RTS thoughts

[*Lava*]

Hi!

I think the problem here is definition of terms. It would seem for most, RTS = Command and Conquer or Age of Empires type games.

Personally, I do not consider such games RTS wargames.

I think such a definition results in posters making the following weird comments:

ORIGINAL: AlexT

they are like a virus and soon Matrix will sell also Ego Shooters and Flightsims ...
hope Matrix will not ruin their name with action strategygames.
There are so many distributors who sell RTS games, I want at least on last who bring us "roundbased games" (Doesn't matter which genre)

So maybe I of the enemy could also have a "roundbased" option ?

Anyway even I will not buy it if it is one that &%&$&% RTS games, wish you luck.
(Okay the only useful RTS games are from Paradox )

Actually, there are very few RTS wargames.

The Civil War: Bull Run is an outstanding RTS wargame which cannot be paused to give orders and is continuous time. Winning in CWBR relies on the use of good tactics and sound strategy.

I for one would love to see a lot more games in real time, but only if they are true to their subject matter and are actually wargames, and not production games.

Ray (alias Lava)

[ravinhood]

The definition of RTS is a big problem for them also. Some games like CWBR actually use a correct real time system dedicated to "thinkers" and not "clickers". Sid Meiers Gettysburg also, Seven Kingdoms. But, the kiddie clickfest RTS games are just that, they play in a "extremely accellerated real time" not in any world I know of real time that things happen within seconds and the speed of light.

If more of the kiddie clickfests would tone down the time to the speed more like in CWBR and Sid Meiers Gettysburg and even the early Total War games, they would be much more enjoyable for those of us that are pretty die-hard turn based or wego gamers.

As soon as I see I have to play faster than I want to think, that game finds it's way to ebay or the trash can.

It's funny how some of the more strategic designers of slow rts or turn based have moved to the fast pace of rts games (RTW) and while increasing their fanbase one way, they deminish it another way.

As far as Paradox games, since it has such a slowwwwww setting, I don't have any difficulty playing EU 2 or HOI (origional). Neither do I feel rushed. They have the right idea for marrying rts to turn based, now, if they can just get their chit straight and release better games out of the box instead of requiring umpteen jillion patches. And quit making 2's of the same damn game just for more milk mony. (HOI 2).

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

If more of the kiddie clickfests would tone down the time to the speed more like in CWBR and Sid Meiers Gettysburg and even the early Total War games, they would be much more enjoyable for those of us that are pretty die-hard turn based or wego gamers.

Hi!

I totally agree. Some of these RTS games have even gone to point of allowing you to make formations (Cossacks I believe), but if it all boils down to who can produce the most the fastest, what's the point?

Ray (alias Lava)

[Arjuna]

What's in a name?

Well quite a lot going on the reactions in this thread. Anyone would think RTS = 666. With few exceptions RTS titles claiming to be "wargames" have left a bad taste in most wargamers mouths. Why? Because they are not anywhere near realistic simulations. However to dismiss all "real time" games as therefore being "useless" is like saying the wargamers I know love Civil War games therefore all wargamers must love Civil War games. With no offence to lovers of Civil War games this is patently ( and maybe unfortunately ) not the case. Similarly, there are "realistic" wargames using real time. Our Highway to the Reich ( HTTR ) being a classic example.

The initial bias against HTTR from many wargamers becasue it was a real time engine was so palpable we coined the term Pausable Continuous Time ( PCT ) to try and differentiate it from what most people associated with the term RTS. This has helped a little but I still receive emails and posts are still being made all the time on the HTTR forum from wargamers who have only just now bought HTTR saying that this is the best wargame they have ever played and that they're kicking themselves for waiting so long before buying it. It's a slow process but I do believe that eventually most wargamers will come to realise the true benfits that a real time game engine can provide.

It doesn't have to be a "click fest" or "unrealistic". Far from it. In fact, a real time wargame can provide a far more realistic simulation of warfare than a turn based system. Primarily because of the fidelity of time being modeled. A real time system can increment events and hence processing into very fine intervals. HTTR does this in 1 minute intervals. This allows for differentiations that a turn based system cannot achieve.

Eg. take orders delay for example. In your typical turn based operational wargame you have a one or two hourly turn interval. To impose orders delay, then all units must apply at least one full turns worth - ie 1 hour say. This is then going to be applied to every company regardless of commander efficiency or staff quality etc. That would be unrealistic. In HTTR we can apply a whole range of delay periods and vary these according to a range of factors to realistic simulate the differences between poor units and good ones.

There are a whole host of other areas in which a well designed real time system exceeds by a quantum measure that which a turn based engine can achieve. Just to name a few - momentum, surprise, combat resolution, reaction and many more.

It's time we wargamers started exercising a little more discrimination in examining this issue and resist the temptation to jump to the wrong conclusions. Just because a few well known RTS titles erroneously call themselves "wargames" doesn't mean that all real time wargames are &%&$&%.

Personnally I believe that real time wargames are the future. I have been designing wargames since 1983. Initially I started out with turn based games ( Trial of Strength and Fire-Brigade ) but after much analysis I realised in 1995 that only a real-time system could provide the realism I wanted to achieve in a wargame. It was a long gestation period before our first real time title - Red Devils Over Arnhem ( RDOA ) - was finally published in 2001. There were many issues to address and there are many more to come. Wargame development is an evolutionary process and we will continue to refine and develop our engine.

For our up and coming release - Conquest of the Aegean ( COTA ) - we will be incorporating two new BIG features, mixed mode movement and the most realistic resupply system yet seen in a commercial wargame, plus a whole swag of minor features and enhancements. COTA will IMHO be the best operational wargame on the market. It derserves a better tag than "another &%&$&% RTS" title.

[Fred98]

HTTR is fabulous!

It is not a "RTS" and its not a click fest.

Some players prefer to add up all the attack factors and add up all the defense factors and then calculate a result.

But I am not one of 'em. I reckon we must take advantage of computers to make wargaming better.

[dbt1949_slith]

Altho I kind of enjoy RTSs I'm lousey at them. The click fest of things like Starcraft are just too much for ths olde man.
I can handle things like HOI2 as they can be slowed way down and even stopped to issue orders but I've decided that from now on any non turn based games are going to be far and few between.

[wodin]

HTTR works a treat but even though it has the most realistic feel I still prefer turn based. More structered gameplay. Go at own pace.

Maybe its the scale of HTTR. I might prefer it at squad level.

[Sarge]

HTTR is the exception and by no means the rule.


The wargame community did not turn RTS into a four letter word. On the contrary,developers looking to make a quick buck did.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: Sarge

HTTR is the exception and by no means the rule.


The wargame community did not turn RTS into a four letter word. On the contrary,developers looking to make a quick buck did.

Ray (alias Lava)

[ravinhood]

The wargame community did not turn RTS into a four letter word. On the contrary,developers looking to make a quick buck did.

Amen Sarge.

[Riun T]

Hey SARGE using a reply to u to sortta shake RAT RACE"S head and ask him what game company planning committee he thinks he's on spouting off like this, second I have seen real combat and can state pro's and conn's to all the hypathetical solutions of time that any game of any genre has come up with. I have only found that the old codemasters Operation Flashpoint came closest to what I've personally been involved with in real life, But I think another day that I might see what it feels like to be in the BIG generals chair and play SPWAW or Combat Mission and get the headache of micromanageing all the aspects of a combined force that during my real service days I had neither the rank or experience to deal with even thou I was in one of them then. I've Had real life worries about Artty delay and dangerclose missions were MY butt was on the razors edge and now that I'm enjoying civie life Its truely good to hear ALL these posts,play these games and live in a country that don't shoot us outspoken pillars of wisdom, no matter what our points of view. RT

[Zap]

It derserves a better tag than "another &%&$&% RTS" title.

From what I've seen in these posts, most gamers would welcome a quality game with some real time play if it fit their personal likes. I purchased HTTR and hope to get some time to play test it.

If it seems we are generalizing, we're not, I bought a game RTS "Call of Duty" I played it a few times. It now sits in my stack of non-play games. Its these kind of experiences that set ones mind to the negative.It gave me a headache and a soar wrist.

I'm probably of the same mindset as Wodin I like, as a preference, turn based but have been known to play real time games.

If the game meets a reasonable standard of realism and interests me I will play it. I am open.

There are sometimes when I just want to waste time and not think about anything so I play a RTS clicker.

[ravinhood]

I just want to waste time and not think about anything so I play a RTS clicker.

There you go, you summed up rts well in the bold statement.