Beyond Squad Leader for the PC

[IainMcNeil]

Yea thanks, I have a few of them. I'm interested in finding who owns SSI & its IP though, to see if we might be able to make use of any of their old IP

[RBWhite]

What would you consider Microprose's Across The Rhine to be RTS, Turn Based or both?

Also, do you think at it's time it was considered War Gaming?

It came out at the time Microprose was imploding & being taken over by Spectrum/Holobyte.

I thought this *might* fit into the thread. It seems similar to Beyond Squad Leader for the PC. The limit is Battalion size.

Does anyone else own it, and what are your thoughts?

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: RBWhite

What would you consider Microprose's Across The Rhine to be RTS, Turn Based or both?

Also, do you think at it's time it was considered War Gaming?

It came out at the time Microprose was imploding & being taken over by Spectrum/Holobyte.

I thought this *might* fit into the thread. It seems similar to Beyond Squad Leader for the PC. The limit is Battalion size.

Does anyone else own it, and what are your thoughts?

I have it, still boxed and so. But memory is faded, I only know that I liked it to a degree.

[RBWhite]

I agree it really wasn't that good, Microprose/Holobyte hyped it way too much and almost didn't release it. After I bought it I found out why.

Still play it now and again.

Voice over and sound effect got on your nerves after awhile.

My opinon is it was the WWII version of M1A1 Tank Platoon & a paliminary test for M1A1 Tank Platoon II.

[Fred98]

There are really 3 styles of games.

RTS
Continuous time
Turn based


I dislike RTS intensely.


HTTR and Close Combat are both continuous time. They both have 4 speeds: Slow, Medium, Fast and Pause. Both are great wargames. I am baffled when anybody puts them in the category of RTS or “clickfest”. I love Close Combat and I like HTTR.


I like Turn Based.

-

Ultimately, I see the power of computers enhancing wargaming. I have an example.


Somebody said:

All "WE" .....is a board game to computer conversion of Squad Leader. No fancy smancy graphics, just good ole hex based, card board pieces and detailed maps.

In other words, he does not want computers to enhance wargaming. Oh, hang on, he did say “random map feature” so maybe he does after all.

Two things he did not say but implied:
- use the computer to save an incomplete game
- use the computer to play a PBEM game

And I am sure that other players could add a list of 100 items to use the computer to enhance wargaming.


I would like to add to the list. I played Ambush! and Patrol!. I did not play Advanced Squad Leader but I’ll bet they have much in common.


Presume there is one squad leader on the map and 7 men under his command. Presume I want each man to fire their weapon. And the following is a typical turn.

Count the hexes from the soldier to the leader. If outside the command radius do a “morale check” and bowl the dice.

Do this another 6 times.

( In a computer game this action can be automated at the start of a turn. In an exact duplicate of Advanced Squad Leader it cannot.)


First man:
Do a check for “weapon broken” and bowl dice

Review charts and check his “attack value”

Review charts for the defender and check his “defence vale”

Review more charts and bowl dice

Apply result.


Second man:
Repeat above procedure


Third man:
Etc etc etc


This is all very tedious. 5 actions x 8 men = 40 tedious actions


In a computer game I have a dream that you right click on a soldier, and from a shortcut menu, choose the order “shoot at that hex”. 8 men = 8 clicks of the mouse. Everything else is automated.-

[RBWhite]

There was a game out about 4 or 5 years. I bought it for my son, I was called Army Men. It had the animated old style green American plastic infantry figures. You controlled every movement of each figure by mouse, point and click.

Do I come close to what you consider RTS "clickfest".

If not give me a reference point to go by.

[Fred98]

I am not familair with it. If it is a child's game then why add it to the discussion?

Please addres my issues with the command radius and the sequence involved in firing weapons.

As for command radius - a simple solution. Click on the leader and his command radius is highlighted. Simple. Would that be acceptable to you?

[RBWhite]

5 years ago my son was 22.

It was far from a childs game it just used the figures. It required thought.

My son is a World History Teacher, and has done many research papers on armed conflict, starting with the American Civil War to the present.

Just wanted to know what you thought an RTS "clickfest" game was.

I think I know now.

Take Care

[Danny Boy]

Er... just to dip my toe in this sea of controversy...

Blitzkrieg (2004) and add ons
Sudden Strike (2001?) and add ons
Command & Conquer..and a million add ons

all perfect examples of clicky rts crap...however... Close Combat was excellent..if only they had been able to put together a decent scenario editor!

A great series of IGOUGO computer games was the X-Com series. This was effectively squad based combat and could (I believe) in X-Com Apocalypse be played as either IGOUGO or RTS

Cheers!

[RBWhite]

Thanks Danny Boy

Didn't like any of them myself.

I never played Close Combat, I was always leary about Microsoft Games of that time.

X-COM: UFO DEFENSE, I still play it. I got an updated version from PC Gamer on one of their monthly CD's. Back in 2000.

Thanks again

Rick White

[Fred98]

A board game
Presume there is one squad leader on the map and 7 men under his command.

The following is the start of a typical turn.

Count the hexes from the first soldier to the leader. If outside the command radius do a “morale check” and bowl the dice.

Do this 6 more times because each man needs to be checked.



A computer version of the same game
Click on the leader and this highlights his command radius. You can seee which soldiers are inside and outside the radius.

Right click and from the pop up menu choose “do morale check”

The computer does it for all 7 men in one go.


Computers ought to be used to enhance wargaming. Who agrees or disagrees?
-

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: Danny Boy


A great series of IGOUGO computer games was the X-Com series. This was effectively squad based combat and could (I believe) in X-Com Apocalypse be played as either IGOUGO or RTS

Cheers!

Wasn't Warhammer 40,000:Chaos Gate also based on the X-Com Engine? Chaos Gate was one of the more fun Sci-Fi Turn-Based Games of the time.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

A board game
Presume there is one squad leader on the map and 7 men under his command.

The following is the start of a typical turn.

Count the hexes from the first soldier to the leader. If outside the command radius do a “morale check” and bowl the dice.

Do this 6 more times because each man needs to be checked.



A computer version of the same game
Click on the leader and this highlights his command radius. You can seee which soldiers are inside and outside the radius.

Right click and from the pop up menu choose “do morale check”

The computer does it for all 7 men in one go.


Computers ought to be used to enhance wargaming. Who agrees or disagrees?
-

Yours is an excellent example of how computers overcome one of the major obstacles to board wargaming.... How to make even more complex games but at the same time make them intuitive and easy to play.

Through the years, players have always demanded more complex wargames. But board wargames have really reached their limit. And while some DO enjoy the exactness of knowing and calculating every modifier themselves, examples such as yours show there are many more examples of where its a hard argument that anyone would prefer spending time (and having to learn all the rules for) the example you gave vs. having a more enriching element added to the game instead since the computer can handle the other aspect for them, quicker and cleaner.