War Plan Orange Announcement

[Dunedain]

Yeah, this is the mod I've been waiting years for (ever since we heard that WitP would be made).
No naval treaty, battleship and cruiser programs go ahead at full steam. Wimpy carriers, more or
less out of the picture. I consider it the ultimate way to play WitP. Way to go, Tankerace!

I will definitely be getting this add-on.

[KPAX]

ORIGINAL: jnier

ORIGINAL: Bodhi
While I wish you all the best with your mod, I'm a bit annoyed that Mike Wood has been spending "a significant amount of time changing parts of the code" when the all major bugs haven't been fixed. IMHO, this should only be done after the bugs have been fixed, after all I purchased WitP not War Plan Orange.

Depends on what "significant" means. Significant could mean only a modest investment of time. OTOH, It could mean a lot of time. Let's not jump to conclusions before we have more info.

I do not see ANY major bugs when I play WITP, so I can't fathom the attitude of some people on this board. The folks at Matrix and 2 by 3 (not to mention Tankerace) could quit making wargames tommorrow and make a lot more money doing something else. They've decided not to do that and pursue their (and our) passion. So how about we give them the benefit of the doubt, at least until we have some real information? Then you can complain all you want.

Jnirt, Agree 100% with you !!

Halo, which sold a gazillion copies in the first day, and made tons of money, has bugs.

I see NO game breaker bugs in this game.

1. Zero CV bug ? Nah, think about it, know what is there and compenstate for it.

2. Leadership bug. Shoot ships go down with the commanders all the time. Can not save them all. Part of war.

If you are playing PBEMs anything can be House Ruled and handle things. Just part of life.

[Bombur]

-I will buy an WiTP expansion endorsed by Matrix/2by3. However, once it will be sold, I would like to see a larger expansion, including early/mid 30´s scenarios too. I think it would be easy to accomplish. Just to add a few planes and a few ship classes. The editor could also be reworked to allow pre 1941 scenarios?

[MengCiao]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Hi guys. I have an anouncement.

War Plan Orange has evolved far beyond the small WWI style scenario that I had started back in August. It has come to consume almost my entire private life, plus a hefty amount of work over at 2by3 and Matrix Games.

To fully get the effect of a 1920's naval war, a good number of changes needed to be done to the standard War in the Pacific game. Mike Wood has graciously helped out, and is spending a significant amount of time changing parts of the code for this mod. These aren't small tweaks either.

As to my own part, I have poured enormous amounts of time into this, in scenario design, research, graphic editing, testing, and so on.

Throughout War Plan Orange's development, I have been in close contact with Matrix and 2by3, getting help, support, ideas, and more from them. They too have had hand in this project.

Throughout the development, the possibility was broached that this would be sold, for a small fee, as an official expansion. I am in favor of this, for several reasons. Number one, this gurantees several scenarios. As opposed to a single, long scenario, at the moment of release WPO will include a good number of scenarios. In addition with continued support, I can devote time after the release to do more scenarios, and provide continued support.

You guys need to understand, that this is not a simple “scenario modification.” This is not one or two graphic changes, or a few modifications. This is an entirely new database, new scenarios, new graphics, and thanks to the guys at Matrix, new code.

War Plan Orange stands on the verge of being a great expansion to an already great game. I have spent a lot of time, effort, money, and sweat into making it. I am sure that the end result will be something that everyone will be pleased with.

I'll pay. This sounds great. As long as it is less than 150 Euros.

[mikemike]

Congratulations and kudos, Tankerace. I´m fooling around with a private scenario myself and I´ve seen how the database editor is just comfortable enough to trap you into rather more effort than you counted on (Change the armament on the basic Fletcher DD´s? Why, sure, my good fellow! Just don´t forget you have to update every single Fletcher in the Ships database manually afterwards). I can only imagine what amount of work such a radical overhaul of the databases entails. Count me in for a copy if Matrixgames sells this online like the basic game.

Now, I´ve some comments:

WPO, as well as some of the user-defined scenarios now being published, needs graphics files that are altered from the basic game. Wouldn´t it be nice to be able to assign a dedicated graphics directory to a scenario in the Scenario Editor so the game engine automatically loads the correct graphics when you select that scenario? (There doesn´t seem to be an official Wish List where I could post this idea).

Second comment: Somewhere I read that WPO contains all four planned Hoods for the RN, and for budgetary reasons none of the advanced ships under order at the time of the Washington Conference. I think you did this for play balance. This would never have happened in RL. After digesting the Jutland lessons, the RN realized how much the original design was dead on birth, in fact the Director of Naval Construction lobbied hard to have Hood scrapped on the stocks "to make way for something useful". The design was heavily modified to increase its protection, and just Hood was actually laid down, a case of wartime expediency, the other ships were suspended and then cancelled when it was clear that the German 15-inch battlecruisers they were intended to counter wouldn´t be built. The RN put all its effort behind the G3 battlecruiser design which had the kind of protection they felt to be necessary in future. If you remember that Hood cost 6,25 million pounds to build, you can be very certain that the RN would have preferred building two G3´s instead of three Hoods, whatever the budgetary restraints. I think you should change the OOB of WPO accordingly.

[Don Bowen]

WPO, as well as some of the user-defined scenarios now being published, needs graphics files that are altered from the basic game. Wouldn´t it be nice to be able to assign a dedicated graphics directory to a scenario in the Scenario Editor so the game engine automatically loads the correct graphics when you select that scenario? (There doesn´t seem to be an official Wish List where I could post this idea).

What an excellent idea!

[Onime No Kyo]

Count me in Tanker. If my insignificant $ amount will make this worthwhile for you and Matrix/2x3, by all means. Maybe that same $ amount will also mobilize you guys (and maybe a few other computer savvy folks) to create other expansions like the Russo-Japanese War or (perish the thought) Jutland.

PS....not to diminish your contribution in any way Tanker, but if Matrix is going to put their logo on this you guys just have to do something about those A/C graphics of yours. [;)]

[Jmsimer]

Tanker - maybe you could whip up a quick poll to post on the forum, like the earlier one about how to "fix" night bombing. Although it would not be scientific, you could at least get a sense of how many people will pay for the Warplan Orange mod and what they would be willing to pay.

I would be willing to pay, but not as much as I did for WiTP - maybe about $25.

[Tankerace]

Let me try and answer all these questions (Boy, I got swamped).

I'll pay. This sounds great. As long as it is less than 150 Euros.

If that is around $80 USD, then it will be MUCH less than 150 Euros.

WPO, as well as some of the user-defined scenarios now being published, needs graphics files that are altered from the basic game. Wouldn´t it be nice to be able to assign a dedicated graphics directory to a scenario in the Scenario Editor so the game engine automatically loads the correct graphics when you select that scenario? (There doesn´t seem to be an official Wish List where I could post this idea).

On that, I have no control of. However, War Plan Orange's ship graphics fit in with War in the Pacific's, and will not affect the main game in any way.

Second comment: Somewhere I read that WPO contains all four planned Hoods for the RN, and for budgetary reasons none of the advanced ships under order at the time of the Washington Conference. I think you did this for play balance. This would never have happened in RL. After digesting the Jutland lessons, the RN realized how much the original design was dead on birth, in fact the Director of Naval Construction lobbied hard to have Hood scrapped on the stocks "to make way for something useful". The design was heavily modified to increase its protection, and just Hood was actually laid down, a case of wartime expediency, the other ships were suspended and then cancelled when it was clear that the German 15-inch battlecruisers they were intended to counter wouldn´t be built. The RN put all its effort behind the G3 battlecruiser design which had the kind of protection they felt to be necessary in future. If you remember that Hood cost 6,25 million pounds to build, you can be very certain that the RN would have preferred building two G3´s instead of three Hoods, whatever the budgetary restraints. I think you should change the OOB of WPO accordingly.

I did this for two reasons, and it was an early design decision. The main one is the RN will not figure too heavily into WPO. In the later stages of the campaign you will see them, but not a whole lot. The other reason, is when I began War Plan Orange, while I was going to ignore the Washington Treaty, I also wanted to have a firm foot in fact, or possibility. The three Hoods could have been laid down, however plans for the G3 design were never finalized, nor even ordered. This means that the three Hoods stood a better chance at being completed than the unamed G3s. In all probability (using the Nelsons as a guide), the G3s would have been laid down around February of 1923, and completed around early-mid 1928. After working up, they could possibly be slated for use sometime in late 1929 in the Pacific. If the world had not agreed to the Treaty of 1922, as is assumed by the mod, considering that they were almost bankrupt (which is why they hastily agreed to accept parity with the United States), IF they were going to get more ships, it would have been cheaper and quicker to resume construction of the three Hoods, and ignore the G3s. The three Hoods could have been had by 1926, around the time the Tosas, Amagis, South Dakotas, and Lexingtons were completed. The G3s would have to be delayed to around 1928-29. I believe the G3s were estimated to cost around 8.9 million pounds, so from an economic the British could have built 2 and 3/4 more Hoods than the cost of the G3s. I personal am of the opinion the G3s would never have been completed, Washington Treaty or not.

As of right now, this was a design decision made early on, and will not be changed. However, if there is an overwhelming desire to have them in, I will add them. But, you must consider this. I am going to give the player, through the first campaign, 2 Hoods, and in the second, 3. IF the G3s are to be added (and the 3 Hoods removed), then the player will receive 1 Hood in the first, and 1 Hood and 1 G3 (the latter LATE in the second campaign).

PS....not to diminish your contribution in any way Tanker, but if Matrix is going to put their logo on this you guys just have to do something about those A/C graphics of yours.

You don't like my a/c graphics? I think they look pretty good, considering I'm not just pasting line drawings of books on them. As of right now, I don't think the Matrix guys are going to change them. They aren't perfect, but they get the job done.

Tanker - maybe you could whip up a quick poll to post on the forum, like the earlier one about how to "fix" night bombing. Although it would not be scientific, you could at least get a sense of how many people will pay for the Warplan Orange mod and what they would be willing to pay.

I would be willing to pay, but not as much as I did for WiTP - maybe about $25.

I don't think I can post a poll, but right nnow it seems that most people are in favor of purchasing it. I can state, as to the price, that it will cost around what expansions for most games cost, maybe even a little less. It will not cost as much as a regular full game. No where near that. That I can say with certainty.

[nico71]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

If that is around $80 USD, then it will be MUCH less than 150 Euros.

That's more like 200 USD! [8|]

[Tankerace]

In that case, MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH less.... [:D]

[Tankerace]

I want to make a comment, with mikemike suggestion in mind.

Because I turned down the G3 design (for reasons stated above, and the fact that it contradicts where I wanted to take War Plan Orange), I want to make one thing clear. Just because I turned down adding in the G3 does not mean I won't listen to player suggestions. If there is something you would like to see in the mod, go ahead and post it. Minor changes may be done, but understand that the more stuff I add in, the longer War Plan Orange gets delayed. As it is, I already have added in a cropload of new stuff, and I am still trying to get that finished.

I stated this way back when, and I'll state it again.

With War Plan Orange, my aim is to recreate a hypothetical naval war of the 1920s, one in which the Washington Naval Treaty causes a war rather than ends in. While "never were" ships will be included, Only those that were laid down, or were about to be laid down will be included. As of this stage of completion for War Plan Orange, this means the Tosa and South Dakota (12 X 16" variant) class battleships, and Amagi, Lexington, and final three Admiral class Battlecruisers. This also means armoured cruisers and predreadnoughts, scrapped 1921-23, will also be included. The following ships are out, and I have no plans to add them. I had decided this on day one of the project. The ships are:

British designs L2, L3, M3, M2, N3, G3
US: South Dakota 9 18In design (1921 design)
Japan: Hiraga 1921 design, Kii class design.

These ships were never intended to be in War Plan Orange, nor will be. The reason being the ships were never laid down, and in All cases but the Japanese Kii, never ordered. I am wanting to keep War Plan Orange in the realm of possibility, and I feel that to allow all of these super designs would pervert what I am trying to do with it. From a realistic standpoint, if you consider that for the Amagis, South Dakotas, and Lexingtons won't arrive until 1926-28, and they had been ordered in 1921, with a war on in 22, and ordered in 23, it is reasonable to assume, at this point in history, that these designs I have chosen not oto include would not have been ready for battle until after the time frame of War Plan Orange.

However, should enough of the players of War Plan Orange like to have all these paper battleships floating around, I will add them in (provided that enough want them in). However, I have felt from day one that they would pervert what I am trying to do with the game. If any one has comments on this, or have stuff they would like added in (Airships are a no), then please feel free to post them.

[rhondabrwn]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I want to make a comment, with mikemike suggestion in mind.

Because I turned down the G3 design (for reasons stated above, and the fact that it contradicts where I wanted to take War Plan Orange), I want to make one thing clear. Just because I turned down adding in the G3 does not mean I won't listen to player suggestions. If there is something you would like to see in the mod, go ahead and post it. Minor changes may be done, but understand that the more stuff I add in, the longer War Plan Orange gets delayed. As it is, I already have added in a cropload of new stuff, and I am still trying to get that finished.

I stated this way back when, and I'll state it again.

With War Plan Orange, my aim is to recreate a hypothetical naval war of the 1920s, one in which the Washington Naval Treaty causes a war rather than ends in. While "never were" ships will be included, Only those that were laid down, or were about to be laid down will be included. As of this stage of completion for War Plan Orange, this means the Tosa and South Dakota (12 X 16" variant) class battleships, and Amagi, Lexington, and final three Admiral class Battlecruisers. This also means armoured cruisers and predreadnoughts, scrapped 1921-23, will also be included. The following ships are out, and I have no plans to add them. I had decided this on day one of the project. The ships are:

British designs L2, L3, M3, M2, N3, G3
US: South Dakota 9 18In design (1921 design)
Japan: Hiraga 1921 design, Kii class design.

These ships were never intended to be in War Plan Orange, nor will be. The reason being the ships were never laid down, and in All cases but the Japanese Kii, never ordered. I am wanting to keep War Plan Orange in the realm of possibility, and I feel that to allow all of these super designs would pervert what I am trying to do with it. From a realistic standpoint, if you consider that for the Amagis, South Dakotas, and Lexingtons won't arrive until 1926-28, and they had been ordered in 1921, with a war on in 22, and ordered in 23, it is reasonable to assume, at this point in history, that these designs I have chosen not oto include would not have been ready for battle until after the time frame of War Plan Orange.

However, should enough of the players of War Plan Orange like to have all these paper battleships floating around, I will add them in (provided that enough want them in). However, I have felt from day one that they would pervert what I am trying to do with the game. If any one has comments on this, or have stuff they would like added in (Airships are a no), then please feel free to post them.

You make a good case for your original design instinct. I would go with it and keep the fantasy out of it! I also vote for delivering it early rather than delaying it to accomodate everyone's personal fetishes.

BTW... I hope the pricing is going to be in the $10 to $20 range. I've been campaigning over in the Gates of Troy forum for more of that $19.95 low cost pricing strategy for downloads. That is my "buying point" for spontaneous acquisition. I agonized over WiTP for at least 8 months before finally buying. I'm going through a similar period of distress over Battles in Normandy and may not buy that one.

[Ron Saueracker]

I'll be buying the puppy. Been watching Justin's progress since Day1. More money in the coffers to keep WITP healthy and happy.

[Tankerace]

Not sure if I can say the actual price.... but I can assure that it will be fairly cheap as games go. Nowhere near as much as War in the Pacific.

I'll try (but I won't promise) to put up some battle screenshots in the next day or so, I just finished tweaking all the Japanese dreadnoughts, Kongo refit, predreadnoughts, and cruiser graphics. I have all of their tin can graphics done, except the Sakura and Kabas.

[showboat1]

After reading this I suddenly feel dizzy and lightheaded with anticipation.

[mlees]

Dunno if this is OT or if it has been addressed, but in another thread, many players are saying that land combat in China is too easy for Japan, and gives the Japanese player too many VP's...
Do you deactivate the Chinese and Russian theatres to concentrate the player's attentions on the naval war?

[crsutton]

No sweat, I got a little change in my pocket.

Besides, nobody works for free. Or do they.....................?[;)]

[Tankerace]

ORIGINAL: mlees

Dunno if this is OT or if it has been addressed, but in another thread, many players are saying that land combat in China is too easy for Japan, and gives the Japanese player too many VP's...
Do you deactivate the Chinese and Russian theatres to concentrate the player's attentions on the naval war?

The Chinese theater is still going to be active (not sure on the RUssians yet), but all of China is under Chinese control. If Japan wants to invade it, they may, but considering the relatively small size of armies, it would be better (in terms of naval strategy and VPs) to focus more on the PI and DEI.

Since production is off for this scenario, VPs are going to be why you want to take bases. Thus, Chinese bases will be worth less than DEI and PI bases (which would need to be taken for resources). Thus, if the Japanese player commits himself soley to a Chinese war, it is probable that he will loose the scenario. If he commits himself to a 2 progned offensive, then it can go really either way.

On a side note, I Just completed a large 1 day head to head battle, involving all of Japan's dreadnoughts except the Kagas, the four Kongos, and all Predreadnoughts, Armoured cruisers, and protected cruisers (not counting the Tenryu, Nagara, Kuma, and Sendai light cruisers) versus a force of 12 American Dreadnoughts, 10 Predreadnoughts, all armoured cruisers, and all protected cruisers sans the Gunboat types, 30 DDs participated on each side.

The results: The Japanese dreadnoughts, on a one for one basis, outperformed the US dreadnoughts, but their numerical superiority evened the odds. Japan's predreadnoughts (ranging from semi-dreadnoughts to foreign built coast defense ships) were totally outclassed by US predreadnoughts, while the US ships held their own against the Japanese dreadnoughts.

In the cruiser category, US Armoured cruisers held off damage from their Japanese counterparts, while the US protected cruisers showed their gunboat heritage. In the destroyer tests, the US 4 stackers are roughly equivelant to the Japanese counterparts, although the Japanese 4.7" tend to outrange the US 4". In a DD attack led by the cruiser Olympia on the Japanese battle line.....4 US destroyers were sunk for light damage inflicted.

On the downside, the leader bug ravaged the tests, replacing 4 leaders. I can run better tests once 1.4 comes out, assuming it does trully fix the bug.

[tabpub]

ORIGINAL: Dunedain

Tankerace: I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that it's up to you to put this in the mod,
you're designing the mod itself (and doing a great job ), I'm just saying that I don't think it's
asking that much for Matrix to put this very useful feature in, seeing as how it's an official add-on
that we'll be paying for and all. And this has to be the single most wanted feature in WitP,
anyhow. So this is the perfect time to do it.

I understand what you're saying about intercepts, but I'm not talking about some pre-planned
precision timed intercept that would be hard to execute. I'm talking about two surface combat TF's
traveling along near some islands or on their way to some other islands and both TF's have orders
to intercept and destroy any enemy surface combat TF's they come across. So when the TF's enter
the same hex as they are traveling, assuming they spot one another (this, of course, would have
modifiers for weather, if it's night time, the skill of the crews (lookouts, etc.), plus a random modifier
that determines exactly how close the two TF's are to one another within the hex in the first place, etc.),
they can turn and engage each other. Or if one TF is slower than the other and doesn't want to fight,
then perhaps the faster TF can pursue and bring them to battle.

This is the sort of "intercept" I'm speaking of, and it would be entirely possible for surface combat TF's
of this time to fight each other when encountering the enemy while traveling through ocean hexes
in the manner described above.

Yes, and if they are both "cruising" they are doing one hex per phase, so, it would be highly likely that if their paths intersect, that a battle would result.