Rampant pro policy thread

[dinsdale]

$60, that's fine for me, I already have KP and I'll buy BiN when I look like getting some time to play it. But what exactly is this new sales and price scheme going to do to the hobby?

Does Matrix intend to do what HPS does? Sell minute quantities to anyone lucky enough to find the site and trusting enough to buy the product at that price? Seems to me that the hobby is relying on the same customers who are still alive and buying from 10 years ago. Are we watching the repeat of buggy whip manufacturing?

How exactly does the market grow with this sales technique?

KP was a nice shiny box on the New Releases shelf, BiN is tucked away in some dark corner of the internet. Hope that works, despite it appearing to go against all sense.

*edit:

Just out of curiosity Les, how many of these games have you paid for and downloaded? WiTP? BiN? Being so pro-policy and all that.

[Montbrun]

You VOTE with your dollars - I want to see Matrix and their affiliates around for a very long time. Therefore, I'm willing to pay their asking price for the quality products and support that they provide. IMHO, these products are worth ALOT more than Matrix is charging, and is a great value for the money in this "niche" wargame market. I vote Matrix....

Brad

[Hexed Gamer]

"Just out of curiosity Les, how many of these games have you paid for and downloaded? WiTP? BiN? Being so pro-policy and all that."

An interesting question actually dinsdale.

I haven't yet had the pleasure of downloading BiN.
But I was not aware I was required to own something to have an opinion on it.
Perhaps having downloaded it would seem to some to quailify me to comment on it.
I don't see it that way.

It is well enough known (I think), that I have broadband access.
It is also (I think) well enough known I have the ability to burn anything I might download to cd and or dvd.
So I suppose I can't be considered one of those, that perceives being required to have broadband or access to a burner of some sort as an obstacle.

Now, I must say, I do indeed know of persons that either do not have broadband or a dvd burner. But then the reverse is self evident. Those persons know me.
And a logical thinking person can clearly then deduce, that a person could make the simple leap of logic and assume, hey, why not go to Hexed Gamer's place, borrow his broadband and download a game onto my system via his broadband connection. Then let him burn the damn thing for me.

Yes I know what you are thinking, that would give me free access to the download, nice scam.
No, not really.
He connects my broadband cable to his system. He downloads onto his computer not mine. I put my burner drive in his system, he burns to his own disc, I remove the drive, presto, I just made a non argument out of not having broadband or a burner.

What? are you guys telling me you are such wretched schmucks you have not one friend with broadband or a dvd burner drive?

Where the heck are you living exactly? Sounds like it is way to remote for my liking.

My only burden where downloading is concerned, is credit card. I don't have one. Not impossible to borrow someone's though.
Or the simple need to get that much cash, but then I am used to saving up for what I want.
I waited several months before I was able to pay for HTTR. It was worth the wait.
I am not expecting to make ANY wargaming purchases before january, regardless of how cool the game. Might find it under the tree as a note to me from wife saying "go download such and such game later". It wouldn't be the first time a gift was a note with permission granted hehe.

Now outside of downloads, I get games through a variety of methods.
I got Eric Young Squad Assault from David Heath personally for doing him a favour.
I got the Steel Panthers Team Edition as a result of being part of the team.
I got Close Combat 2 as a gift from a friend online.
Recently got Uncommon Valour in a trade with a friend online.

I get a lot of things online from guys simply being damned generous actually.
The most amazing will likely always remain the two large boxes of models from a gamer from LA. I was stunned to find those in the mail.

But I don't always "possess" physically each and every game I make comment on. I don't always consider it "vital".
I have played a great many demos. Although I don't think demos are always a perfect solution.

Some get in a snit over me commenting about games I don't have, or processess I have not yet experienced.
But it has been my experience, that some people actually get off on being pissed off. Can't be avoided it seems.

I was pleased to hear that Matrix Games has a good relationship with the Warfare HQ/Armchair General forum which is defacto Armchair Genral magazine people.
I have long thought Matrix Games needed a decent wargamers voice out there in shelf land. it appears they have that.
I might even look into a subscription, even though I seem to get about the max input from being on the above mentioned forums already.

[bostonrpgmania]

quote:
***********************

David

We did it so gamers without high speed internet can still get the games mailed to them.
**********************


well, for me, box also counts
I am not just viewing the box as a storage device but as a part of game design
That is why I am intended to buy the box for KP:AtD when it would be available from the Matrixgames.
Cover art of the box seen from the net is hard to resist not to buy
It is like collecting LP and enjoy its covers as well
Well Maybe it sound weird to some but for me, I have several (good) games that I bought in jewel cases (games that I missed in the original release) version but also purchased boxed version if I luckily found them at the store later.

[bostonrpgmania]

ORIGINAL: David Heath

ORIGINAL: bostonrpgmania

well
If not anybody wants the box, why matrix games sells boxes?
There are demands and there will be supply
as simples as that

We did it so gamers without high speed internet can still get the games mailed to them.

David

well, for me, box also counts
I am not just viewing the box as a storage device but as a part of game design
That is why I am intended to buy the box for KP:AtD when it would be available from the Matrixgames.
Cover art of the box seen from the net is hard to resist to buy
It is like collecting LP and enjoy its covers as well
Well Maybe it sound weird to some but for me, I have several (good) games that I bought in jewel cases (games that I missed in the original release) version but also purchased boxed version if I luckily found them at the store later.

[Fred98]

Hexed Gamer is actually Les! You write just like Les so you must be !

Welcome back!

[Hexed Gamer]

I thought the sig was a bit blatant actually Joe

Just decided to add it the other day actually.

Yep there is no one that writes like me

[bostonrpgmania]

I have read many articles by Les-sarge in this forum
Welcome back, too

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
I haven't yet had the pleasure of downloading BiN.
But I was not aware I was required to own something to have an opinion on it.
Perhaps having downloaded it would seem to some to quailify me to comment on it.
I don't see it that way.

You can have an opinion on anything you like. I would have thought with your verbal gung ho support though that you'd be an example to everyone and cough up the $140 the last two games have cost, which you fully support.

It just seems a tad hypocritical to shout "phooey" at those who have baulked at the price, when you've done the same. :shrug:

I am not expecting to make ANY wargaming purchases before january, regardless of how cool the game. Might find it under the tree as a note to me from wife saying "go download such and such game later". It wouldn't be the first time a gift was a note with permission granted hehe.

Can't fault that

Some get in a snit over me commenting about games I don't have, or processess I have not yet experienced.
But it has been my experience, that some people actually get off on being pissed off. Can't be avoided it seems.

Thats right, though generally when commenting about a game, or game play, having experience of playing it would be the pre-requisite for comment, but who am I to say. Maybe I'll comment on Doom3 or other games I'll never play.

I'm more worried at the guaranteed shrinkage that online only sales will cause, as well as people who might not have all the tools to download those games. It's a shame, I'm sure Matrix is doing it out of necessity, but that doesn't change the danger signs this flies about the hobby.

[EricGuitarJames]

ORIGINAL: Golf33

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Thankyou Erik for that reply, however, I use Firefox as my default browser (for security reasons as much as any) so I wouldn't see any pop-ups (which are frankly a pain in the **** anyway). It also makes using 'quotes' rather difficult so apologies if this reads less easily than it could.

I use FireFox as well. When a site attempts to pop up a new window, you will see an "(i)" icon like this in the bottom left of the browser window:

Double-click on the "(i)" icon and a dialog will pop up showing you the site that is attempting to open a pop-up window and you can select "Unblock" to allow the site to do that. It's also possible (and quite easy) to set the block/unblock for specific sites through the Tools > Options > Web Features menu.

Regards
33

Whilst that's 'do-able', it's only in retrospect that you know that a 'pop-up' contains useful information (i.e. the 'Matrix' one). With all due respect to Erik, with pop-up blockers becoming ever more common-place (Both MSN and Yahoo now feature them in their toolbars)for him to say "We also added an actual VAT Pop-Up window so that ..... you CANNOT miss the fact that VAT is not included in the prices." is slightly disengenous. It should be CLEARLY stated on the opening page.

I suppose I should be clear here, I have no intention of purchasing any of the games Matrix has on sale at present, not because of the pricing or the VAT issue but simply because they are not of any particular interest to me.[:)]

[Hertston]

<----- Yahoo pop-up blocker user.

This is just getting silly. Anyone who chooses to unblock would do so because they knew what was there before they started - everybody else would just assume it was spam, the blocking of which is the whole point of a pop-up blocker.

If it can't be done as Eric and I have suggested, it can't be done. So be it... (shrugs shoulders [&:] ).

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Golf33

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Thankyou Erik for that reply, however, I use Firefox as my default browser (for security reasons as much as any) so I wouldn't see any pop-ups (which are frankly a pain in the **** anyway). It also makes using 'quotes' rather difficult so apologies if this reads less easily than it could.

I use FireFox as well. When a site attempts to pop up a new window, you will see an "(i)" icon like this in the bottom left of the browser window:

Double-click on the "(i)" icon and a dialog will pop up showing you the site that is attempting to open a pop-up window and you can select "Unblock" to allow the site to do that. It's also possible (and quite easy) to set the block/unblock for specific sites through the Tools > Options > Web Features menu.

Regards
33

Exactly, know your tools [;)]

Bullshit add popups are a PIA of course, but there´s also good and valid use of them. After all pop ups are still a legal webdesign feature [;)]


It´s the same with email SPAM filters. If you use them make sure you know how they work and how you can add trusted sources, otherwise you might miss some important email one day. And that´s definetly not the problem of the sender then.

Unfortunatly all this little "helpers" are not so smart to allways tell who´s good and who´s bad.

[Hexed Gamer]

dinsdale, I have said it before, I will obviously need to say it again.

Sometimes my opinion is sourced by a multitude of sources that DO have the game, HAVE played the game, and if I elect to support a view point of people I know to trust, then my not having had the game, is not relevant in all cases.

It's not like driving where you can't drive without a license hehe, everyone is allowed to have an opinion or through one support another's opinion.

Gamers and reviewers put out opinions all the time after having payed and or played. It doesn't bother me to pass along the sentiments.

You speak of "danger signs". That's too opinion. Danger signs that is

My idea of a "danger sign" is everyone insisting a game has to be in stunning richly detailed real time 3d to be any good, because it is required to attract joe blow gamer who is often to dim to be capable of enjoying an old style game that is "too boring".
First off, I don't care if that just insulted joe average gamer.
Second, that just fuels the myth joe average gamer is ever going to want to become joe average wargamer.

All real time 3d has given us, is a great wealth of copy cat crud in most cases. I read the reviews eh, most real time 3d games being produced or that have been produced, feature stunning graphics and lame game play.

Korsun Pocket no real time 3d.
Highway to the Reich, no real time 3d.
Strategic Command, no real time 3d.
Uncommon Valour, no real time 3d.
War in the Pacific, no real time 3d.
Battles in Normandy, no real time 3d.
Steel Panthers, no real time 3d.
The Operational Art of War, no real time 3d
Campaign series, no real time 3d.
Panzer Campaigns, no real time 3d.
Squad battles, no real time 3d.
Civilization series, no real time 3d.
Heroes of Might and Magic series, no real tme 3d.
Close Combat has gone 3d, and a lot think it is a bad idea.
Panzer General series, the moment it went into quasi 3d they say it ruined it.

Those are all acknowledged great games that I know of (I have excluded some, because contrary to popular belief, I don't actually know everything ).

I can't think of a single game using real time and 3d, that anyone has been willing to state was a "great wargame".
Combat Mission uses 3d, but they gave it WEGO system, and I think that makes a substantial difference.
Highway to the Reich uses real time, but isn't 3d, and that makes a difference.

The only danger I see for computer wargaming, is game makers waste to much time and effort pandering to people that never wanted to be wargamers in the first place, and not enough energy delivering a great wargame in the first place.

There is a reason why people still pay top dollar for ASL on eBay when they can't buy if from MMP fast enough. It's because it is a real wargame, and has remained as such regardless of the trend in compuer wargames to imply you need to dummy down a product to make it sell.

The hobby will remain so long as it turns out games the real wargamers can respect. It will die only when it loses that respect.
And there will NEVER be a day when you can't see the jocks for the crowds of wargamers milling about.

It will never be "cool" to be a historian, as much as it is "cool" to be a quarterback. Thus, I don't expect in 10 years or 20 years, to see a massive influx of wargamers, regardless of how "cute" a wargame designer makes his product.

The inclination to study the past will remain the same among our population.

What our hobby needs is just something "fresh".
How about someone re creating the popularity of Up Front, but not necessarily that specific game, and matching it with the power to play it competitively online like a good game of poker.

[freeboy]

Close Combat has gone 3d, and a lot think it is a bad idea

Really?
CM may have been the best breakthrough wargame into a realtime arena, total war uses a modified rt but I love the wego system for cm.
3d in board strategy board games is somewhat dead end, what would the point be? but in the cm system I love being up high giving orders, and then watching from the grunts point of view... granted it is dated now at what 6years of age?

[Hexed Gamer]

When a game is old AND still popular. that is a clear sign it was a good idea.

I have lost count of how many "neat" games were not really neat enough.

[freeboy]

right, many times I have gone back and palyed some old cid Myer,sp?, game, colonization etc. Now its Go BIN and WITP do to the ease of pbem

[EricGuitarJames]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

<----- Yahoo pop-up blocker user.

This is just getting silly. Anyone who chooses to unblock would do so because they knew what was there before they started - everybody else would just assume it was spam, the blocking of which is the whole point of a pop-up blocker.

If it can't be done as Eric and I have suggested, it can't be done. So be it... (shrugs shoulders [&:] ).

I fear Matrix could fall foul of Trading Standards legislation in the UK - something I have NO desire to see happen. I'll pm the powers that be so that they are aware.

[riverbravo]

Hi Les!!!

[EricGuitarJames]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

All real time 3d has given us, is a great wealth of copy cat crud in most cases. I read the reviews eh, most real time 3d games being produced or that have been produced, feature stunning graphics and lame game play.

.............................

I can't think of a single game using real time and 3d, that anyone has been willing to state was a "great wargame".

There are plenty of 2d games that have come out over the years that feature 'lame gameplay' too. Additionally one should consider how long 2d computer wargames have been in production as against 3d 'real-time' (or 'continuous-pausible-time' if you like). Given the luddite tendencies of sections of the wargame market it's not surprising that developers are yet to fully embrace 3d technology. That said, 'Rome: Total War' seems as promising a candidate as any for the epithet 'great wargame' but time will tell [;)]. So let's wait shall we[:)]

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

dinsdale, I have said it before, I will obviously need to say it again.

Sometimes my opinion is sourced by a multitude of sources that DO have the game, HAVE played the game, and if I elect to support a view point of people I know to trust, then my not having had the game, is not relevant in all cases.

What exactly has anyone else's experience go to do with being so delighted at expensive games with no manuals? That's what this thread was about after all, how exceptionally wonderful it is and how that huge, 4 post, thread at Wargamer was unnecessarily knocking matrix.

Now if I started a thread on how great it was that gasoline prices were beneficial, I'd at least not do it until I bought some.

My idea of a "danger sign" is everyone insisting a game has to be in stunning richly detailed real time 3d to be any good, because it is required to attract joe blow gamer who is often to dim to be capable of enjoying an old style game that is "too boring".
First off, I don't care if that just insulted joe average gamer.
Second, that just fuels the myth joe average gamer is ever going to want to become joe average wargamer.

It might make you better to feel superior about your recreational chioces, but that's all they are: choices. As it's easier to buy, see and get information on mainstream games than wargames, I'd say the hobby was in serious trouble. That's not the same as thinking someone is an imbecile for liking Doom3, or call him "Joe"

All real time 3d has given us, is a great wealth of copy cat crud in most cases. I read the reviews eh, most real time 3d games being produced or that have been produced, feature stunning graphics and lame game play.

No, 3D has pushed the envelope of PC games and made them sell comparative numbers as consoles. There are plenty games I don't like which are 3D, but I wouldn't call them crud.

Highway to the Reich, no real time 3d.

errr it's a real time game.

Strategic Command, no real time 3d.
Uncommon Valour, no real time 3d.
War in the Pacific, no real time 3d.
Battles in Normandy, no real time 3d.
Steel Panthers, no real time 3d.

3D is generally not an important feature for grand strategy, or operational strategy. You may as well say that they don't have hip-hop soundtracks, therefore the lack of hip-hop soundtracks makes them good.

I can't think of a single game using real time and 3d, that anyone has been willing to state was a "great wargame".
Combat Mission uses 3d, but they gave it WEGO system, and I think that makes a substantial difference.
Highway to the Reich uses real time, but isn't 3d, and that makes a difference.

Of course, I can use exclusionary and inclusionary criteria too. Not really worth it though.

The only danger I see for computer wargaming, is game makers waste to much time and effort pandering to people that never wanted to be wargamers in the first place, and not enough energy delivering a great wargame in the first place.

The danger I see is that only mega-hits with watered down gameplay such as Total War are in stores. Wargames now reside in the download or mail-order abyss. Maybe you don't mind as you don't seem to buy many games anyway, but I would like as many new wargames as there are FPS, and I'd like to be able to pick them up at a store if need be, with a manual.

There is a reason why people still pay top dollar for ASL on eBay when they can't buy if from MMP fast enough. It's because it is a real wargame, and has remained as such regardless of the trend in compuer wargames to imply you need to dummy down a product to make it sell.

Right, and ASL boardgames are going to outsell say Monopoly or the latest party game is it?

It will never be "cool" to be a historian, as much as it is "cool" to be a quarterback. Thus, I don't expect in 10 years or 20 years, to see a massive influx of wargamers, regardless of how "cute" a wargame designer makes his product.

err I don't see why sports is somehow in competition with wargames. I've played competative sports since the age of 5, doesn't make me not understand wargames. Looks to me like you're inventing exclusion to promote some specialness.

There is no redeeming factor which makes BiN any more worthwhile than say RollerCoaster Tycoon or Deerhunter. It's just a personal choice. It doesn't make anyone superior, of give them any greater taste, it's just an entertainment choice.

What our hobby needs is just something "fresh".

How can it get fresh when any change is greeted with derision or suspicion?