Strategic bombing by fighters

[SeaMonkey]

Daykeras,

I'm not saying you automatically get to obtain the highest level, you still have to make the investment in PPs to move up, just not at the double cost of going over the WS.

I understand there might be an advantage for one side or the other trying to raise different unit types tech levels, but the Chinese in no way have enough PPs to research even one level tech from where they start till perhaps very late in the game.

No side gets to jump to the greater level just because the WS moves up, they will be behind the level when the standard moves two turns after it has been obtained. It is now up to them to make the appropriate investment to get to the WS, which will take a few turns unless they have been keeping up, which we all try to do.

So maybe you have been keeping up in one certain category and your opponent moves that WS up one level above where your at, you will still have to pay the full cost to match him or wait two turns. What happens to the extra research PPs you've invested?????......dust in the wind.

Maybe everyone won't be in such a hurry to research up their units? Perhaps they will try a more unusual approach, opening up to tech advancement in the units that don't see it currently. Maybe each player will wait till a most opportune moment to break the WS and spring an offensive on their opponent. Perhaps some will lurk in the background, preferring to build their armed forces and get the cheap tech advancements.

[Daykeras]

I understand what you're saying...

I am not saying they will be increased to WS as soon as possible (Though I admit it looked like that from my post).

What I meant is ANY increase to unresearched things by anyone is unbalanced. So what if china goes from their 4-5 or whatever infantry to 7-7 after the Wallies or Germans hit 10-10... 7-7 is just that much more for the Japanese to deal with.

This also means that anyone researching to keep up does not get the benefit... Increasing world standard will just raise the base of a unit... So as a German I don't really care if my infantry became a 6-6 base when I had just teched to 7-7 and I'm fighting 9-9s...

[SeaMonkey]

So as a German I don't really care if my infantry became a 6-6 base when I had just teched to 7-7 and I'm fighting 9-9s...

Huh?? Okay Daykeras, very slowly, follow me here.....how can the base WS be 6-6 if someone has 9-9s? It would take more than two turns to tech even a 7-7 to a 9-9 and then the WS would be 9-9 two turns later. If you're the pioneering tech side researching over the WS you are paying twice the price, the sides that follow you after two turns get to research at the normal cost up to the new WS.

Oh and explain to me when you've ever played a game where the Chinese were able to research any category of anything from 4-5 to 7-7?

[aletoledo]

bottom line, raising the world standard will just end up making things cheaper for the leader. instead of 9/9 infantry and 11/11 tanks, we'll max out at 10/10 infantry and 12/12 tanks if the WS is raised.

WS makes it cheaper to research, but I'm not sure if anyone is complaining about the cost, but rather the speed of research is what people want when they're behind.

[Daykeras]

Thanks aletoledo. That'a a lot to do with what I meant.

[SeaMonkey]

WS makes it cheaper to research, but I'm not sure if anyone is complaining about the cost, but rather the speed of research is what people want when they're behind

And that is exactly what has been proposed by raising the WS.

Aletoledo, the leader pays more, he is the pioneer and pays twice the usual research to go above the WS, the game then resets two turns later to that newly attained WS. The players that are behind then pay the normal amount to move up to that level.

Is this that hard to understand?

If you're refering to the ability to reach a new level in game turns irregardless of the cost, I see your point on speed, but only the WA have that luxury, as it should be.

Maybe the maximum amount of research flasks allowed to be designated to any one category should be limited to 3 per turn. This would effectively double the amount of game time to research a level above the WS, allowing the behind players to pay half the cost in half the time.

[Daykeras]

Wait... wait... so you're saying this does NOT help if you've already researched past a point?

Increasing World Standard doesn't make it cheaper to reach the next lvl.

So going from 6 to 7 if you started at 5 as it is if you started at 6...

What you're proposing doesn't help anything and only hinders Japan as China starts to get free buffs.

[SeaMonkey]

Ok Daykeras, let me get my blackboard.[:D]

Let's say that the WS for infantry evasion is 6. Everyone is at 6, including the Chinese, just for this example.

The Axis decide to go to level 7 and they have 5 inf units so it takes 12 research flasks or PPs to get there.

Everyone else hangs back or dabbles with a few allocated PPs but without the conviction of the Axis. Maybe they decide to research the counter, like Artillery LA.

Anyway after the 3 turns or so the Axis have reached that level of 7 for Infantry evasion. Now everyone sees that. If they had dabbled to 6 invested flasks, all they would have to do is wait two turns and they would automatically get the next level because the WS would be elevated to 7(they are at L6 with 6 flasks invested assuming they have 5 inf units). If they had more than 6 invested, they could choose to make the same commitment as the Axis and obtain that same 7 level and not have to wait two turns. If they don't, say they stop with 8 invested flasks(because they see the Axis 7 level), in two turns they get that 7 level but lose those 2 extra flasks.

Now the new WS is 7, for Inf EV, two turns after the Axis got it, but you have to make the normal 6 flask investment(not 12) if you have 5 inf units and are at the 6 inf EV level to get to 7.

Is the picture clarifying......and guess what, the Chinese do not get a free "buff", they still have to invest a minimum of 6 PPs or Flasks to get to that level. Like I said, you have seen the Chinese make an investment in research like that in games before, right?

I'm curious Daykeras,...why the infatuation with the Chinese, ...do they give your Japanese a hard time? [;)]

[a511]

i think we understand that no power will get the free "buff" by just raising the WS. however, as pt out by aletoledo, a higher WS makes research cheaper, i.e. u can pay less PP to get ur 9-9 super infantry. i know the speed of research is more or less the same for the super infantry research, but with cheaper cost, that encourage WA to make "super-everything", as they got more idle PP to spend ... and its a nightmare for the Axis players ...

as mentioned in some earlier threads, speed instead of cost is the heart of the problem. feel free to check my post in the "A modest suggestion" thread regarding my suggestion on decreasing the max research pt to spend per tech per turn for research over WS to see if that helps.

AN

[SeaMonkey]

I read your post a511 and agree. Again I agree that raising the WS makes everything cheaper, but its relative, its cheaper for everyone, at least if their maneuvering is superior. So if your the power that is constantly researching and attaining the next level over WS(ie. resetting to a new WS) then it is not cheaper for you to research then it is now.

So the WA have the advantage with more idle PPs at their disposal, they have that now. So the argument is that it will compound the problem, right? Perhaps.

Being relative, all the players are aware of that fact, so what is their most likely path of action? If I was the Axis, I might choose to research a number of different categories up to 5 flasks, that are at the level just above WS not quite triggering that next level. Maybe produce more of those units and add a flask here or there in anticipation of my opponent or partner achieving the level above WS.

And then what? Who has the most disposable income? Who is the most likely leader/pioneer for researching over the WS? What will they research? Ever heard the cliche' "He who has the most, spends the most". Who is most likely to reap the benefits of the cheaper catch up cost? Perhaps the poor?

Ah yes, but there is a consequence....the two turn lapse. How would that be exploited?

One thing I do think would help the resourcefulness of play is a less disclosing FoW feature. Players shouldn't necessarily know if a certain unit has reached elevated tech levels unless they have been involved in combat or they are in an adjacent territory.

The number of units/types should also be somewhat obscured so that the belligerents are unaware of what is being produced or is deployed unless of course they are adjacent to those territories.

There would be more importance attached to reconnaissance and defenses to negate those enemy recon missions.

[Daykeras]

I guess I have a hard time seeing it your way since I know that the second you change the world standard they all jump up a level.

So what you are actually proposing isn't a change to world standard (though you'd use the world standard going up as your basis for cheaper research) but a sliding research cost scale based on the highest level attained in a given stat.

The problem is not only is that hard coded, it is also unrealistic.

Putting aside the fact the WA or someone else gets really cheap research, or maybe the same cost as before, the fact remains when you change the world standard to 5 they ALL go to 5 instantly. And I am also very sure World Standard isn't exactly a stat to just change. I could be wrong, but when they say world standard in the patch notes I think of them just increasing them all by hand to 5 instead of changing "World Standard Infantry Evasion 5."

So even if there is this world standard stat that was easily manipulated (not that coding in a change to all nations' stat would be hard) you'd still have that instant increase.

That's what I've been saying, and I see now where the problem was in our communications. I am seeing it as an instant change (which is how the game is built currently). You're proposing a code change. So the way the game is now if someone attempted to modify this (and I'm sure you could using XML and a little help from a developer) to help play it and test it, or show you it's ridiculous, you would have an instant change 2 rounds later making all your research useless and/or giving free upgrades to countries that don't need them or would be unbalanced getting them.

I use the chinese as an example because they generally never get invaded (inland of course) so their production is 1 out of 3 turns. Using your world standard the way the game is currently built (and the way I understand it as being built. I could be wrong) they would then be getting insta upgrades to their infantry. So 2 turns after the WA get 9-9 the chinese would be at 7-7 (if you make it a 2 level gap). I don't know about you Japanese players, but my infantry are rarely up beyond 7-7 or 8-8, so if what little minor force I have in China are only 7-7s and are mixed with militia the Chinese would suddenly pose a real threat. I don't know about the rest of you, But when I play Japan I can barely hold the WA at bay for a few turns, let alone be able to shift troops to take out china... again.

Now if we do it your way, which means code changes, and if we allow for the WA not to get the bonuses then all this means is Germany gets 0 help since they cannot afford a 2 turn difference in research. As it is Germany is way behind the WA by the time the WA churns out 9-9 or 10-10 infantry, and even with a low handed tactic like killing your own troops the Germans are already 2 or more turns behind the WA in reaching 8-8 or 9-9. So your help does not help, unless it lows production cost for getting to 8-8 as Germany at the cost of time.

Now I know Germany is usually pressed for resources, but I am pretty sure the problem is not cost of research but the speed at which the WA can reach these super troops. 9-9s in 1943 is too soon. It's nice and all that Germany may or may not be able to get 9-9s 2 turns later, but the fact remains infantry (or any unit) should not be at 9-9 by 1943, and doubly so when that nation has the largest production and resources in the game. So what if Germany has 9-9s in the beginning of 1944. All that means is the WA, who is already producing too many of them, has 2 more turns to churn out more.

That's what I meant to say, and I finally figured out how.

[JanSorensen]

Daykares

Based on your posts I dont think you have understood the game mechanics involved.

Lets take the example with INF evasion - and make a possible timeline.

Spr 40: WS =6, WA = 6, CHI = 4
Spr 41: WS= 6, WA = 7, CHI = 4 (the WA have paid enough to make its evasion to 7)
Fal 41: WS = 7, WA = 7, CHI = 4 (2 turns later the WS goes up)
Sum 42: WS = 7, WA = 8, CHI = 4 (again, the WA has invested enough to go from 7 to 8)
Win 43: WS = 8, WA = 8, CHI = 4 (and 2 turns later the WS goes up)

Note the trend. As China does not invest any production into reseaching INF evasion its value will not change at all for China. The fact that the WS goes up only ever effects nations that are above or on the current WS.

So, the suggestion would make it cheaper to catch up - which I suppose is good enough. The problem is that it would also make it cheaper to continue raising the stat for the leader of the pack. Thus the overall effect is quite a bit less clear. One thing is for certain though - it would not change one bit with respect to Chinese research as they are already and forever well below the WS.

[dobeln]

This is at the core an issue of the balance between quality (I.e. research) and quantity (I.e. production). This can be changed on the system level, which in my opinion would be preferable to the constant nerfing of the "flavor of the month" superunit.

I would suggest some mechanism that would give some further combat bonus for superior quantity, perhaps the possibility of a second evasion decrease if the unit is fired upon more than once. (Or some other change achieving the same effect)

[Daykeras]

So there is in fact a world standard stat that can be edited and changed? As far as I could tell, and I didn't really look, you can only edit the stat of a particular unit. The way I am seeing it, and I suppose I am wrong, is by increasing "World Standard" you increase all units to that level that aren't already there.

I mean, isn't that what world standard is about? If the world standard is 10 then shouldn't all units be at 10 for that stat?

And where can I find this world standard stat? Does this stat not directly change the starting level of a stat, only its cost to get to the next level?

[JanSorensen]

ORIGINAL: Daykeras

So there is in fact a world standard stat that can be edited and changed? As far as I could tell, and I didn't really look, you can only edit the stat of a particular unit. The way I am seeing it, and I suppose I am wrong, is by increasing "World Standard" you increase all units to that level that aren't already there.

I mean, isn't that what world standard is about? If the world standard is 10 then shouldn't all units be at 10 for that stat?

And where can I find this world standard stat? Does this stat not directly change the starting level of a stat, only its cost to get to the next level?

Rule 9.6 on page 87 of the electronic rule book should explain what World Standard does. As I said above - you misunderstood what it does leading to noone understanding a word you have been posting

[Daykeras]

Ah, well that would explain it.

But that still leaves the trouble of the WA also getting the bonus.

[JanSorensen]

I forgot to add. If you want to modify the WS its in the baseline.txt file.

[Daykeras]

<3

[SeaMonkey]

Nice try Jan, but I still don't think he's got it.

Anyway, I give up...time to play!

[Daykeras]

I got it, I got it.

Now my question is how to deal with the WA getting the bonus as well. Do we just disable it for the person who has the highest stat in a given instance?

And even if we do how does this solve the speed issue of WA getting 9-9s in 43, or stop strategic bombing or slow down the growth of super units? At best I am now seeing it just keeps the gap down to 2 turns, which is enough to invade and/or ruin a supply line.

All I'm saying is this is not the solution.