Just to kill the Pilot Pools too low thread

[mogami]

Hi, The Japanese player in WITP should ALWAYS have better pilots in 1944/45 compared to history because.

He is able to start the process to provide replacements before he has the need. The Japanese ramped up their pilot training after they had begun to suffer the increase in pilot loss at the front. The WITP Japanese player should have pilots training on Map not later then Mid March 1942. These pilots will be the replacements for early 1943. If he begins another batch in Mid 1942 he will pilots in Mid 1943. And so on. The pilots used in early 43 will provide the groups for early 1944. (and then again in 1945)

What he will find hard to do is train a vast quanity of pilots at any one time. Pilot training consumes supply. (27xA6M2 Daitai consumes 54 supply per dayx180 days=9720 supply to train a single Daitai ) 1000 pilots training at once would require 2000 supply per day out of 25,000 supply produced daily by Japan. (360,000 supply for 6 months)

If you see the cost you realize why it has to be on map or Japan gets too many "free" pilots. Figure the supply for the pilots Japan already gets free and you'll be thankfull since I personally felt only pilots in pool at start should be free and all groups should arrive on map and require training.


Brady if you pay attention during a turn you will note that Japanese LCU and ships train on map. However in order for a LCU to train in must be in it's objective hex and it must have reached 100 prep. All ships in TF that are at sea train.


It is you who insists on making training abstract. I repeatedly fail to impress onto you that training cannot be abstract because of it's impact on the Japanese economy. Japan will (or can have) have trained pilots as long as she has the supply to do the training. There is no free lunch regarding Japanese pilots outside of the more then generous allowance for the pool and arriving groups. (In the scenario file I will do for human Japanese I will remove all the RD factories and all the upgrade paths and all the pilots)

[Brady]

I dont have a problem with having to pay to train them, just that they game is sooo not set up for this, we dont have any training planes in the game to train the men on. If we are to train them on map we nead traing planes Not Zero's or other types) impresed in this role, the piolets would spend only a fraction of thier traing time in Type realy before being sent to their combat unit. So We would nead a couple New plane types added to the game as trainers for the army and the Navy, generic to be shure, and this would nead to be scalable, to represent the true nature of the programe, so engines and airframes would nead to be added to the production selections and the amounts of resources and suply increased to alow for this added demand on the totaly abstracted system that has been created to represent the Japanese ecenomy. As I mentioned above the problem in part hear is that we can not creat Airunits in the game...that is we cant build a given number of planes and have a unit automaticaly form, or we cant chuse to form a new unit, to build a traing system to represent the one Japan created we would nead to be able to do this.

[mogami]

Now you are just splitting hairs. A pilot cannot be used in a group without a plane. Does it matter if he brings it with him or gets one when he gets to the group. No one else is going to be flying it. The best way to prove you trained a A6M2 pilot is to have him train in a A6M2

It's a game. The game has rules. The rules for pilot training are simple

Do it yourself or use untrained pilots.

[Brady]

To train the men in the numbers that they were trained in you would nead to build Zero's (for example) in Numbers far exceading their historicaly corect ones. The most commom and largest built Navy Trainer was I beelave the K5Y series with over 5,700 built during the war and mounting a Hitachi engine. This is what I am talking about, historicaly far cheaper and easer to build and truly represenative of the type that may were trained in, after training in this type men were switched to their primary type, so if they were going to a fighter school they would get in a Fighter plane typicaly an obsoleat plane type, like a A5M for instance was used then on to the type tehy would see action in but only in the grad scheam of traing for a very brief time before being sent to a front line unit.

Just to be clear what I am seeing is this:

Traing unit: K5Y: Piolets come from the pool Untrained to this unit, they are disbanded into a trained pool or to a unit, this would requier a special code for this plane type to alow for this. We can build as many or as few of these planes as we want. Again requiring a special code to alow for the creation of units so equiped withen the game.

..............................

"It's a game. The game has rules. The rules for pilot training are simple

Do it yourself or use untrained pilots"

This is the problem with the present model, you should not have to use the units in the game to train piolets to the degree you have to now, since the game is totaly not representing the numbers traied by the Japanese at present as noted above by me their is a HUGE gulf between how many were traied and how many we get in the game that are trained and come in units suposadly combat ready. The units that apear on map should be combat ready units, units already worked up. If you want traing to be done on the map then we nead to creat units for this and this alone.

[Mr.Frag]

historicaly far cheaper and easer to build and truly represenative of the type that may were trained in,

But Brady, that is *exactly* the point here that you don't seem to be getting.

There is no price difference between building a training aircraft and building a real aircraft because this is a simple game. You don't have to train pilots in trainers and incur the cost of building yet another aircraft and engine for each pilot. Pilots enter the game already trained to a basic level, even the ones coming out of the depleted pool. They do not enter play with a skill of 0. You seem to keep missing on this point.

This training is *free*. Japan had to *pay* for this training. Don't complain about free or you will end up down the path that Mog & I wanted to head which is *NOTHING* is free. You get *NO* pilots at all, there is *NO* pool. You train each and every pilot from skill 0 to whenever you choose to put them into action. This is probably far more *realism* then most WitP folks want to have to deal with.

As is, pilots will magically show up anywhere on the map that you happen to need them. That is *such* a luxury that it is beyond funny. Picture actually having to train your pilots then fly them where you need them on a transport that just might get shot down. [:D]

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: freeboy
It is this exact issue of declining quality and quantity that those what if proponents want to change... And due to the fundemental preceipt I see from the designer this will never officially be changed... my guess.

I hope you're right.

[Nikademus]

I think what Brady is trying to say is this:

Using Mogami's clever system, you can train new pilots who come out of the "basic flight school" program which is abstracted (classroom....time in "trainer class" aircraft) using *front line aircraft* which in many cases represents advanced training. This is all fine and good.....no problem with it.

However you can only train as many pilots who come out of the abstracted pool as you delegate front line aircraft datai's to do it. There's no way to really get ahead of the game because you cannot begin training these newbies until you do the 'disband' trick and set aside those aircraft.

I agree that the Japanese dilemma of fuel and cost ratios (as well as available aircraft and just as important if not more so) needs to be represented in order to properly simulate the historical situation. Thats why i think my idea for a possible "wish list" item.....that non-high level graduate pilots (represented by the onscreen pilot pool) have a tier system for experience based on the year is a suitible compromise. It does after all, only mirror that system which is already in place for the reinforcement squadrons that come onto the map. Their exp levels are governed by that very same system.

One would STILL need to train them....even in 1942 because one would much rather have an exp 65 (i believe the max level one can "Train" up to short of combat exp) than say, an exp 50 pilot. As the years progress, for Japan at least, the starting exp value to "train up from" gets lower and lower thus a system like Mogami's is STILL needed. It just makes it so that the "curve" is not so severe from day 1.

Would work for the Allies too only their exp levels dont drop as drastically by year as the Japanese do because they never suffer a plane or fuel shortage.

[mogami]

Hi, There is no code change required. Brady justs creates as many Daitai as he wants. He places them on the map (empty) he decides what Aircraft to assign and trains the pilots. It is not important if he creates too many Daitai as long as he has more then he can use he is fine. I think this is the perfect solution. Now Brady.....Brady....BRADY put down that comic book and listen here lad. [:-]

How many pilots do you want to train at once? Divide that number by 18 make your groups Daitai (or Sentai) so they can split into 3 parts. Now we never have to listen to you complain again.

[Brady]

"Using Mogami's clever system, you can train new pilots who come out of the "basic flight school" program which is abstracted (classroom....time in "trainer class" aircraft) using *front line aircraft* which in many cases represents advanced training. This is all fine and good.....no problem with it.

However you can only train as many pilots who come out of the abstracted pool as you delegate front line aircraft datai's to do it. There's no way to really get ahead of the game because you cannot begin training these newbies until you do the 'disband' trick and set aside those aircraft. "

As noted the problem is that these units represent ones that existed historicaly and we see them around the time that they were available for combat operations, to have to use them for training is bs and efectively removes about 1/3 of your fighting force from combat.

As noted above the game does not adaquatly represent the true leval of traing the men in the pool should have..the untrianed or so it is called pool is bs, it should be scaled like Nikademus sugests. Though the problem hear is that it is not scalable to the war situation. but it is the lesser of two evials.

[Brady]

"Now we never have to listen to you complain again."

Only unitll I tier of this topic and actualy look at another aspect of the game that has to be criticaly analised.

[mogami]

Forget the friggen pools. Thats the point. Forget they exist. Blot them out of your mind. The pools do not exist. Let me hear you say it "The...POOLS....Do....Not....Exist"

tHE FRIGGEN POOLS are Japans civilian population. Not Japans pilot schools. The only valid complait I see here is not enough Daitai to train. Well go back to 6 months ago when this all began "Create more Daitai" was the answer then and remains the answer today.

I really am interested in seeing the numbers of pilots you train compared to the number of pilots I train.

[Brady]

I would be Happy..well as Happy as posable I suspect with either of the following:

Non-ready pilot pool value 1942 = 60
Non ready pilot pool value 1943 = 50
Non ready pilot pool value 1944 = 25-30
Non ready pilot pool value 1945 = 10-20

Or

Traing Aircraft For the Navy and the Army, specific aircraft and units geared towrd this end alone (K5Y). Planes and Units that nead to built and fed, and that the game has made Resource alowances for.

[mogami]

Brady, I'm not believing my eyes. Did you in the post right after my post where I say "Forget the zfriggen Pools" post a table for the friggen pools? Did you?

Now why would you want to make it any harder then it has to be? The Japanese have to have ready aircraft to use these pilots they spend all this time training so why not just train them in the aircraft they will fly in combat?

You seem to be wanting it all. If you have no trained pilots you don't need the aircraft in the pool. If you have aircraft in the pool you train the pilots. Just create your training Daitai and go play.

[Brady]

"Brady, I'm not believing my eyes. Did you in the post right after my post where I say "Forget the zfriggen Pools" post a table for the friggen pools? Did you? "

Well ya their are two solutions to this at present the one Nikademus sugests using the Pool model..man I said it again huh.....

And your sugestion.

"Now why would you want to make it any harder then it has to be? The Japanese have to have ready aircraft to use these pilots they spend all this time training so why not just train them in the aircraft they will fly in combat? "

Because these planes should be in Combate not in the rear working up, that as abstracted in the game should remain so(depending on the system we chuse), and to alow for this we would have to build these types in unrealisticly large numbers and creat fixtishious units to alow for this, unless you want to alow these units on map way before they would be available historicaly to alow suficient time for them to work up on map.

[mogami]

OK I'll summerize the pilot training for Japan one more time.

Japan begins the game with
14xIJN fighter Daitai and 3xIJN fighter Chutai (not including CV assigned groups)

For a total when all groups at full strength of 405 IJN fighters.

In the first 365 days 6 more Daitai arrive. Making the total on map when full Dec 1942 567 IJN figher pilots.

20x Daitai and 3x Chutai and yet there are not enough to assign any of them to training.

Here is a hint. If you cannot provide pilots to the groups in combat then you will need fewer groups in combat. There is no place to use 21 Daitai of A6M2 in first 365 days where they are all active in combat and replacement pilots provided. Japan would have only needed to train 50 fighter pilots per month to replace the entire force during the course of the first year. We part company if you say Japan replaced her entire fighter force during the first year with "TRAINED" pilots. I think Japan maintained only a fraction of that 567 total and even then the groups at the front were always short pilots. The groups at the front were not short aircraft because there were no aircraft to send. They did not have pilots to fly them.

You never have to produce any more aircraft then you are producing pilots. Why? Because aircraft do not fly without a pilot. So if you are training pilots then you can use the aircraft because before you can use him in combat you have to have the aircraft and the aircraft are much easier to build then the pilots are to train.


(Flying just the 405 you start with would cost almost 300k supply for the first year)

[Brady]

From above:

"Even if we alow for prewar traing and reduce that figure to say 16,000 you looking at 444 a month to train just the dead. "


We part company. While for the first part of the war this is crazy to be shure, this is non the less the average monthly figure, and a seriously low one at that, this based soly on the Dead from Japans Navy Training Schools. This the problem or well part of it, while it looks as though you dont buy my referanced figurs for the piolets or their traing conducted during the war, yuo likewise dont grasp what I am geting at as a result.

[Nikademus]

Well....i tried.

If everyone wants to keep butting heads and not meet halfway......have at it. One last attempt to restore some peace. I've requested that my idea be added to the wish list. AS always....this is in no shape or form any kind of promise or guarantee of future change. That is strictly up to the developers if they feel such a change is warrented.

[Brady]

Hey Like I said above either way is cool by me, anyhting would be better than the present model...well not just anything but I think that either system will be a great improvement and better refelect the true situation.

[Mr.Frag]

Always remember that a LOT of folks want to play against the Computer.

The current system allows this to happen. There are a million and one things that could be done BUT it always comes back to that problem ... does it work with the Computer playing a side?

[Brady]

Adjusting the pool and scaling it as sugested would seam the easyist fix.