new house rules

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K62_
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RE: new house rules

Post by K62_ »

ORIGINAL: kingtiger_501
Also, people, there's more to this game than the '41 campaign. I personally dislike all the special shattering and supply rules in it. '43 is a great starting point, with a draw considered as Nazi victory. The '42 campaign is pretty good, but it needs a truce on the first turn so the Soviet doesn't get half his army out of supply, and a rule against Germany producing all Tigers. And even '44 is quite satisfying to play - the Nazis lose big time but they can still pull a few cool maneuvers. There's also an amazing '44 scenario on Dave's Corner that's made both more historical and more playable; I never PBEMd it before but I'd love to.



I would love to play one of these games, Wir is getting old only seeing 41 turns

Well if you'd like to let's try Mist's '44 scenario with modified victory rules. I'd say a historical outcome (Russians winning in early May) is a draw, a Soviet win has to happen before March, and holding past July is a German victory.
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DavidFaust
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RE: new house rules

Post by DavidFaust »

We can help Russian side if we reduce a number of plotting squares for tank corps from 5 to 4.


I feel this will not do anything for the game. I wouild like to add as little rules with as much dept as posible.
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RE: new house rules

Post by DavidFaust »

Well if you'd like to let's try Mist's '44 scenario with modified victory rules. I'd say a historical outcome (Russians winning in early May) is a draw, a Soviet win has to happen before March, and holding past July is a German victory.


I would love to play a 43 camp or/and this one. I would rather the 43 camp.
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K62_
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RE: new house rules

Post by K62_ »

I must warn you first that I have a lot of experience with the '43 campaign, I was even lucky enough to defeat Josan in it. I love to play it, but we'd start on more equal ground with the other scenario, which I never PBEMd.
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DavidFaust
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RE: new house rules

Post by DavidFaust »

must warn you first that I have a lot of experience with the '43 campaign, I was even lucky enough to defeat Josan in it. I love to play it, but we'd start on more equal ground with the other scenario, which I never PBEMd.


I dont have a problem if you have had alot of experience playing the 43 camp and I have not played a game. Ill need to adjust my risk taking then.
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K62_
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RE: new house rules

Post by K62_ »

OK then. Campaign '43 it is. I'll set the rules and you choose your side.

House rules as discussed on the other thread; naval transport possible.

Modified victory conditions:
Soviet win: normal
German win: a draw with the Germans in control of Eastern Europe; specifically they must hold Bucharest, Budapest and Warszaw at the end of the game (august 1945 I think)
Draw otherwise

Pick your side sir.
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DavidFaust
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RE: new house rules

Post by DavidFaust »

Im trying to flog this dead hores!!!
How about some imput for the players?!?

1) A corps can only change its commanding HQ before it receive extra supply.

2) No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy unit may be attacked more than 2 times per turn.

3) To plot more than 2 hexes of movement an armored Korps/Corps must be composed of AT LEAST TWO Panzer, Tank, Motorized, PanzerGrenadier (PZG), Mechanized or Cavalry Divisions FOR EVERY ONE non-mobile (Infantry) Division. If an armored Korps containing regular infantry divisions does not have the minimum amount of mobile Divisions in it, it may only plot 2 hexes as if it were an infantry Korps/Army.

4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 7 hexes to it.


5) No Hungarian, Rumanian, or Finnish units may be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. No Italian units may be sent to the West Front HQ.


6) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.

7) (3.3 only) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.

8) A corps must use all its plots (2 or 5) to enter an enemy controlled mountain or swamp hex. Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain.


9) No changing the chains of command

10) HQ's may only contain 1 division per hexes it is away from a enemy controled hex ; HQ's 4 or more hexes away may contain an unlimited amount of divisions. For hex counting include the hex the friendly HQ is in.
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Agent Smith
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RE: new house rules

Post by Agent Smith »

Thank you Kingtiger_501 for your efforts on creating a new set of home rules - "Kingtiger rules".
My notes:
1) A corps can make only one change of its commanding HQ per turn. (I think it is not neccesary to avoid special supply + changing of HQ combo, because both sides can use it and it is historical).
2) I am not a native English speaker. I think i was unable to cleary state my thoughts previously.
If there are 3 groups of bombers in HQ and you want to bomb an enemy corp(A). Your can interdict it only once a turn from this HQ. You can send any number of group to do it - 1, 2 or 3. If your send 1 group of bombers to interdict enemy corp(A) , your can use others air groups to interdict enemy corp(B) or\and enemy corp(C).
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JagdFlanker
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RE: new house rules

Post by JagdFlanker »

i think what you mean is:

2) Each HQ may air attack any single enemy Korps/Corps/Army/HQ only once per turn.

actually that sounds pretty good! but perhaps if you moved your aircraft around a lot you could group a lot of HQ's and Aircraft in 1 area on a single turn and still really kill something, then move them back before the enemy can react so i suggest adding:

2) Each HQ may air attack any single enemy Korps/Corps/Army/HQ only once per turn. No single enemy Korps/Corps/Army/HQ may be air attacked more than 3 times per turn.

of course, 3 times could be 2 times, as above. depends if there is any agreement that if the rule was changed to this there still is a way to abuse air power easily!
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Agent Smith
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RE: new house rules

Post by Agent Smith »

Yes! It is exactly what i mean.[:)]
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K62_
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RE: new house rules

Post by K62_ »

ORIGINAL: Agent Smith
1) A corps can make only one change of its commanding HQ per turn. (I think it is not neccesary to avoid special supply + changing of HQ combo, because both sides can use it and it is historical).

This rule then has no purpose. If you click in the wrong place and assign the corps to the wrong HQ then it must remain there. The only way this affects the game is by making it more frustrating!
"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak" - John Adams
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Agent Smith
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RE: new house rules

Post by Agent Smith »

Ok. We can skip this rule alltogether.
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Agent Smith
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RE: new house rules

Post by Agent Smith »

My updated variant:
Technical rules:
1. A corps must have at least one division sized unit in it.(to avoid fake units, to avoid creating a strong defencive lines with arty and flak guns crews, some historical feeling)
2. Each HQ may air attack any single enemy Korps/HQ only once per turn. No single enemy Korps/Corps/Army/HQ may be air attacked more than 3 times per turn. (to balancing air power)
3. A corps must have x+1 Mobile division sized units in it to plot more than two squares of movement where x=number of Infantry division sized unit in it. (to avoid an abusment of Pz Corps)
4.HQ's may only contain 1 division per hexes it is away from a enemy controled hex ; HQ's 4 or more hexes away may contain an unlimited amount of divisions. For hex counting include the hex the friendly HQ is in. (to avoid HQ stacking)

Historical rules:
1. All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 7 hexes to it.
2. No Hungarian, Rumanian, or Finnish units or air groups may be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. No Italian units or air groups may be sent to the West Front HQ. Hungarian, Rumanian, Finnish and Italian air groups must be attached to their HQ.
3. Finnish forces MAY NOT attack (but can bomard) Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.
4. Hugarian and Rumanian units cannot be in the same corps.
5. Players cannot change a line of command.
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Agent Smith
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RE: new house rules

Post by Agent Smith »

Some expanations.
This variant is pretty close to Lorenzo's house rules and Kingtiger rules with some changes:

1. "HQ changing" - i skip this rules becouse in ver.3.3 corps can be supplied only once a turn anyway.
2. "Panzer ploting" - my variant is a bit simpler and less strict
3. "Panzer movement" - i think that game correctly reflecting a cost of entering a mountain and swamp areas.
4. "Panzer production" - it is optional "historical" rule. You can use it if you want. I personally do not like it.
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RE: new house rules

Post by DavidFaust »

1. A corps must have at least one division sized unit in it.(to avoid fake units, to avoid creating a strong defencive lines with arty and flak guns crews, some historical feeling)

I can see what you are saying here but if I had a division with 10 squads or a arty or flak with 10 guns what difference will it make? The game has a limmited number of korps to restrict making defence lines. I dont think this has a impact on the game and I would like to keep the rules more simple
2. Each HQ may air attack any single enemy Korps/HQ only once per turn. No single enemy Korps/Corps/Army/HQ may be air attacked more than 3 times per turn. (to balancing air power)


This rule is very close to the rule that is in play. I would prefer to have date limmits on airmissions but I dont think people would go for it. eg only 1 airmission/ air attack per korps in 41, 2 in 42 and 3 in 43. I think this will hinder Germany in 41 with air power becoming more powerful as the war goes on. What do players think of this?

3. A corps must have x+1 Mobile division sized units in it to plot more than two squares of movement where x=number of Infantry division sized unit in it. (to avoid an abusment of Pz Corps)


I like this as it is alot more simple but maybe a +2?
Historical rules:
1. All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 7 hexes to it.
2. No Hungarian, Rumanian, or Finnish units or air groups may be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. No Italian units or air groups may be sent to the West Front HQ. Hungarian, Rumanian, Finnish and Italian air groups must be attached to their HQ.
3. Finnish forces MAY NOT attack (but can bomard) Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.
4. Hugarian and Rumanian units cannot be in the same corps.
5. Players cannot change a line of command.


dont mind these except 4. this has no effect on the game and is just another rule to remember.

Some expanations.
This variant is pretty close to Lorenzo's house rules and Kingtiger rules with some changes:

1. "HQ changing" - i skip this rules becouse in ver.3.3 corps can be supplied only once a turn anyway.
2. "Panzer ploting" - my variant is a bit simpler and less strict
3. "Panzer movement" - i think that game correctly reflecting a cost of entering a mountain and swamp areas.
4. "Panzer production" - it is optional "historical" rule. You can use it if you want. I personally do not like it.


1, most people that I know of dont play with hq mules but both players could agree to this if they like it.
3, I read a great deal of war books and I would have to disagree very strongly with your views concerning mountains and swamps. I will post some information when i find it. In WiF they got there swamps right with all korps except cav being flipped and unable to move in a 2 month turn!!! In WIR, you can zip through swamps, mountains and forest at the same speed if you were on the auto barn for a minor readiness loss. maybe this rule would be better if it was optional. I would like to play test it to see its effects.

If it would work but it would not, I would like to limmit the effects of forrest also. Eg ..if a pz korps enters a forest hex its next plot must be a 0. If it can not plot a 0, it many not attack the hex


Mybe we need to group the rules in 2 parts, standard rules and optional rules??
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Agent Smith
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RE: new house rules

Post by Agent Smith »

1. Yes the game limits a number of corps, but still it is pretty high. You can spare 10-20 corps with ease. Even after shattering most infantry divisions reappeared whith 40-60 squads (2000-3000 men). Anyway we need a rule agains "fake" corps cutting supply lines.

2. Intresting idea. It is worth considering

3. I am "feeling" that "+1" is right. [;)]

4. Yes. I think that "historical" rules can be optional - we can create a whole set of them. And players would be abla to find a right spot on "historical accuracy - freedom of decision" grade.

5. One more "technical" rule - x) Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn. Destination hex must be a port. Do we need it?
DavidFaust
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RE: new house rules

Post by DavidFaust »

1. Yes the game limits a number of corps, but still it is pretty high. You can spare 10-20 corps with ease. Even after shattering most infantry divisions reappeared whith 40-60 squads (2000-3000 men). Anyway we need a rule agains "fake" corps cutting supply lines.


I understood your concern with this rule was the abality of arty to ent korps in the rear lines, not for small divisions cutting supply or are they both of your concerns? Small units cutting supply should never be a problem if it is guarded!! Both sides used this tactic during the war to slow down each others advance. Russia's used it very skillfuly to destroy germany arty moving up to the front.

I will leave this rule out as the hole ent system in this game sucks. If you and others feel strongly about it, I will add it as a optional rule.
3. I am "feeling" that "+1" is right. [;)]


Will leave it like this for the play testing
5. One more "technical" rule - x) Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn. Destination hex must be a port. Do we need it?


I think something has to be added to keep players from being surprised and disheartened when they encounter this tactic.

I would like to add... 1 stacking point per korps, 3 per shock/tank/pz korps. I would like to add this to force players to use important korps to do these tricky moves.

I would like to do a final rules list soon and start play testing them. What I need is some imput of what rules shoud be used as standard or what rules would you like as optional.
Veroporo
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RE: new house rules

Post by Veroporo »

Just define: A full division is a any unit with 150+ squads + equipment in the ranks.

And really like the 1 air attack in 1941, 2 in 1942 etc rule. Makes it possible to defend as russian.
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Agent Smith
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RE: new house rules

Post by Agent Smith »

Ok. It is time to test it.
I am looking for an opponent (either German or Soviet) to play with following home rules:

1. A corps must have at least one division sized unit in it.
2. Each HQ may air attack any single enemy Korps/HQ only once per turn. No single enemy Korps/Corps/Army/HQ may be air attacked (interdict or bomb AF) more than 3 times per turn.
3. A corps must have x+1 Mobile division sized units in it to plot more than two squares of movement where x=number of Infantry division sized unit in it.
4.HQ's may only contain 1 division per hexes it is away from a enemy controled hex ; HQ's 4 or more hexes away may contain an unlimited amount of divisions. For hex counting include the hex the friendly HQ is in.
5. Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn. Destination hex must be a port.
6. All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 7 hexes to it.
7. No Hungarian, Rumanian, or Finnish units or air groups may be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. No Italian units or air groups may be sent to the West Front HQ. Hungarian, Rumanian, Finnish and Italian air groups must be attached to their HQ.
8. Finnish forces MAY NOT attack (but can bomard) Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.
9. Hugarian and Rumanian units cannot be in the same corps.
10. Players cannot change a line of command.

my e-mail is matt2sign$mail.ru
DavidFaust
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RE: new house rules

Post by DavidFaust »

1) A corps can only change its commanding HQ before it has been supplied.

2) No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy target may be attacked more than 2 times per turn. Raise attacks and missions by 1 in the 1st clear turn of 42.

3) A corps must have x+1 Mobile division sized units in it to plot more than two squares of movement where x=number of Infantry division sized unit in it. (to avoid an abusment of Pz Corps)

4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 7 hexes to it.

5) No Hungarian, Rumanian, or Finnish divisions may be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. No Italian divisions may be sent to the West Front HQ.

6) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.

7) (3.3 only) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.

8) No changing the chains of command

9) HQ's may only contain 1 division per hexes it is away from a enemy controled hex ; HQ's 4 or more hexes away may contain an unlimited amount of divisions. For hex counting include the hex the friendly HQ is in.

10) Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn.

Optional

A corps must use all its plots (2 or 5) to enter an enemy controlled mountain or swamp hex. Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain.
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