B-17/CAP test redux

[mogami]

Hi, The group does not have higher morale because it only has 11 out of 36 pilots left and you won't know the groups morale before you add the 25 new pilots. The 11 pilots left are all very happy with being still alive and likely they had success in the mission. Fighter pilots don't get unhappy when they survive. However post the groups morale on the following turn after the 25 new pilots arrive and realize why they are there.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The group does not have higher morale because it only has 11 out of 36 pilots left and you won't know the groups morale before you add the 25 new pilots. The 11 pilots left are all very happy with being still alive and likely they had success in the mission. Fighter pilots don't get unhappy when they survive. However post the groups morale on the following turn after the 25 new pilots arrive and realize why they are there.

Agreed.

In my experience, after the first batch of (pre-war) pilots are gone .. "automatically" adding pilots to the IJA units .. wil give you a pile of guys .. ranging from 20 to 40 in experience .. and they require 2+ months to get up to the 50 area ... using them in China for a while can help ... but regardless .. they certainly are not "ready to go" at 0800 the morning after ... it is for that reason that I do not ( hardly ever ) run my Japanese air units at the front on "accept replacements" ( maybe recon or transports only ) .. I first fly the remnants out to the rear ... then add replacement aircraft .. then pilots ... then initial traiing .. then transfer to "quiet base" for "advanced training" etc.

Adding the planes "automatically" at the front ... just creates targets ( on the ground with no pilots ... or in the air with 20s-39s ) with poilots ) for the enemy.

[mogami]

Hi, My combat groups never take replacements. I train groups just for that and when required send them to the combat group and disband. They bring their aircraft and they are trained. The group therefore does not have to spend time repairing aircraft (normal for 1 or 2 to become damaged on transfer but they repair in the day I allow the new pilots to rest. So after a battle like the above 24 new pilots with aircraft would have transfered to base. (A training Senatai of 36 aircraft would have split into 3 parts sending two or two Chutai of 12 AC each) They would have then disbanded bringing the group to 35 pilots and aircraft. The new pilots being trained have higher morale and the older pilots are not dismayed at getting bodies who will be little help in next battle. But my combat group would be ready for action at higher experiance and morale and in less time then this group will be after it repairs the aircraft Also this method does not consume supply at the front. The replacements have been paid for back in Japan.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The group does not have higher morale because it only has 11 out of 36 pilots left and you won't know the groups morale before you add the 25 new pilots. The 11 pilots left are all very happy with being still alive and likely they had success in the mission. Fighter pilots don't get unhappy when they survive. However post the groups morale on the following turn after the 25 new pilots arrive and realize why they are there.

Russ, please.

The morale for this group has already been figured for this turn. That new morale level for the surviving pilots is 71. Last turn it was 99. As I stated, all air units for both sides started out before the sweep with 99 morale and 0 fatigue.

So the new morale for this unit, based on the surviving pilots, sits at 71. The morale for next turn, based on these surviving pilots and the replacement pilots, has not been computed yet.

Okay?

I know that the experience level will drop next turn for the pilots. I've seen them. They suck. What the morale for the unit will be then in aggregate I don't know. Or the fatigue. But if you want I'll run that and then we'll know for sure, we won't have to guess.

No matter that, the morale for this Sentai should be in the toilet, and its fatigue should be kissing the stars. Assuming the IJA was not out of experienced pilots (it happens to be, but that's mere coincidence) then this Sentai would be ready to roll tomorow or the next day. Same same for the Allies.

That's nonsense.

Fly boys didn't come back and celebrate after losing 77% of their comrades. They came back shell shocked. They might have flown the next day anyway, because in real life these people didn't fly when they "wanted to" or according to "dice rolls" but they flew when they were ordered to fly. That's how the game should have it.

But happy these guys would not be. They'd be all stressed out. They'd have "battle fatigue" and such. They'd stand down, most likely, and if possible superiors might well rotate the unit out and replace it with a new unit. The unit sure as hell wouldn't be kicking ass in twelve hours.

Why are we arguing about this? Can't you just see or feel when something's radically wrong?

[mogami]

Hi, Why should the 11 surviving pilots who all scored victories in the battle and survivied plumment more then the 29 points it dropped in a single day. That is a massive drop for a single turn considering it would have remained at 99 had they flown CAP and not engaged. These are not little kids crying over losing a baseball game they are combat pilots all trained and veteran they show 47 victories how many did the group have before the mission. Did the group shoot down more then it lost? In any event the group will be running from combat within a week if results remain the same. (Assuming the 25 replacements are all vets as well the group morale will be below 50 in two missions.)
Lesser experianced pilots lose morale faster then vets. Vets can suffer high loss and depending on whether or not they consider themselves to be winning might even gain in morale. (The weak and slackers are gone) Combat troops don't fall apart after one day if they think they have won. Sometimes it is easier to wipe out a unit then break it's morale.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, My combat groups never take replacements. I train groups just for that and when required send them to the combat group and disband. They bring their aircraft and they are trained. The group therefore does not have to spend time repairing aircraft (normal for 1 or 2 to become damaged on transfer but they repair in the day I allow the new pilots to rest. So after a battle like the above 24 new pilots with aircraft would have transfered to base. (A trainging Senatai of 36 aircraft would have split into 3 parts sending two or two Chutai of 12 AC each) They would have then disbanded bringing the group to 35 pilots and aircraft. The new pilots being trained have higher morale and the older pilots are not dismayed at getting bodies who will be little help in next battle. But my combat group would be ready for action at higher experiance and morale then this group will be after it repairs the aircraft Also this method does not consume supply at the front. The replacements have been paid for back in Japan.

The "disband" method is good for maintaining the highest possible quality in the carrier training air groups ... but should be balanced against the 90day lead time just to get back to square one ... that being an air unit with average 30 experience pilots ...

So I use the "disband" method certainly for CT air units ... but otherwise often pull out a 20-40% remnant ... fill it up ... and train it up ... using China if possible for "advancedf training ... and then return to the front when at around 60 ( 55-65 ) ... if I can avoid the 90 day lag time .. I do ... for recon and transports ... I never use the disband method ...

But sounds like you're not only using "the mogami method" from carrier trained .. but for EVERYTHING !!!

But in this case .. you always pay the 90 day premium ... correct ?

[mogami]

Hi, Yes but since I start on day one of the war the 90 days is part of the program. I often have groups waiting for aircraft to be produced so even if they came back the next day they would still be waiting. However now I can equip groups with aircraft for training and change them when enough in pool to transfer to front with. I plan my operations with the training/replacement rate in mind. It is part of why as Japan I expand much less then other players and why I tend to fight short but violent battles in my operations.
(90 days is also about the time LCU require to prepare for new objective.)

[Tristanjohn]

All right. Here are the new morale/fatigue scores for the Japanese planes the next turn after the replacement pilots have been figured into those scores.

For the 144th Sentai the new scores (morale/fatigue) are 70/6. In other words, virtually no movement. For the other Sentai (203rd) the new scores are 89/3. Again, no appreciable movement. For the two Zero Daitais the new scores come to 99/6 and 91/4. Same same there.

Are we happy now, Russ? What did you expect?

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Why should the 11 surviving pilots who all scored victories in the battle and survivied plumment more then the 29 points it dropped in a single day. That is a massive drop for a single turn considering it would have remained at 99 had they flown CAP and not engaged. These are not little kids crying over losing a baseball game they are combat pilots all trained and veteran they show 47 victories how many did the group have before the mission. Did the group shoot down more then it lost? In any event the group will be running from combat within a week if results remain the same. (Assuming the 25 replacements are all vets as well the group morale will be below 50 in two missions.)
Lesser experianced pilots lose morale faster then vets. Vets can suffer high loss and depending on whether or not they consider themselves to be winning might even gain in morale. (The weak and slackers are gone) Combat troops don't fall apart after one day if they think they have won. Sometimes it is easier to wipe out a unit then break it's morale.

The drop for the 144th was the largest of all the air units involved (Allied and Japanese) and the only one which even approached reality. The rest became more and more ridiculous as I read them off.

These are not little kids. These are human beings. And they ought to react like human beings. Human beings can only take so much.

Russ, the game runs too fast. This is one of the reasons the game runs too fast.

Now, if you want, come back and tell me that in your opinion the game doesn't run too fast. Otherwise, I submit that this would be a good place to help the game to slow down. And I'd view that as a good thing.

[mogami]

Hi, The reality is that a group that lost 25 pilots and ac in a single mission is done with combat. That slows the game down. What kind of knucklehead is going to send that group back into combat if the replacement pilots are untrained. It would be slaughtered worse then the last time. The group has lost combat effectivness even if the remaining 11 pilots are not sad enough to suit you. A 29 percent drop in morale for anyone is a large drop. Japan cannot support such loss and by the way the commitment of 5 groups to such a mission is a major commitment for Japan. Currently I am engaged in operations against Port Moresby and 5 groups is the equal to my total force on hand split between 3 bases. I could not make such a strike and if I did and got those results the operation to take Moresby would be over.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The reality is that a group that lost 25 pilots and ac in a single mission is done with combat. That slows the game down. What kind of knucklehead is going to send that group back into combat if the replacement pilots are untrained. It would be slaughtered worse then the last time. The group has lost combat effectivness even if the remaining 11 pilots are not sad enough to suit you. A 29 percent drop in morale for anyone is a large drop. Japan cannot support such loss and by the way the commitment of 5 groups to such a mission is a major commitment for Japan. Currently I am engaged in operations against Port Moresby and 5 groups is the equal to my total force on hand split between 3 bases. I could not make such a strike and if I did and got those results the operation to take Moresby would be over.

I agree that that unit should be done with combat. But if the IJA/IJN pools weren't empty in this particular case then these Sentai/Daitai would be up and running in a matter of one or two or three days. And that is ridiculous. That is one of the reasons this game runs too fast. Which is why I'd like to see a change.

[mogami]

Hi, Well if the Japanese player still has pilots and aircraft in pools and supply at the airfield it appears he has done the required planning to sustain the effort. Why would a single mission prevent a units from flying again if it had replacements? The AC require a week to repair. (run the turns and see how long before it has 36 ready ac again)
I might think combat troops (motivated and trained ones I mean) can stand it better then you do. How can this be measured in order to apply a number to it. 79 down from 99 might be too much or too little. I know it is something not easy to define numerically.
"Squadron leader hows your groups?"
"Well we lost 25 pilots and had a 29 point drop in morale we can take one more such mission before the boys will break for sure in a fight"

On a side note. Do you know 79 is lower then I would send a fighter group into action with?[X(]
I rest my boys when they get to mid 80's unless they are bomber pilots. Bomber pilots always seem to have low morale. Even when no fighters are over target.

[mogami]

Hi, Good grief I just had it pointed out to me who that groups commander is. It's a wonder the group lost 29 points. No really they did lose more then 29 points but before you had the chance to examine the group he inspired his weary pilots and raised it back up to 29. He is a 93 for crying out loud. If he was killed the group would drop to 30 without suffering any other loss. (I mean before the mission where 25 pilots were lost if instead he had been the sole loss the group morale would be lower then it is now. )


"Liberator crew over Rangoon on the night of 29 Feb 1944. A pair of Oscars piloted by aces Bunichi Yamaguchi and Hiroshi Takiguchi of the 204th Sentai had caught this bomber from behind as it was coned by searchlights. A second 159 Squadron Lib was also shot down in a like manner by the same two Oscars, "

He is one of the top IJAAF Aces of the war with 19 confirmed kills and he didn't get them against easy aircraft. He died in 1992. Not many pilots shot down 2 B-24 and he got 2 in 1 night. (in an OscarII)


compare this IJN list of pilots(not complete) s with USAAF pilots The IJAAF had as many Aces as the USAAF in the Paciifc War.

Bunji Yoshiyama (20+) Iwori Sakai (15) Jyozo Iwahasji (21)
Masatoshi Masuzawa (15) Shogo Saito (25+) Hiromichi Shinohara (58)
Kenji Shimada (27) Bunichi Yamaguchi (19) Yukio Shimokawa (16)
Tateo Kato (18) Yukiyoshi Wakamatsu (18) Hiroshi Onozaki (14)
Hideo Miyabe (12+) Yasuhiko Kuroe (51) Yojiro Ofusa (19)
Satoshi Anabuki (39) Yohei Hinoki (12+) Isamu Sasaki (38)
Moritsugu Kanai (32) Ryotaro Jobo (30+) Kosuke Tsubone (10+)
Katsuaki Kira (21+) Kazuo Shimizu (18+) Shigeo Nango (15+)
Susumu Kajinami (8+) Shogo Takeuchi (30+) Teruhiko Kobayashi (5)
Yoshio Yoshida (6+) Tadao Sumi (6) Fujitaro Ito (13+)
Isamu Kashiide (9) Makoto Ogawa (9) Nobuji Negishi (6)
Chuichi Ichikawa (10) Nagao Shirai (13) Sadamitsu Kimura (8)

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Yes but since I start on day one of the war the 90 days is part of the program. I often have groups waiting for aircraft to be produced so even if they came back the next day they would still be waiting. However now I can equip groups with aircraft for training and change them when enough in pool to transfer to front with. I plan my operations with the training/replacement rate in mind. It is part of why as Japan I expand much less then other players and why I tend to fight short but violent battles in my operations.
(90 days is also about the time LCU require to prepare for new objective.)

Bottleneck avoided by not incuring 90 day penalty is not so mcuh waiting for planes as it is starting the "20 to 40 experiemce" guys on their road to growing up to be 50+ ... when 90 day ( disbanded ) units show up ... you first get their planes ( 1 day ) then get their pilots ) 1 day .. then wait for all planes to "get ready" ( i.e. be repaired ) ... then begin short hops to the "advanced" training range. Like 2-3 hops of 10 hexes each. Then 2-3 months to get up to 50-60 experience.

If you take existing, beat up daitai with 6 planes and pilots ... and fly to the rear ... and "fill up" .. thus avoiding the 90 days ... you get replacement planes and pilots within 2 days .... then start 2-3 month trek to get to 50+ ...in which case you are 90 days ahead of disband guy .... no matter what .. there will come a time ... be it 4 ... 6 .. 9 ... 12 months down the road ... when Japan must accelerate the process of converting semi-trained ... to combat ready ... air unit training. This comes at expense of maintaining a few ... 80+ experience air units at the front ... but there comes a time .. when this must be given up.

[madflava13]

Ok, this is the last time I'll say it, then I'll get out of everyone's way so they can argue this stupid point. What it seems to me is that some of you want this game to simulate the psychological effect of watching 20 of your best friends die in combat. Now I'm not a veteran and I've never served, but I can only imagine that the emotions someone in that situation feels are complex, to make the understatement of the year. I can imagine some would be more motivated next time out, others would withdraw and need serious down time to cope... What I think you are all missing is that this is a $70 game that runs on math.

There's no way on God's green earth this game will EVER simulate effectively combat losses on morale. How could it? Some of you are asking that a mathmatical formula equate to real life.

Good luck. I'll be in the other room having a beer while the rest of you spend the next few weeks asking for the impossible. [>:]

[ChezDaJez]

The pilots aren't hiding. I simply haven't asked for them yet, as you can see from the "Get New Pilot" toggle, I hope.

The planes appear automatically, you know, by "magic."

When you ask for them, the fatigue level will increase for every pilot drawn. It the squadron has only 4 pilots currently assigned, drawing an additional 32 is going to greatly increase the fatigue level of the Sentai. At least that's what I've observed during my current PBEM.

As far as planes appearing automatically, they don't. I agree with Mogami. Assuming you are within range of an HQ and have sufficient supply, they were already at the base, crated in the warehouse. Remove one of these attributes and you have a Sentai with few aircraft.

Regardless, the Sentai is basically combat ineffective for the foreseeable future. Pilots need to be retrained and aircraft repaired. Its going to take only a few days to repair the aircraft but it will be months before the pilots are adequately trained. In addition, they constitute a drain on base resources. You can't transfer them until the aircraft are repaired so they will take up valuable space that could be better used by bringing in a new squadron. You could load them on an AK if one was available and assign it a couple of escorts but that uses valuable fuel and exposes more units to potential loss.

One other thing. I think you have too many variables in your fighter sweep test. Using six different types of Alied aircraft vs 2 types of Japanese aircraft will only muddy the water and isn't going to definitively tell anyone whether its the model or a certain type of aircraft causing a problem or a combination.

Also, you should run the same tests and have the Allied fighters sweep the Jap base and see what the results are. I would also recommend starting with one Daitai/Group each and work upwards, adding a new group/Daitai after each series of tests. I would also vary the altitude. 5000, 10000, and 20000 ft levels would probably work. This should enable you to establish a "loss line" that can tell whether the loss rates are linear, expotential or whatever. It may also highlight what the major influencing factors are.

Chez

A couple of questions... What is the game time?

[mogami]

Hi, I have 14 years active duty and while I won't make claims I know that training holds units and people together. While leaders try to protect their troops the mission always comes first. If you can do the mission with no loss that is prefered if your mission requires loss to be sustained the unit absorbs the loss. Green troops fall apart without actually having suffered loss. Experianced high morale units take more loss then untrained green formations. As long as the training of the replacement is near the training of the formation they are sent to the unit retains the quality. But units will over time assume the quality of the replacements they recieve. Morale is the willingless to enter battle and remain. Fighter pilots by their very nature must be high morale persons since you can't force them to ever engage. You can't make them remain in a fight you can't make them press home the attack. To suggest that men who are fighter pilots could suffer a morale collapse in just 1 fight does not reflect understanding of their nature. (They are more likely to want revenge in an immediate rematch as they are to wail about the fate of their comrades)You have to remove most of the trained experianced men before a fighter group will suffer a morale collapse what matters most is not loss the group suffers but damage it inflicts. Fighter pilots are not chummy they are in competion with each other as well as the enemy. (notice your average grunt does not keep score)
Elite units don't think about loss while on the mission the morale changes would not be seen in the scale of WITP since they occur when the unit is off the front. The unit blows off steam and then begins training or combat again with morale restored. Thats why units have ceremonys and bars.
The danger with fighter pilots is they burn out. A human can only tolerate stress for so long before physical symptoms set in. In WITP this is more the fatigue rating. High fatigue reduces the pilots ratings. Morale is how long the group will remain before breaking off. However in WITP fatigue also reflects the condition of the aircraft. (another combat modifier) Aircraft can be ready but in bad condition. If you have groups that seem to always suffer fatigue but they have a good leader check the leader of your support group (and the groups ratings)

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

I ran across this anomaly and thought I'd share it with you.

What we see is one of the five Japanese fighter formations ordered to sweep Port Moresby the day after. While all four of this Sentai's flying mates were chewed up, this formation refused to fly.

It has, I notice, lost one plane to operational damage (how is a mystery as it didn't fly) and has also somehow picked up 2 points of fatigue. Again, how and why is a mystery.

Too funny, you have the evidence that the formation flew right in front of you, yet you state as fact that they "refused to fly".

Just because they failed to find their target does not mean they didn't fly. Obviously they did fly and either failed to find their target, or arrived at a seperate time than the rest of your groups with no enemy air to engage over their target at that time (bad coordination roll) and simply went home.

Time and again on this forum I read how people state their planes "refuse to fly", but no one mentions that sometimes formations simply fail to find their target. Just because the game doesn't post these failures in the combat report doesn't mean your planes didn't fly.

The game does show a pop-up text for some types of missions that fail to find their targets sometimes during the replay, but those seem to be rare and do not display for 100% of missions that don't find their targets as far as I can tell. Also I don't think non-bombing type missions ever display the pop-up text.

Jim

[mogami]

Hi, Thanks Jim I was going to get to that. Erik the lucky sod has twice now gotten monster tally's of Japanese bombers when the escorting fighters got lost. They flew they got tired they damaged a few of their ac but when the enemy fighters hit my bombers they were no where around. First time in Burma cost me 50+ AC (darn AVG) second time over Moresby my elite Betty/Nell Daitai were severly mauled byP39. It happens mostly in CV battles but it does happen with LBA as well.

[ChezDaJez]

I rest my boys when they get to mid 80's unless they are bomber pilots. Bomber pilots always seem to have low morale. Even when no fighters are over target.

That is probably closer to the truth than you think though I would say bomber types may have lower vice low morale when compared to fighter types. Fighter pilots are generally selected for their aggressiveness and cockiness. They typically are the type "A" personalities. It is more difficult to affect the morale of a type "A" as they tend to be egotists. Bomber pilots on the other hand, were selected more for their stability and, for want of a better word, maturity. They tend to be less aggressive and less likely to engage in risky behaviours. They are confident but that confident can be more easily shaken.

Chez

Dang, Mogami you posted yours saying the same thing while I was busy correcting my poor typing. Oh, well.