The Poles should have won WW2!

Gen. Maczek · Post by **Gen. Maczek** » Wed Jun 06, 2001 10:42 pm

Originally posted by pbear:

Sounds like an excelent subject for a MegaCampain. Is Matrix lisening?

I agree completely...
I now have the whole summer free since I have finished my studies at school, and would be happy to assist in any way possible if Matrix decided on the creation of a MegaCampaign on the above subject...I have bookshelves full of material and reference on the Polish Campaign, as well as more importantly access to people who participated.
My grandfather was one of the soldiers who defended Westerplatte, although Im not sure that the name will mean much to anyone but Poles...The best example of comparison I can give is, that it was in effect a Polish 'Red October'. 180 Polish soldiers with orders to hold their positions for 6 hours, repulsed repeated and overwhelming German assaults which were supported by armour, air bombardment and even direct shelling from the German pocket battleship Schleswig-Holstein. Instead of 6 hours, the defenders held on for 7 days and 8 nights. The greatest testament to the bravery of the defenders was the German response after the surrender had finaly taken place .As the prisoners marched past those they had fought only hours earlier, the German troops snapped to attention and stood in grave silence, honouring the bravery displayed by the Polish soldiers. The commander of the garrison, Major Henryk Sucharski, was recieved with a salute and a handshake, and was permited to take his dress sword into captivity. It was one of the few occassion where the Germans acted with gallantry in Poland...
Anyway enough of the history talk. I would love to see it recreated

Regards.
Gen. Maczek

[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Gen. Maczek ]

Paulus Pak · Post by **Paulus Pak** » Wed Jun 06, 2001 11:02 pm

Originally posted by Gen. Maczek:

I agree completely...
I now have the whole summer free since I have finished my studies at school, and would be happy to assist in any way possible if Matrix decided on the creation of a MegaCampaign on the above subject...I have bookshelves full of material and reference on the Polish Campaign, as well as more importantly access to people who participated.
My grandfather was one of the soldiers who defended Westerplatte, although Im not sure that the name will mean much to anyone but Poles...The best example of comparison I can give is, that it was in effect a Polish 'Red October', where for 7 days and 8 nights 160 Polish soldiers held their positions against repeated and overwhelming German assault which was supported by armour, air bombardment and even direct shelling from the German pocket battleship Schleswig-Holstein.
Anyway enough of the history talk. I would love to see it recreated
Regards.
Gen. Maczek

[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Gen. Maczek ]

I can only add, that originally Westerplatte was to defend only for one or two days. They held for a week and Westerplatte became a symbol of Polish heroism.

Gloo · Post by **Gloo** » Mon Jun 11, 2001 5:42 pm

Originally posted by pbear:
Sounds like an excelent subject for a MegaCampain. Is Matrix lisening?

Well, I don't know if that would sound that interesting to most of the players? Many seem to prefer playing with big toys like Tigers and T34 rather than PzII and TKS... :p
Don't forget that MC is a commercial add-on!

Gloo · Post by **Gloo** » Mon Jun 11, 2001 6:15 pm

Originally posted by Gen. Maczek:
...My grandfather was one of the soldiers who defended Westerplatte, although Im not sure that the name will mean much to anyone but Poles...

Really interesting to read first-hand sources for mine are talking about 174 infantry men, 22 civil servants and five officers. For the armament, it says four 88mm mortars under concrete shelters, a 75mm infantry gun (maybe an howitzer?) and many MGs and SMGs. On germans side, a heavy cuirassier, two air bombers squads, an inf batallion, pionneers, a MG company, a Flame throwers company, and some sailors! A total of 3000 men!

On the other hand, it's fair to say that the Schleswig-Holstein left its anchorage the second day! Anyway, he already fired 112 280mm shells, 425 150mm, 355 88mm and 11 000 20mm, without any exploitable result! The weather also helped the defenders for it prevented the air bombers squads to strike on the first day. The 2nd of September, they (Ju 87) dropped 50 500kg bombs. Until the 7th of September, the germans launched 12 attempts to overwhelm the garrison and only the 13th succeded! 33% of the men garrisonned were killed and most of the others wounded... .

Maybe you could tell me if Gdynia was another garrison in Dantzig or is it a different city? I also like to know what happened to the Schleswig-Holstein? I know he received a 150mm hit on the 27th of September but was it sunk? Maybe you know about it?

Gen. Maczek · Post by **Gen. Maczek** » Mon Jun 11, 2001 8:28 pm

Originally posted by Gloo:

Really interesting to read first-hand sources for mine are talking about 174 infantry men, 22 civil servants and five officers. For the armament, it says four 88mm mortars under concrete shelters, a 75mm infantry gun (maybe an howitzer?) and many MGs and SMGs. On germans side, a heavy cuirassier, two air bombers squads, an inf batallion, pionneers, a MG company, a Flame throwers company, and some sailors! A total of 3000 men! On the other hand, it's fair to say that the Schleswig-Holstein left its anchorage the second day! Anyway, he already fired 112 280mm shells, 425 150mm, 355 88mm and 11 000 20mm, without any exploitable result! The weather also helped the defenders for it prevented the air bombers squads to strike on the first day. The 2nd of September, they (Ju 87) dropped 50 500kg bombs. Until the 7th of September, the germans launched 12 attempts to overwhelm the garrison and only the 13th succeded! 33% of the men garrisonned were killed and most of the others wounded... .

Maybe you could tell me if Gdynia was another garrison in Dantzig or is it a different city? I also like to know what happened to the Schleswig-Holstein? I know he received a 150mm hit on the 27th of September but was it sunk? Maybe you know about it?

Yes your numbers of Polish defenders are roughly correct, most sources say between 140-180 some including the workers based there, others not...Four 88mm mortars? Im not sure about this, and they were certainly not in concrete shelters. The only concrete 'shelter' was the transit building itself and a few surounding buildings, the rest of the 'bunkers' were nothing more than crude earth and wood reinforced structures. The single 75mm gun (there were also two 37mm AT guns) was unfortunately destroyed on the first day of fighting...The only significant 'victory' achieved by the Germans that day. Your listing of German strength is very accurate appart from missing scratch German units created in Danzig on the very eve of the invasion, which brought the total attacking strength up to about 3,700 men.
The fires caused by the previous days bombardment created such smoke that the Luftwaffe strike on the following day was largely ineffective, both in causing casualties and in reducing the morale of the defenders. There was NO successful German assault. On the 7th day of fighting, with casualties reaching over 50% levels, ammunition down to a few rounds each and with no hope of relief, Major Sucharski decided that the men under his command had done their duty...He thanked the soldiers for their courage and dedication and despite voiced protests from the ranks to keep fighting, ordered the surrender of the garrison on the evening of the 7th of September.
Polish casualties were 15 killed and 50 wounded although almost every soldier had a wound of some sort. German casualties were 400 dead, almost double that number wounded, and the loss of a handful of armoured vehicles and field guns.
Gdynia was a seperate city altogether (North of Gdansk or 'Danzig')and fell on the 14th of September.

Yes, the Holstein was hit by accurate fire from guns located on the Hel peninsula, however it was only damaged and went on to serve the Kreigsmarine for a few more years. Hel fought on until the 2nd of October.
Hope this helps

Regards
Gen. Maczek

[ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: Gen. Maczek ]

Gen. Maczek · Post by **Gen. Maczek** » Mon Jun 11, 2001 8:49 pm

Sorry, double post. :rolleyes:

[ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: Gen. Maczek ]

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:01 pm

Originally posted by Gloo:

Well, maybe because he was ALSO a nazi... ?

Or just as bad he believe his own propaganda.

Gloo · Post by **Gloo** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 12:00 am

Originally posted by Gen. Maczek:
...Four 88mm mortars? Im not sure about this, and they were certainly not in concrete shelters...
...Polish casualties were 15 killed and 50 wounded...

Thanks for those details (didn't know about the Hel peninsula). Regarding the mortars, I checked and the author is clear about that (and maybe wrong

), he says they where deployed in what he calls "concrete shelters". Really don't know much about that but it could be concrete buildings of any kind as far as I understand it. The only thing that surprises me is the number of deads! It's really far from what is reported on the source I read. According to that book, it should be around 50/55. Anyway, it clearly shows that despite an entire week of hard fights, the casualties were limited far below what we are used to see in most of the wargames. It shows the huge difference between fightings opposing entrenched units and others occuring in open ground. Men are clearly harder to kill than vehicles are! Maybe we should decrease the vunerability of inf troops in WaW?

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:13 am

Reduce it more? All the complaints are that artity kills too little!

Most of the reason for excesive casualties is becasue players tend to be more risky with there cyber men's lives than in real life

But one ios free to adjustthe prefence seting to make infantry next to invincible if you want! Turn Arty vs soft to 30 and inf toughness to 250 and you will see little killing.

Gen. Maczek · Post by **Gen. Maczek** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 3:02 am

Originally posted by Gloo:

Thanks for those details (didn't know about the Hel peninsula). Regarding the mortars, I checked and the author is clear about that (and maybe wrong ), he says they where deployed in what he calls "concrete shelters". Really don't know much about that but it could be concrete buildings of any kind as far as I understand it. The only thing that surprises me is the number of deads! It's really far from what is reported on the source I read. According to that book, it should be around 50/55. Anyway, it clearly shows that despite an entire week of hard fights, the casualties were limited far below what we are used to see in most of the wargames. It shows the huge difference between fightings opposing entrenched units and others occuring in open ground. Men are clearly harder to kill than vehicles are! Maybe we should decrease the vunerability of inf troops in WaW?

I stand corrected

There were 4 mortars, and according to what I have just been told, they were placed into 'reinforced' foxholes within the inner perimiter, although certainly not concrete bunkers.
As for the low Polish casualty rates (KIA), yes they are miraculously low. However my grandfather has said that by the 7th day there was almost no one who was left completely unwounded. It was obvious a surrender would be the only way to save the lives of those more seriously wounded, as no real medical facilities existed at the transit camp garrison, and no hope of relief existed.
As for the German casualties they were certainly not low in representation to the sort of positions they were assaulting...400 dead and twice that number wounded for a postion that was expected to be taken within 2 hours of the invasion was a high price to pay. It became known amongst the German soldiers who fought to take it as a mini "Polish Verdun".
Regards.
Gen Maczek

--------------------------------------

"Wszyscy kapituluja we wrzesniu, my wytrzymamy do pazdziernika!"

[ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: Gen. Maczek ]

K G von Martinez · Post by **K G von Martinez** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:53 am

Two additional informations:
Gdynia was a former fishing village which Poland transformed at huge costs into a harbour for high sea traffic to become more independent of Danzig/Gdansk, then a "Free Town" but inhabitated almost exclusively by people of German origin. In WWII it was used by the Germans under the name Gotenhafen.
The "Schleswig-Holstein" was a pre-dreaghtnought completed 1908, one of the 6 bigger men of war Germany was allowed to have in the Versailles treaty. Since 1936 it was relegated to the training of midshipmen. It was sunk by a British airraid at Gotenhafen 18.12.1944 and finally scuttled there 21.3.1945 tu prevent capture.

Gloo · Post by **Gloo** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:12 pm

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
Reduce it more? All the complaints are that artity kills too little!...

...and that's correct! But I played a game last night and my panzers killed 390 men as easily as I wrote these words... . Once the arty has suppressed the infs squads, it's a simple formality to kill em.

Gloo · Post by **Gloo** » Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:19 pm

Originally posted by kgvm:
Two additional informations...

I thank you for those details.