Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami

User avatar
Nikademus
Posts: 22517
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Alien spacecraft

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

So why not give the 4E bombers the repair rate they were using when a full group, not divided? Seeing as the 4Es are much tougher to maintain as a full group, why fix it so that the will repair as they do when split? We need to get operational level down. In Mogami's and my match, the B17s are like Eveready Batteries.

I mentioned such a thing, but just fixing the bug was the priority. Perhaps if Mike has time in the future it can be re-visited but he's really super busy right now. I'm thankful that it was at least fixed because splitting up all those BG and FG's was a major pain the tailpipe. Bear in mind too the old UV argument.
Sonny
Posts: 2005
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2002 9:51 pm

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by Sonny »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
ORIGINAL: Bombur
-Hmmm...not sure, if a bomb lands close to a plane (let us wonder, 40 meters) it could destroy a Nate but not a B-17.

B17 is much bigger than Nate so it presents a larger target.

O.

Nates (and Anns) fall apart if a fly lands on them. Besides, they put the good planes in the revetments and leave the junk parked on the runway.[:D]
Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
Sonny
Posts: 2005
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2002 9:51 pm

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by Sonny »

ORIGINAL: denisonh

This sounds like a whiney Jap fanboy club thread to me Oleg.[:'(]

There is an issue with the B-17 that needs to be addressed, but it one of several that need to be addressed.

I still believe that the overeffectiveness of early war CAP is far more unbalancing, as CVs wander around invicible early in the war. There are not an abundance of examples of LBA attacks early because naval leaders avoided the situation, but the way the game plays, players park CV groups next to major airbases as they are invulnerable.

So I would submit that neutering both Japanese and Allied unbalancing game effects be addressed.


ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
ORIGINAL: BlackVoid
I am very skeptical about any official change on this matter, IIRC the repair problem of groups vs squadrons was not even acknowledged by Matrix. Also, any change will result in a massive whining campaign by allied fanboys who are much more vocal than the other side.

How true!

Allied fanboys are so very vocal and whiney, any change they perceive as anti-allied and they threaten revolution. I want to achieve balanced, non-fanboy approach to this game, but with so many allied fanboys going ape about every minor issue they perceive as problem, I find myself "pushed" towards IJN fanboy club, which I personally want to avoid at all costs [:-]

O.

Play as Japan and you won't see it that way at all.
Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
medicff
Posts: 710
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:53 pm
Location: WPB, Florida

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by medicff »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

its not a wish list item at present. To be honest I cant blame 2b3 for rolling their eyes if it were given what happened with the UV patch. The good news is that the BS/BG FS/FG repair bug 'has' been fixed so players no longer need to do the split dance.

The bad news, depending on one's viewpoint, is that the BG/FG's repair at the rate the squadrons did so as mentioned, it's pretty easy to keep even a full B-17 BG near 100% operational status if AV pointage is adequate or only a little bit in the red. (unless it gets really nailed in A2A combat)

They said they were making the repair rate for full groups the same as the splits, however the 4E bombers have always repaired at a slower rate then other planes.
User avatar
Bombur
Posts: 3666
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:50 am

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by Bombur »

ORIGINAL: spence

Massed 100+ attacks by B-17s didn't happen in the PTO.
NEITHER DID COORDINATED ANTI-SHIPPING STRIKES BY 100+ BETTYS OR NELLS. Could it be that the IJN found it utterly impossible to stockpile and service 100s of aerial torpedos at every medium bomber base in the eventuality that 4-5 Daitai just drop in, refuel, arm and then go smash the decadent westerners (for the time being I'll leave out the fact that after sinking Repulse and Prince of Wales those vaunted torpedo bombers averaged less than 1 torpedo hit a month for the rest of the war in raids by any number against any target ). The game allows the IJN a certainly operational artistic license with their medium bombers. I don't see a corresponding artistic license for the US as a big problem.

-I also agree with you. And even if IJN was able to launch these massive raids the extreme vulnerability of G4M´s to both AA and aircraft would result in high losses. I personally think that 36 durability is too high for a planes known as flying lighter. I´m making experiences with a reduced Betty durability (30). On the other hand, the powerful Betties and Nells can be easily neutralized by a few night raids by USA heavy bombers, that can destroy 1 plane in the target airfield for each 2 heavy bombers that fly a mission.
User avatar
Bombur
Posts: 3666
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:50 am

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by Bombur »

B17 is much bigger than Nate so it presents a larger target.

-Which makes difference when you have fighter bombers and dive bombers targeting specific aircraft, but heavy bombers simply drop their bombs over a certain area and hope them to hit something....
User avatar
Bombur
Posts: 3666
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:50 am

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by Bombur »

Its an idea but I think that would produce too many combat losses. The Fort should be a tough nut to knock down ,however the more they are hit the more and longer the planes shold be out of action repairing. (in the game)

-Correct, and I feel that in WiTP B-17´s are more vulnerable to Zeroes than in UV. In my Guadalcanal campaign my enemy lost around 100 B-17´s in air combat. Fortunately, he achieved very few with these monsters as he used them as antiship platforms in daylight attacks. Well, actually he sank a lot of transports and even 2-3DD´s and 1CL with B-17´s and B-24´s, which seems to be a trouble too. B-17´s are too powerful vs. ships. I would be happy if the precision of heavy bombers could be tuned down and if B-17´s were given slower repair rates.
User avatar
pauk
Posts: 4156
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb,Croatia

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Oh, you are mixing apples and pears. While we can discuss about overeffective CAP we should not forget that BOTH sides have advantage of "uber" CAP. Just because none of us came far in the game ('43,'44) doesn't mean that allies wont have advantage of "uber" CAP.

The fact that both sides suffer from this is not make it acceptable. Well, seeing as how you both shot each other, we won't press charges.

hi, i do agree with you.

But, we were talking about ONE side issue. Again, don't mix apples and pears. I do agree with you - it is not acceptable for both sides (CAP),but we are talking about B-17.
Image
User avatar
pauk
Posts: 4156
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb,Croatia

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

This is not the "main problem" with the game. This is the flavour of the month. Problem is that there are soooo many major problems with the game as is. Hopefully we will have enough time to play the monster of a game enough to highlite them before WITP becomes so passe that no further support is forthcoming.


well, depends how you look at the game. For me, it is big problem.... like for you is overrated BB bombardmet. I guess we are different typs [;)][:D]
Image
bradfordkay
Posts: 8686
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 8:39 am
Location: Olympia, WA

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by bradfordkay »

How do you guys feel about modifying both US Heavy Bomber and Japanese Medium Bomber Torpedo effectiveness? Would that be a balanced approach?
fair winds,
Brad
User avatar
Ron Saueracker
Posts: 10967
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: pauk
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

This is not the "main problem" with the game. This is the flavour of the month. Problem is that there are soooo many major problems with the game as is. Hopefully we will have enough time to play the monster of a game enough to highlite them before WITP becomes so passe that no further support is forthcoming.


well, depends how you look at the game. For me, it is big problem.... like for you is overrated BB bombardmet. I guess we are different typs [;)][:D]

I think that alot of compromises must be made in the CHS, or any mod for that matter, in order to handle problems in with different circumstances. Max Flex we used to say in the Army.

In my current match with Mogami using a stock scen 15 scenario I have shown that the supply model is too generous and really screws up the situation in northern Australia, and of course the entire DEI as the Allied player can ahistorically turn the northern bases into a viable jumping off point for adventures into the DEI.

Andy Brown's wonderful map mod, a centerpiece of the CHS mod, reverses many errors regarding historical infrastructure (removes the Autobahn running around OZ for example) making supply an issue for the bases in the Northern Territories and their use as jumping off points for invasions questionable. But we need to go further than simple supply in order to deal with the B-17/B-24 issue.

Once a base hits size 6, these bombers are so easily maintained that continuous ops at 90+ operational aircraft levels are possible in the game, something not possible IRL due to wear and tear, lack of spare parts, the equatorial weather etc. So what to do? I think many bases should be cut down to size as I think the approach taken regarding base size has been too generous and/or generalized. Instead of making these bases capable of becoming size 6 (which in reality WAS possible), the game mechanics demand that we don't allow then to get to this size because if they do, it allows ahistoric performance of 4E bombers.

So, in the pursuit of historic results, sometimes we have to sacrifice historical accuracy (physical base size) to achieve the more important historical performance and allow for variance.

Uber CAP, Japanese ability to coordinate long range naval strikes, instantaneous air transfer are other things which need some help as Spence abley points out. Soooo many problems based on assumptions and lack of adequate research. The fact that so many design aspects/assumptions of previous games in the genre make it into later projects, be it by the same designer or simply games which basically started the genre and as a result have been used as flawless tomes of knowledge, is really frustrating. The RN withdrawl requirement is an example of this. Why only the Royal Navy ships? Oh, because that's how they did it in Avalon Hill's "War in the Pacific". I'm pretty sure the perceived Japanese strike coordination bonus has been passed on from game to game, entrenching itself in lore rather than being born out of fact.
Image

Image

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
Halsey
Posts: 4688
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:44 pm

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by Halsey »

[&o]
spence
Posts: 5421
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:56 am
Location: Vancouver, Washington

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by spence »

I think that if there is a "magic number" for 4E bomber bases which allow continuous operation by large number of 4E bombers then it, the number, should be very hard to obtain. Likewise I think some magic number should apply to bases from which the IJN can launch massive attacks with aerial torpedo toting mediums which should also be difficult to build to. Certainly the IJN should start with some number of them in their pre-war empire but the ability to turn just any old base into such a base should be constrained - as it is aerial torpedos are just "supply" in the game (I think), whereas in reality they were very specialized supply and required supply/support just to exist as "an ammo supply" for the medium bombers.
Ron's idea about being less generous with base size and base size potential seems a workable way to effect everybody's concerns with regards both B-17s and IJN medium bombers ( though if it were implemented I'd image the forums would be full of posts arguing about the "right size" for this or that base).
User avatar
tsimmonds
Posts: 5490
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: astride Mason and Dixon's Line

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by tsimmonds »

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

How do you guys feel about modifying both US Heavy Bomber and Japanese Medium Bomber Torpedo effectiveness? Would that be a balanced approach?
I'd agree with any restrictions that slow the tempo of operations, as long as they are fair.
Fear the kitten!
Halsey
Posts: 4688
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:44 pm

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by Halsey »

Balance! That's all I want from this game![:D]

Neither side needs the lopsided weapons systems and rule enhancements.
Mike Scholl
Posts: 6187
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:17 am
Location: Kansas City, MO

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by Mike Scholl »

This posting tries to limit it's complaints to the Allied B-17's, but in truth the game blew it overall on basing and support. If you use a single-engined fighter as the "base" for calculation, then it would be far more accurate if the game "charged" twice as much in base level and support for twin-engined A/C, and 3 times as much for 4-engined A/C.
I've said this for months.

Instead it uses Air Base size. As long as the runway is long enough, you can fly B-17's from a small (lvl 1) AB just fine----you just can't fly very many of them! To use a common game occurance, a Base force which can support 30 A/C on a level 1 airstrip
ought to be able to support 30 single-engined A/C, or 15 twin-engined A/C, or 10 4-engined A/C. If they would remove the "upper limit" on Air Base size, I'd support a
"cost" of four for the B-29's as they really needed major facilities to fly from.

It's not just the Allied multi-engined A/C that need more room and support, it's EVERYBODY'S larger aircraft! The game's reflection of this is poor, so players resort to a-historic methods to work around the problem.
User avatar
tsimmonds
Posts: 5490
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: astride Mason and Dixon's Line

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by tsimmonds »

Mike, I fully agree.
Fear the kitten!
Sonny
Posts: 2005
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2002 9:51 pm

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by Sonny »

One thing which might help in the lessening of support for aircraft is to make stacking of engineers at a base a diminishing return affair. Right now (and in UV) you could stack an enormous amount of engineers at a base and have it up to a level to support multi engine planes in no time.

There must have been a reason IRL that armies did not do this (or did we as WitP players discover a new engineering technique?). Either these same reasons need to be applied in the game or we need to artificially limit the effectiveness of stacking tons of engineers at a base.

Couple this with the need for one aviation support point per engine at a base and things might quiet down somewhat.
Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
Halsey
Posts: 4688
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:44 pm

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by Halsey »

Excellent idea Mike!
User avatar
freeboy
Posts: 8969
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 9:33 am
Location: Colorado

RE: Changes to B-17s in 1.5

Post by freeboy »

There is a cap of 275 I think after which eng have Zero benifit
"Tanks forward"
Post Reply

Return to “War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945”