate the hardware because players use different strategies in WitP. In a WitP game Bettys will sink much more shipping than in the real war, because both allied and japanese players will be more aggressive. Same with PT boats.
I'm not saying the game should be tweaked so the Allied PT boat kills match reality EXACTLY; I'm saying that people should at least bother to LOOK at the actual number of Allied PT boat kills to keep in the back of their head while they're tweaking the details of PT boats; my problem with these various game issues is that people aren't even LOOKING at the reality of WWII which the game is trying to model before immediately diving into microtactical issues.
And I think the detail of WITP is causing people to kid themselves that this is a tactical simulation, which it is not; WITP is a strategic game that gives a sort of false impression of detailed reality in its combat resolution.
If there was a way for Allied PT boats to kill lots of large Japanese surface warships I'm sure they would have figured it out in the war.
Well,
PT Boats Could Have Been effective if used right, basically, at night in positions hidden, hard to spot, and
close to targets, their speed, could get them in quick, consider a BB or CA passing a at rest PT group
that takes off coming in at a fast speed, when the targets are less then 3000 away, 18 inchers and such would be ineffective at short range, the PT's could get torps off in water , they would however then be vulnerable to smaller guns and once pulling away vulnerable to bigger guns but the BB and CA's could by then have taken Torp hits.
PT's were effective at night, coming out of cover, but there lies the problem, they needed to attack from a covered
place like hidden near to an island, hard to spot and wait till targets came close enough to run in.
Open sea, PT's just couldn't attack effective nor that well in daylight,
nor at night if in a place that their easy to spot..
Don't know if that was considered in coding them.
Noise? What Noise? It's sooooo quiet and Peaceful! Battlestar Pegasus
And I think the detail of WITP is causing people to kid themselves that this is a tactical simulation, which it is not; WITP is a strategic game that gives a sort of false impression of detailed reality in its combat resolution.
Good point-however, I'd give WITP alot of credit in this dept! Combat resolution feels alot better than it did in UV, for example...The only two main problem areas I've seen so far are PT boat armadas, and clairvoyant ASW-
PT boats kind of remind me of the jeep debacle from TOAW (If you didn't play it-it was a huge issue when it was proved 100 jeeps could destroy a king tiger unit..In other words, the simplicity of the combat resolution was 'exposed' as a sort of bean-counter..or so the argument ran) in that it is because of the simplicities of the combat resolution that you see the odd results in combat; like no 'staggered' range, or TF layout, etc, but..The real issue as I see it is: stockpiling them at bases, and making them invasion proof..
And, I have no idea how they'll fix it...But, the good thing is that, unlike UV, WITP is just beginning in post-release development, and I'm sure it'll get looked at and worked on...
PT Boats Could Have Been effective if used right, basically, at night in positions hidden, hard to spot, and
close to targets, their speed, could get them in quick, consider a BB or CA passing a at rest PT group
that takes off coming in at a fast speed, when the targets are less then 3000 away, 18 inchers and such would be ineffective at short range, the PT's could get torps off in water , they would however then be vulnerable to smaller guns and once pulling away vulnerable to bigger guns but the BB and CA's could by then have taken Torp hits.
the 'could have' bit about PT's in an interesting question...
The closest match for data would be a look at the numbers on German E-boat raids, but..
the same story applies to the U.S. versions..mostly they patrolled, with the German emphasis on commerce raiding.
I don't personally think PT's would have been avle to oppose a surface force in battle disposition...A destroyer screen would've...well, destroyed it! A good near miss from any decent piece of ordinance would've put a PT out of action, most likely, not to mention a destroyer screen 'charge'..I believe it would've been a suicide mission, with any offensive action relegated to a 'pot shot' more or less..Now..there's other factors that make it more complicated (working in conjunction with friendly Surface TF's, visibility conditions/radar capability, etc) but..in the PB&J version...I think it would've been a suicide mission.
I think the MTB was a naval revolution that never happened...The Germans did make dandy use of them as commerce raiders, though...The U.S. doctrinal use of cheap patrol craft was good too....
Simple fix to the invasion-stoppers. PBEM: No more than one TF with say 8 boats per base. Slap in a rule about only using coastal hexes if you want. AI: I haven't seen the AI use PT boats in numbers, except in the Marianas scenario. Correct me if im wrong. Anyway a surface TF with a good leader will beat the crap out of a PT boat TF 9 out of 10 times.
Allied Ships
PT PT-62, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
PT PT-73
PT PT-131
PT PT-310
PT PT-323, Shell hits 1, on fire
PT PT-497
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Satawal at 60,74
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, Shell hits 5
DD Wakazuki, Shell hits 8, on fire
DD Shimotsuki, Shell hits 2
DD Tamanami, Shell hits 1
DD Fujinami
DD Okinami
Allied Ships
PT PT-106, Shell hits 22, and is sunk
PT PT-108, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
PT PT-126
PT PT-132
PT PT-168
PT PT-451, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Satawal at 60,74
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Wakazuki, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Shimotsuki, Shell hits 2
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
DD Okinami
Allied Ships
PT PT-133, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT PT-134, Shell hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-137, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-138, Shell hits 1, on fire
PT PT-237
PT PT-334, Shell hits 29, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Satawal at 60,74
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Wakazuki, on fire
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
DD Okinami
Allied Ships
PT PT-167
PT PT-236, Shell hits 11, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-335
PT PT-460, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
PT PT-472, Shell hits 10, and is sunk
PT PT-524, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Satawal at 60,74
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, on fire, heavy damage
DD Wakazuki, on fire
DD Shimotsuki, Shell hits 11, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami, Shell hits 1
DD Okinami
Allied Ships
PT PT-163
PT PT-169
PT PT-170, Shell hits 1, on fire
PT PT-235
PT PT-238
PT PT-332, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Satawal at 60,74
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Wakazuki, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Shimotsuki, and is sunk
DD Tamanami, Shell hits 2
DD Fujinami, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Okinami
Allied Ships
PT PT-248, Shell hits 12, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-249
PT PT-305
PT PT-307
PT PT-324, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-473
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Satawal at 60,74
Japanese Ships
DD Wakazuki, and is sunk
DD Tamanami, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Fujinami, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
DD Okinami, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
Allied Ships
PT PT-250
PT PT-261
PT PT-262, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
PT PT-263
PT PT-382
PT PT-383
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Satawal at 60,74
Japanese Ships
DD Tamanami, on fire
DD Okinami, on fire, heavy damage
Allied Ships
PT PT-126, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
PT PT-128, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
PT PT-129
PT PT-130
PT PT-131
PT PT-132, Shell hits 18, and is sunk
PT PT-133, Shell hits 22, and is sunk
PT PT-134, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
DD Kishinami
DD Okinami
Allied Ships
PT PT-138
PT PT-163, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-167
PT PT-168
PT PT-169, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
PT PT-170
PT PT-235, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-236, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
DD Kishinami
DD Okinami
Allied Ships
PT PT-237, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
PT PT-238
PT PT-248, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
PT PT-249, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
PT PT-250, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
PT PT-261
PT PT-262
PT PT-263
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
DD Kishinami
DD Okinami
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
DD Kishinami
DD Okinami, on fire
Allied Ships
PT PT-66
PT PT-73, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
PT PT-77, Shell hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-79
PT PT-105
PT PT-106
PT PT-107
PT PT-108, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
DD Kishinami, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Okinami, on fire
Allied Ships
PT PT-124
PT PT-125, Shell hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-137, Shell hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-264, Shell hits 9, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-300
PT PT-301, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT PT-304, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-305
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hatsuzuki, on fire
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki, on fire
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
DD Kishinami, on fire
DD Okinami, on fire
Allied Ships
PT PT-306
PT PT-307
PT PT-308, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
PT PT-309, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
PT PT-310
PT PT-311
PT PT-312
PT PT-313
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hatsuzuki, on fire
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
DD Kishinami, on fire
DD Okinami, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Hatsuzuki, on fire
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki, on fire, heavy damage
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
DD Kishinami, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Okinami, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
DD Hatsuzuki, on fire
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
DD Kishinami, on fire, heavy damage
DD Okinami, on fire
Allied Ships
PT PT-343, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
PT PT-360
PT PT-361
PT PT-362
PT PT-363, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
PT PT-372, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-373
PT PT-374
Result: 29 PT boats sunk vs 2 DDs plus 1 that has 49 flotation damage.
My Dad used to be a helmsman on PT boats in the Med during WWII,
I showed him some of these results, He immediately noticed that there were way two many boats in a squadron (what we call a TF)
They used to chase down German “F” lighters and E Boats and they never hit them with more than a 5 or 6 boat squadron, with most of the time running in 2 - 3 boat squadrons. He says these are close quarter vessels they liked to get in under the heavy guns and they found that running in two 3 boat waves gave them good maneuvering room.
I don’t know if there’s a problem or not, I never use my PT’s in more than a 5 boat TF. Don’t get the same results that way, but I like the harassment capabilities of the small unit attacks.
Mr.Frag said it, I didn't--I assumed he knew something I didn't, so I tried it out..It certainly wasn't a 'handful creaming the hundreds'..but, I suspect now that was an exaggeration to begin with....
Just for the heck of it I tried something similar:
You realize that at Guam there's Japanese CD guns helping out, right? And are you using the same rated leaders? In my test If got both 60/60's promising and careful surface fleet jocks..... At any rate..I've run the same test at Sawatal 20 times now and not once has one single DD survived...the average out of the twenty takes has been 14 PT boats destroyed for 8 DD's destroyed
Moquia, I'm starting to believe we must be playing different versions!
lol..did you get the patch early, or something?
Mr Frag:
When you guys run these tests? FoW off, Head 2 Head to eliminate any bonuses?
Yep-Of course!
-In addendum...
We'll see if the dev. group thinks PT boats are problematic or not when the patch (or the next one) comes out...I feel like I've said all I can say about it..I feel that they're overeffective, and I don't see any trick or tactic that I'm not using that's effective in limiting losses to them..Posting combat reports isn't really proving anything, either way..
So...I leave it in the hands of the development group for now...I'm interested to hear an 'official' take on the PT boats, IIRC there hasn't been one posted yet? Now....where's that patch!
You realize that at Guam there's Japanese CD guns helping out, right? And are you using the same rated leaders? In my test If got both 60/60's promising and careful surface fleet jocks..... At any rate..I've run the same test at Sawatal 20 times now and not once has one single DD survived...the average out of the twenty takes has been 14 PT boats destroyed for 8 DD's destroyed
I made Guam an allied base in my test scenario, just some fuel and supply there. Ive used Tanaka as japanese leader and some good allied leaders for the PT boats. Btw if you are using a save just before the action i think the random number will be the same, ei same result 20 times. And yes head to head.
I have to much time on my hand, so I ran the following scenario 10 times:
8xDDs vs. 11x8 PT boats. Leader japanese Tanaka (75/91) (I like the man). Leader allies (62/65), (68/69), (62/67), (55/57), (58/63), (61/59), (65/64), (64/64), (62/64), (62/65), (70/71).
1: 3 DDs sunk vs. 28 PT boats (1 DD with 58 float)
2: 1 DD sunk vs. 30 PT boats (3 DDs with 18, 44 and 71 float)
3: 4 DDs sunk vs. 26 PT boats (1 DD with 89 float; Tanaka dies)
4: 2 DDs sunk vs. 25 PT boats (1 DD with 55 float)
5: 2 DDs sunk vs. 25 PT boats (3 DDs with 88, 93 and 81 float)
6: 2 DDs sunk vs. 30 PT boats (3 DDs with 25, 79 and 62 float; Tanaka dies)
7: 7 DDs sunk vs. 10 PT boats (1 DD with 57 float; Tanaka dies; A clear allied victory)
8: 2 DDs sunk vs. 26 PT boats ( 3 DDs with 6, 57 and 92 float)
9: 0 DDs sunk vs 37 PT boats ( 1 DD with 96 float; A japanese victory here)
10: 1 DD sunk vs 36 PT boats (4 DDs with 38, 57, 69 and 37 float)
I would gladly email someone the savefile, if they would like to comfirm the results. Just make a different allied taskforce at Kwajalein when you reload, to shuffle the dices.
Those are exactly the kinds of tests we need run to tweek anything.
Run another couple of sets, work out the averages and you've got some pretty good data with the random factor under control. As you can see, luck of war plays a major roll ... varience from 7 to 0
