Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$

[Speedysteve]

I think its luck of the draw. Sometimes you do well others not so. Just like real life.

An example of mine.

Kaga was hit by 5 bombs. The worst she was at was 53/40/0. She took 8 days to reach port but she made it. Good old girl [8D]

[Charbroiled]

Historically, I agree "it just ain't right", and the basis of my suggestion was a little off-topic, or at least going in a different direction then the original post.

My thinking was that with two equally skilled opponents, Japan WILL lose. The allies just out produce them. My suggestion would allow Japan to go toe-to-toe without the worry of a major ship being sunk because it was sneezed on. I just seems to me (from a game stand point, not historical stand point) that the side that can't afford to lose ships is the side who's ship sink the easiest.

[crsutton]

It seems about right. Japanese carriers historically did not seem to be very effective at staying afloat.

Anyhow, I don't think it matters too much if the Japanese keep all of their carriers afloat. In the end, it is the loss of pilots that finishes them. What use is a carrier task force if it is stocked with crappy pilots and obsolete aircraft? Think about it. If Japan, had gone into 1945 without losing a single carrier or ship, would they still have had any chance against the onlaught of Allied technology and material. Nope.

It was a good rave, and stimulated some good discussion. However, I don't know if it was worth giving your opponent all that free information about your losses.[:D]

[Bradley7735]

Do you guys realize that the exact opposite point could be made from those of you who hit CVL Ryujo with 7 bombs and 3 torpedoes and she didn't sink?

One battle does not make a valid pool for deciding if Japanese damage control is too bad. In my games vs the AI, I have very rarely seen ships sink from damage that seemed too small. I remember hitting BB Hyuga with two torps off of Buna and she sank. I was VERY surprised by that. Generally, it takes a lot more hits to do them in. Other than that, ships that sink are hit by a lot of ordinance.

I personally think the game has it about right. Except for maybe allied merchants. They shouldn't get the damage control bonus (as per Ron's posts a long time ago).

my 2 cents.

[rtrapasso]

I personally think the game has it about right. Except for maybe allied merchants. They shouldn't get the damage control bonus (as per Ron's posts a long time ago).

Probably not at the beginning of the war, anyway. Later on, they made big improvements in ship construction with torpedo damage in mind - like mounting engines, etc. on heavy springs so that the shock of an explosion wouldn't do the ship in. Other improvements were also made, and the ships in the 2nd half of the war could take much more damage and survive.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Spawning carriers tends to make the Allied players care a lot less about losses.

In reality those Essex class carriers would have arrived even if the originals hadn't been sunk. The respawn feature actually pulls carriers out of the Allied side if less than the full amount allowed are sunk.

[DuckofTindalos]

I care a lot about losing one of the prewar US carriers. They get replaced, but it TAKES SO LONG. I was sweating a bit when I'd lost three of the six by mid 1942 with no appreciable dings in the Kido Butai. Things are better now by 3/43.

[doktorblood]

What build are you playing? Jap damage control in early builds was much worse. I believe the devs made Jap damage control a bit better a few updates back.

[Feinder]

I would say part of the problem of what is being considered "medium" damage.

"Medium" damage is NOT 50 out of 99. 50 damage (total float, fires, flood), will close your flight deck. A closed flight deck is NOT medium damage. 50 damamge is, "WTF am I still doing out here?!" 50 is CRIPPLED. You better set course for the nearest port at best speed.

Over 30 damage, that's "heavy" damage for me. The battle's over for you. Get home, before it's costs you more than the 6 months in the yards.

"Medium damage", to me is 15 - 20. If you're puttering your CVs around (regardless of nationality), at 20 sys damge, you're either nutts, or better have -really- good reason to be at sea (Yorktown at Midway comes to mind). But with over 20 sys damage, a SINGLE bomb or torpedo hit stands a fair chance at closing your flight deck. You're just tempting fate.

FWIW, my observation on the "pain threshold" for Japanese ships is about 35 float damage. If you've more than 35, you better find some shelter QUICK. For the Allies, it's about 55, when you're hitting 60, you better be close to a big port. It's also a good reason to not stray that far from a friendly anchorage. If you're very far forward (and not within a day's run of an anchorage), 50 float damage is much more likely to be lethal. But if you stay within a days run of someplace you can dispand, that 50 float damage is lot less worrisome (if you actually -DO- run full speed for home, and not tempt fate).

And just throw the barb back about Allies always being more careless about their carriers because the "respawn". Get over it please.
a. If you sink all the Allied carriers, you have free reign of the Pacific. There is nothing to deter you. Enjoy it.
b. If you paste the Allied carriers, that's almost 2000 points, -NOT- including the airgroups. Considering that Japan can now go wherever she likes, your allied counterpart probably won't ever see the replacement CVs, because you're going to beat him on points on January 1st, 1943.
c. The Wasp 2, Hornet 2, Yortown 2, Lex 2 are -not- included in the reinforcement track. I don't see any Japanese players complaining about about that.
d. An Allied player that loses his CVs early, because they were brought to battle early has serious strategic problems to deal with. Maybe in their first PBEM game, an Allied player will think respawn in a valid fall-back position. But anybody who has ever even started a 2nd game as Allies, realizes that losing your CVs is VERY BAD thing. NOBODY does it carelessly. Bum luck, ambushed, stupid plan, or whatever. Those are "legitimate" excuses for losing thier CVs. But I can assure you, that no experienced Allied player is thinking, "Oh well. I just lost 5 CVs. No biggie. They'll come back."

Personally, EVERY ship is important to me. Yes, I even try to save the little Flower Class Corvettes.
-F-

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Personally, EVERY ship is important to me. Yes, I even try to save the little Flower Class Corvettes.
-F-

Me too. Unfortunately, I've sunk most of the Japanese submarine fleet, so...

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

Why not level the playing field....Allow an option for "Japan Damage Control" which would allow the Japanese the same damage control that the Allies enjoy. This would be an preference option to be toggled at the start of the game. If players want "historical" play, they would leave the toggle off.

Well, if you want play balance, why not just turn "Allied Damage Control" OFF?

[Mike Scholl]

RTRAPASSO's thinking is something I could support. Historically, Japanese Damage Control wasn's as good as the Western Powers..., but their FIREFIGHTING capability was abysmally bad. Which made their carriers (with all that AvGas) very vulnerable. Once a fire took hold, a Japanese Carrier was pretty much doomed.

If you want to talk about the "Zero bonus" being justified (and it probably is), then you have to take the bad with the good. The chance to have an "on/off" switch for several of the Historical realities might be a nice way of dealing with the player agrivation. The only problem with "turning off" all the historical Japanese failings is that it also makes a farce of the victory conditions being base on winning within a time limit.

[Charbroiled]

Come on, that would be way too simple.[:'(]

I'm not sure, but doesn't the allies still have some advantage with damage control even with that toggle OFF? If not, then your correct, my suggestion is kind of irrelevant

[Nikademus]

nope.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

Come on, that would be way too simple.[:'(]

I'm not sure, but doesn't the allies still have some advantage with damage control even with that toggle OFF? If not, then your correct, my suggestion is kind of irrelevant

Don't think so, but if i'm wrong some one will chime in![:D]

[ChezDaJez]

The big difference was that the US carriers purged their avgas lines with an inert gas such as CO2 so that a broken line or hose wouldn't spray fuel all over. Reduced the flammability of the avgas lines considerably. The Japanese never learned that trick. The first time it was used during battle was at Coral Sea and was credited with saving Yorktown.

IIRC, an aircraft fueler from the USS Saratoga was credited with the idea in 1938 after a plane crashed into one of the aircraft fueling points and nearly started a huge fire because of gas trapped in the lines.

Chez

[Nikademus]

It should be mentioned in fairness that "Midway" was hardly an example of the Japanese not being able to fight fires. It was an example of what happens when bombs strike carriers with carelessly discarded ordinance and armed and fueled planes on deck....the most vulnerable point of any carrier's existance. With much of their firefighting equipment wrecked by the explosions and more ammo/planes going off fueling the intense fires....the Japanese damage control crews had a losing battle on their hands vs. the flames.

I doubt during the same period, that a US carrier struck similar would have high chances of survival. Even with latewar fine tuned US damage control on hand, the CV Franklin nearly went the same route. She was eventually saved, though she never served again. Then there was Wasp's experience.....also caught at a bad time. Only the weapon used was different.

Contrast Midway with the experiences of Shokaku and Zuikaku.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
snip...

If you want to talk about the "Zero bonus" being justified (and it probably is), then you have to take the bad with the good.

I Couldn't just let this pass:
Mike, buddy, I've followed your posts, which I thought were all pretty good but - let's not go back to "The Dreaded Zero Bonus" again!
Folks the Zero Bonus, along with their greater experiance, is .... oh jeeeze, just weak!

[racndoc]

Its all about die rolls. Im at July 1943 and I just put 8 500 lb bombs and 3 torpedoes in CVL Ryujo and she made it to port 4 days later. In fact, I have had 6 major CV vs CV combats so far and have damaged 8 CVs but so far only one IJN CV has sunk.

[Gem35]

I know I am a bit late with my posting, but I am glad the Japs lost those carriers, serves em right . [;)] I hope you kick his arse, Wolfpack.[:)][:)]