Attack on the USSR

[moses]

Which brings me (against my better instincts) back to my comments about Industrial what if's.

Germany, and to a lessor extent Japan, put their faith in high quality weapons systems. The allies relied on mass-production weapons. In 1939 the jury was still out as to which method was best. By 1944 the verdict was in. Mass production was proven to be superior over the long haul. The axis eventually tried to adjust but as they considered themselves to be winning until probably mid to late 42 they had little impetus to change until after it was too late.

Cultural considerations determined to a great extent how German leaders viewed production, still had a couple influential Germans come to the correct conclusions regarding mass production earlier in the war things might have been much more difficult for the allies.

[spence]

High quality tanks??? Japan??? TOO MUCH SAKI MOSES[;)]

[moses]

Not high quality tanks, and of course I mentioned Japan only tangentally, hence the words "to a lessor extent Japan".

Still Japan did not embrase mass production and instead hoped to succeed through higher quality pilots and seaman.

I don't think they ever modernized their army to any great extent as that was probably beyond their means. Perhaps they thought equipment didn't matter as superior morale would prevail.

[dtravel]

In Japan's case, they "chose" to believe that "superior morale" could overcome superior numbers (and even superior equipment) because they had no choice. There was no way, ever, in any way, shape or form, in even a single piece of equipment, that Japan was going to outproduce the US. They knew that. They just did not want to admit it and they didn't like the inevitable conclusion of that fact so had to come up with some mental trick that would allow them to believe they could out-fight the US and win. So they allowed themselves to think that "greater dedication to a morally superior purpose" would mystically let them defeat an enemy who could literally bury their entire country with its industrial output.

(And just to add some napalm to the discussion, I will point out that in many ways this parallels the thinking behind many current terrorist organizations.)

Germany had a larger industrial base to begin with and could use it to maintain a technological advantage in some areas. Japan lacked the industrial capacity to maintain what (relatively few) tech advantages she started the war with.

[moses]

ohhh terrorists. Napalm to be sure!![:-] Let me add a little to that.

In ten years historians will say one of the following.

1.) The Iraqi insugent victory was inevitable.

2.) The Iraqi terrorists were inevitably doomed to defeat.

3.) Stalemate in Iraq was inevitable.

Anyone who disagrees that the historical outcome was inevitable will be simply shown what happened historically. Therefore the case is proven.


Agree with you on Japan. I think the firepower vs. morale debate was pretty much settled by end of WWI if not earlier.

[testarossa]

ORIGINAL: moses
Agree with you on Japan. I think the firepower vs. morale debate was pretty much settled by end of WWI if not earlier.

During Anglo-Boer War I think.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: testarossa

ORIGINAL: moses
Agree with you on Japan. I think the firepower vs. morale debate was pretty much settled by end of WWI if not earlier.

During Anglo-Boer War I think.

How about US Civil War?

[SGT Swanson]

Just to add my two pence, There are reasons Japan didn't invade historicaly. One of them was the pact. Another was having to keep a garrison in Manchuria (if you look at a base or unit?). Open the base up and you will see a garrison value and how much IS currently stationed there. Now, I don't know how much an individual unit contributes to the garrison figure, but at the begining of the war they are over what they need to keep the population happy and respectfull.

So, if Manchuria is required to have a garrison, and you need Oil & Resources to keep your war machine going strong, then when and with what will you use to invade with? Oh, and need I forget, Gen. Chuchov (spelling) the defender of Stalingrad fame was transfered out there in '39 and was transfered back west to command the 62nd Army in the summer of '42. He had asked for and got permission to transfer 5 DIVISIONS from his old command (Far East), because he knew they would fight for him. And these were 5 divisions of Sibearians no less. Now, as the Axis player, do you really want to go up against him? If so, then set it up as a regular game and I'll take the Russians any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Rainerle]

Hi,
Manchuria doesn't need a garrison !
As for the composition of the Red Army in the far east:
A long time ago someone with insight into the Soviet OOB (Subchaser or Oleg ?)mentioned that in late 1941 those Soviet forces existed mainly on paper in order to discourage any japanese ambitions but of course this person was soon silenced by loud crys of anguish of those players who widely oppose any move of a japanese player into the USSR. I myself know few things about this but I find it highly interesting that top of the line equipment (T-34, KV-I, Yak fighters etc.) should be at the far east (i.e. in the WitP game) when the on the other hand the soviets have to fight with obsolete stuff BT-7, T-26, I-15, I-16 etc.) in the west against the germans (and the outcome of this battle was not clear to anyone). Therefore saying that any invasion of japan was doomed to failure like 1937 is comparing apples with oranges it just wasn't the same red army anymore.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

Hi,
Manchuria doesn't need a garrison !
As for the composition of the Red Army in the far east:
A long time ago someone with insight into the Soviet OOB (Subchaser or Oleg ?)mentioned that in late 1941 those Soviet forces existed mainly on paper in order to discourage any japanese ambitions but of course this person was soon silenced by loud crys of anguish of those players who widely oppose any move of a japanese player into the USSR. I myself know few things about this but I find it highly interesting that top of the line equipment (T-34, KV-I, Yak fighters etc.) should be at the far east (i.e. in the WitP game) when the on the other hand the soviets have to fight with obsolete stuff BT-7, T-26, I-15, I-16 etc.) in the west against the germans (and the outcome of this battle was not clear to anyone). Therefore saying that any invasion of japan was doomed to failure like 1937 is comparing apples with oranges it just wasn't the same red army anymore.

Hi,

that is not completely true. Matrix used the June 1941 OOB for Soviet forces in WITP. Many formations were withdrawn to Europe by December, but some experienced formations remained and it seems that these kept the Soviet April 1941 TOE (very strong). These formations remained in the Far East until 1945 and eventually participated in August Storm. And the Soviets raised new divisions (including two tank divisions, and one of these oddly existed until 1945) to replace the one that had been transferred to Europe. There were also some new tank brigades formed (containing KV and T-34). And it seems that some divisions were transferred from Europe to the Far East in 1942 and 1943. Last thing: Matrix did not include formations that were under command of Trans Baikal Front and Mongolian formations under Soviet command.

K

[Rainerle]

Hi,
I know that those units existed on paper. But the complaint of afore mentioned person (who was then cried down) was that those units were at all times far away from being full-strength.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

Hi,
I know that those units existed on paper. But the complaint of afore mentioned person (who was then cried down) was that those units were at all times far away from being full-strength.

This seems unlikely in the case of the pre-war units. The Soviets mostly used their infantry units until they were worn out due to combat attrition instead of diverting soldiers and equipment from them to other (newly formed or depleted) formations. And the divisions in the Far East had been (kind of) elite units before the war and always been at war footing due to the "problems" with Japan.

The newly formed tank brigades were formed under war TOE's (and thus were rather battalion-sized formations by Western standards) and it seems unlikely that they received old equipment because they would have been strange (and completely useless) formations if that would have been the case.

[Feinder]

I certainly don't know anything beyond the historical records, but simply saying, "I don't believe the documentation." rather closes the discussion. "The documentation" is all we have. This isn't counter-intel being spun by a war ministry during a time of war. It is documentation by the powers that be, after the war is over.

I'm sure that the other poster that you refer to must have made some seriously in-depth research, which is great (exactly what is needed). But I'd be very interested to see it.

-F-

[moses]

While we argue about whether a Japanese invasion of Russia should be impossible or just very difficult we should remember that in the game Japan is able to easily defeat Russia in a short bloodless campaign.

Unless someone is willing to argue the position that this is as it should be, there seems no need to even look at documentation.

[Feinder]

ORIGINAL: moses

While we argue about whether a Japanese invasion of Japan should be impossible or just very difficult ...

Wouldn't be too difficult, I should think...

[;)]

-F-

[moses]

oopps. I went back and fixed that.

[6971grunt]

ORIGINAL: moses

While we argue about whether a Japanese invasion of Russia should be impossible or just very difficult we should remember that in the game Japan is able to easily defeat Russia in a short bloodless campaign.

Unless someone is willing to argue the position that this is as it should be, there seems no need to even look at documentation.

I agree [&o] - In WiTP, the Soviet Army in the Far East can be beaten [they can't replace units that are destroyed with like units] and the resources/oil used by Japan. Then Manchurian Garrison number appears only for the purpose of Soviet activation -

While others caution against a winter campaign, one must remember that the Japanese have "owned" Manchuria for nearly ten years - enough time to become accustome to this harsh enviornment [men and equipment][&:]?

Anyway, this discussion was meant to be addressed from the present confines of the game system [whatever we may think of it].

[John 3rd]

Moses referenced me in our campaign about this...ahhhhhhhh....discussion and I thought that I might jump in.

The whole land-based combat part of this game seems to be woefully done. In the hands of a competent player, they can easily defeat their opponent. This happens regardless of which side you are playing. In my game with Moses, he is playing the Chinese and against a decent (read--STEEP learning curve for me!) opponent he has destroyed the Japanese army. Could that have happened in real life? NO! I wager if we switched sides, the same thing would happen in reverse. Is that real? NO!

Japan having any real chance of winning in Russia??? NO! The simple fact that these things are possible speaks of an issue within game mechanics and construction. The game code should be re-written and/or changed. Is that going to happen? NO! Seems to me, the smartest move is to simply 'turn off' Japan vs. China/Japan vs. Russia as a possiblity.

I believe that the game is entitled...War in the Pacific. My .02...

[hawker]

If you want to see how war in Russia looks like see my AAR vs GH.Soon,you will see how Japan gets easy points in Russia.[8D]

[AmiralLaurent]

I played a test match vs moses, where he invaded Russia with 10 more divisions from China/South Army. I think it was in version v1.4 but the current version may be bloodiest for Japan, as many frontiers are river and so units may come in two days and be disrupted one after the other. Also shock attack are now bloodiest for the attacker.

My strategy as a Soviet was to invade Manchuria from Iman and it worked almost. The Soviet Army was finally defeated in front of Harbin but most of it was then here.

The WITP model is way off in the hability to do a blitzkrieg in Siberia. Even if there is a rail line, there is and was scarcely any road and any army will have to advance slowly in this theater, during winter but most of it during spring (when the snow melts and everything is muddy or flooded).

Another problem is the initial position of the Soviet Army, it may be accurate but in RL, Soviet units along the border will probably march to the railroad farther than Japanese advanding over the frontier. In WITP Japan will probably take Vladivostok before the divisions NW of it will move one hex.
It is the same problem as for China. The OOB may be more or less equilibrated, but the initial placement is allowing Japan much more things than its enemies.