Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

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Bradley7735
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by Bradley7735 »

ORIGINAL: madmickey

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
If you opened the valve before moving the funnel, the outrush of air could do real damage to any body part that was close enough to get caught.

Well, I think we can safely assume that a crewmember standing near a small shrapnel hole suddenly inflicted on the aircraft was unlikely to have his, err, organ dangling out there unless he happened to be using the urinal at the time. [X(]
agreed. and I brought up the Goldfinger comment because most people who watched the movie think that a pistol shot in a plane would cause a plane to crash.

and for the time to equalize the pressure to be measured in minutes, not a fraction of a second. I always love the airplane and space movies where it takes 10 minutes for all the air to escape the compartment. People holding on to hand rails for long periods of time. If the hole is big enough, it only takes a second.[8|]

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Feinder
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by Feinder »

Some answers to questions posed -

1. How is fatigue figured? Basically 1.5 fatigue per hex travelled. So one hex out and back = 3 fatigue. It's fairly linear. Your shorter ranged bombers will always have lower fatigue, because their mission ranges are shorter. CAP fighters usually have fairly low fatigue, because they don't go very far.

2. Does WitP handle the fatigue reduction modifications for B-29s or 4e bombers? No.

3. If you changed the DB to remove the guns, and increase the payload, would this affect fatigue? No.

4. Is are the incendaries used by B-29s modeled in WitP? Yes, and no. There are incendiary cluster bombs in the DB (100# and 400# variety as I recall). However
a. They are not set as payload for any bombers in WitP, so they're not used in WitP.
b. They are rated exactly the same as GP bombs. As in, their effect is 100 and 400; just like a 500# GP bomb has a rating of 500. They would likely be treated just like an 400# GP bomb.
c. It is possible, altho unlikely (IMO), that there is special hard-coding for the two ICB (cluster) devices in WitP that would allow them to be more damaging to strat targets. But frankly, I doubt it. It is on my list to test for curiousity's sake however.
d. The B-29s used the M-69 cluster bomb. It was actually a cluster of bomblets each weighing 6#, with 38 in a container. B-29 carried 37 M-69s. I WitP terms, the device would weigh 238# (so we'll call it 250#). Since WitP would equate the effect rating at 250 (just like a 250# GP bomb), it is also my intent to test with 40x 250# bombs. I'll be interested to see if lowering the effect rating (boom) has any affect on the amount of damage caused (since the current payload is 40x 500#). I also intend to test with a payload of 6# x 1046 (using the bomblets individually). Not sure if this will work tho, either the effect rating of 6 may be too small, or the payload of 1046 may be too large. Again, for future tests.

-F-


*** The reason I'm using 6000' for my tests is
a. Best accuracy
b. Was height used for the bulk of the historical missions (actualy 5k), after they found out Jet Stream = Bad for accuracy.
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AmiralLaurent
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by AmiralLaurent »

I think the test should be done with day raids at 15000-20000 feet and night raids at 5000. But as I said: 'if I'm not pleased with them, I can do them on my own'. So no more critics.

About the score "not being right" as Feinder said, it is. I had the same problem in a game and then realized that my score was 2 * (centers shown hit) + 2, or 2 * (center shown hit + 1). What happens is that one center get repaired after the bombing and before the end of the turn, so the score is confirmed as 2 per center hit.

As for strategic bombing being useless, I disagree strongly. Using 100 B-29 at night in the above test conditions will score roughly 406 points in 4 raids (one with no bomber over the target). I doubt that Japanese defenses will change it much at night. And fatigue will allow a raid every two days, so with weather you can hope to have a raid every 3 days. That means that each B-29 will score 10 points per month on strategic bombing. On a regular basis. I don't see how you can score so much points by bombing something else.

Day raids are more profitable, with 3 points scored in these tests for each (available) bomber per raid. But there opposition may change a lot of things. I think this can be done at this altitude to crush small Japanese cities.

Oh, someone asked if bombing may destroy industry or centers. The answer is no. Only firestorms may.
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by mdiehl »

I always love the airplane and space movies where it takes 10 minutes for all the air to escape the compartment. People holding on to hand rails for long periods of time. If the hole is big enough, it only takes a second.


Ya know, now that you mention it, it does seem to me that Ellen Ripley made unusually effective use of airlocks. [:D]
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Feinder
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by Feinder »

But there opposition may change a lot of things.

Whoah Hoss!

Let me finish the base-line tests first! [;)]

Yes, I -eventually- plan to do "opposed tests". And "more realistic conditions" scenarios will yield VASTLY lower results

a. Even in la-la land (no opposition), You CAN'T fly you bombers and get results like that every day. Those fatigue retings will either keep you on the ground, or kill you quick. You can p_ss away about 10 fatigue a day. Which mean you can realisticly fly in WitP, about 3 or 4 of those long range (20 hex) missions in 2 weeks. So you CAN'T achieve those results every day.
b. Flak makes a difference (my initial tests had Flak, but I needed a base-line, so I took it out). In Tokyo (my target), there are about 8 units with Flak (CDs, BFs, AAA, and even a Div. with Flak); so there is quite a bit. Top of my head (I didn't record anything), that (large) amount of Flak, turned back about 10% of the bombers.
c. Fighters will kick you ass. Even the sucky ones. Just ask Ollie (see my other "somewhat inflamatory" thread about the fairy princess). Crappy pilots in crappy planes were shooting down about 2:1 bombers (as in, he loses 2 bombers, for each of my fighters). Probably 10 - 15% destroyed per mission. And, another probably 60% damaged; as in, only about 15% of his bombers were even dropping, let alone (not) hitting the target.

There is NO WAY you could achieve these results in a "real" game.

-F-
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madmickey
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by madmickey »

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Some answers to questions posed -

3. If you changed the DB to remove the guns, and increase the payload, would this affect fatigue? No.


-F-

Removing the gun would increase space for the crew to move around decreasing crew fatigue. Flying at lower altitudes would decrease the pilot effort dealing with Jet stream.

"With the extra room inside resulting from the removal of gun turrets, the 15-16 hour missions ahead will not be so tiring because we can get up and move around. We are excited and proud to have been selected to crew this remarkable airplane."http://home.att.net/~sallyann2/last-mission.html

In addition from same article.
"We can deliver more than 20,000 pounds of bombs to most targets in Japan. Reducing the bombload slightly will allow us to reach any target in Japan from our base on Guam." I assume that this is with 500 GP bomb. 500 * 40 bomb =20,000
M-69 cluster bomb would be less dense than a 500 GP bomb. 38 M69 (38*37*6) would contain 8436 lbs of incendiary. This may not include the weight of bomb casing. But it seems that B-29 was limited to 40 bombs and total weight of bombs was not the limiting factor.
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Feinder
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by Feinder »

I was talking about reducing the guns in the WitP DB. As you said, this helps in real life. But I was talking about if, I made the change to the WitP DB (database). But reducing the guns, it would in no way help to reduce fatigue in game, since it is directly proportionate to distance travelled, and has nothing to with the ratings of the aircraft.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

-F-
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rtrapasso
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by rtrapasso »

Removing the gun would increase space for the crew to move around decreasing crew fatigue. Flying at lower altitudes would decrease the pilot effort dealing with Jet stream.

IRL - yes. In the game - no. E-crew doesn't need to move around a lot.[:'(]

EDIT - Whoops - Feinder beat me to it!
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by madmickey »

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I was talking about reducing the guns in the WitP DB. As you said, this helps in real life. But I was talking about if, I made the change to the WitP DB (database). But reducing the guns, it would in no way help to reduce fatigue in game, since it is directly proportionate to distance travelled, and has nothing to with the ratings of the aircraft.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

-F-
Actually I am in a TristanJohn, Ron, Pasternaski. Mdiehl
etc mood (I am a poor substitute for these guy) pushing for improvement in historical accuracy in any future WITP II. Of course my eyes are starting to go blurry. I hate white screens.
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by ADavidB »

There is NO WAY you could achieve these results in a "real" game.

Skip bombing with B-29s is sounding better and better with every test...[;)]

Dave Baranyi
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rtrapasso
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by rtrapasso »

ORIGINAL: ADavidB
There is NO WAY you could achieve these results in a "real" game.

Skip bombing with B-29s is sounding better and better with every test...[;)]

Dave Baranyi

LOL!![:D]
madmickey
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by madmickey »

Actually it would nice if B-29 were able to be upgraded like warships in 1945 to allow greater range (Japan would be in normal bomber range no extra penalty) using the correct amount of incendiary bombs on Night raids with the advantage of bombing radar. Upgrade means not a new plane just change the characteristics in the proper time frame. These characteristics can be reversed also using the appropriate time frame.
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by mogami »

Hi, Madmickey how far into game are you now where your having problems bombing Japan?
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Feinder
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by Feinder »

The upgrade is a good idea, but WitP would handle it as a new plane.

Not really a big deal tho, since there are avaiable slots, and you're not trying to put it on an aircraft carrier (wouldn't that be fun!). The correct cluster bombs would also be an addtional "device" to the DB (altho I don't know how to rate them, which is part of the purpose of these tests.

-F-
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ChezDaJez
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by ChezDaJez »

I doubt that explosive decompression was a serious problem. The pressure differential between sea level and 30,000 feet was not enough to inflict most of the problems of which you speak. Certainly not enough to cause structural damage or damage to internal organs in most people under most circumstances. Ruptured eardrums maybe but that depends on whether the cabin pressure was a full 1 atomosphere (which I doubt). Unconsciousness was only likely if the auxiliary oxy lines and the backup oxy bottles also failed.

You obviously have never experienced one. You need to do some research before making uninformed comments. Most aircraft are pressurized to approximately 5000 feet as was the plane I had mine on.

I experienced explosive decompression in a P-3 at 16000 when an EDC valve malfunctioned and dumped the cabin pressure within 2-3 seconds. Technically, it was more a rapid decompression but it still hurt. The cabin suddenly filled with fog and mist along with a very loud roar, papers and the like blowing around, my ears immediately blocked causing immense pain but at least the eardrums didn't burst and I had very painful stomach cramps from gas expansion. The rest of the crew had similar experiences. Had we been higher, there would have been a real danger of hypoxia, burst eardrums and a good chance of incapacitation due to lack of oxygen or lung rupture. BTW, once an aircrewman has a burst eardrum, he can no longer fly.

Only after we descended to less than 8000 feet did the pain diminish.

Here is some info for you to digest. I'm sure you can find more on the web. I'll even let you counter with the Mythbusters test just so I can rip that one apart too.

Explosive decompression
To alleviate many of the physiological problems caused by high-altitude flight in non-pressurized aircraft, America deployed its first pressurized bomber in the spring of 1944 (B-29 Superfortress) in the Pacific theater. Pressurized flight, however, created a new problem; namely, it was unknown how aircrews would respond to explosive decompression (ED) at high-altitude following structural failure of the pressure cabin. If they survived rapid decompression at 35,000 feet, how long did they have to don their oxygen masks before succumbing to hypoxia? Would the incidence of DCS increase? What was the greatest pressure differential that could be safely used to minimize DCS? What were the physical forces during ED that resulted from different types of gunfire damage, and was the wind blast during decompression great enough to inflict physical injury? Using a variety of ingenious methods, including combinations of altitude chambers and ‘parasite’ chambers, a modified fighter cockpit (see above photo, Wright Field, 1943) and pressure suits, experiments on animals and humans determined that varying rates of ED, beginning with a cabin pressure differential of 6.55 p.s.i., were survivable as long as the glottis remained open during rapid decompression. Transient changes in breathing (decrease), blood pressure (decrease) and intracranial pressure (increase) occurred during decompression, causing non-life threatening micro-hemorrhages in the lung and brain at the greatest rates of ED. Wind blasts reaching 145 m.p.h. inside the B-29’s interior injured aviators and forcefully ejected crewmen out of the opening created in the ruptured fuselage. DCS often occurred following ED, but the incidence was no greater than what occurred in active airmen flying in non-pressurized aircraft who ascended to similar altitudes.

NOTE: DCS = decompression sickness, ED = explosive decompression

This one from US Air Force studies at the following link: USAF decompression study
With this resurgent drive to altitude, a new problem grew in seriousness: explosive decompression. This had occurred occasionally during B-29 operations against Japan, typified by the blowing out of windows, bubbles, and hatches, sometimes with fatal results for a nearby crewman. But in the jet era, such decompression could be fatal to an entire airplane and its crew, as evidenced by the tragedy of the world’s first production jet airliner, the De Havilland Comet. A series of accidents claimed dozens of lives, and were eventually traced to structural failure leading to decompression and then the literally explosive disintegration of the fuselage.

And here is a story of a B-29 crewman sucked out of the plane during explosive decompression.

40th Bomb Group

So now you can go ahead and say that explosive decompression wasn't dangerous.

Chez
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ChezDaJez
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by ChezDaJez »

This dental thing sounds like a similar scheme.

Actually, the services are very didligent when it comes to dental work as there is a chance of losing a filling during decompression. More common were the toothaches caused by air bubbles underneath the filling during a normal flight without decompression.

Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
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ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
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rtrapasso
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by rtrapasso »

Actually, the services are very didligent when it comes to dental work as there is a chance of losing a filling during decompression. More common were the toothaches caused by air bubbles underneath the filling during a normal flight without decompression.

Interesting - i would think the constant toothache would be the main reason (decreasing flight crew effectiveness on EVERY unpressurized mission) rather than the risk of filling loss (which i would guess would be *relatively* minor compared to "instant bends", ruptured eardrums, etc.)
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by mdiehl »

You obviously have never experienced one. You need to do some research before making uninformed comments. Most aircraft are pressurized to approximately 5000 feet as was the plane I had mine on.


I've done the research. It's quoted above. During WW2 the tests indicated that explosive decompression was unlikely to be a substantial problem. During WW2 the tests indicated that internal organ damage was not a likely consequence. During WW2 the tests indicated that substantial structural damage was NOT a consequence. And you need to be a little less obnoxius and read that which I wrote (which includes the link and the text of the medical research article of which you quoted one small part).

I did not say it wasn't dangerous. I said it wasn't "catastrophic" which is the word you used. I also said it was not *likely* to cause substantial problems apart from the rare oddity that someone had something unusual happen. I was correct. Your original claim was I quote:
If the plane took battle damage to the cabin, there was often explosive decompression that could be catastrophic at altitude. Burst eardrums, ruptured intestines, loss of consciousness and more were all possibilities not too mention the ever present possibility of loss of structual integrity.

There was no documented instance in ANY test of "loss of structural integrity" causing "catastrophic" effects. If you meant a plane could be damaged you are correct. If you meant a plane would disintigrate a la "Goldfinger" it has been pointed out by others apart from myself that the claim is not supported by any data. I'm guessing that this could happen at higher altitudes and in faster aircraft, but it has been noted that even the Aloha airlines 737 was not destroyed. And that decompress was at airspeeds higher than any B-29 flew and at altitude greater than any B-29 flew.

If you meant that some crew members could sometimes suffer debilitating effects you'd be correct. The study that we both cited supports that claim. But "debilitating effects" <> "catastrophic" effects. The distinction is important. It would seem on face value that you were greatly exaggerating the effects. Or perhaps your life is full of petty "catastrophes."

If you would care to do a little research on your own, you'd find out that your nonlethal, noncatastrophic, non-plane-killing experience was typical. You'd also discover that the B-29 had separate pressurized compartments so that a depress of either the fore or aft section or the midsection tunnel did not affect the other compartments. Finally, you'd discover that depress did in fact occur on numerous occasions on B29s in combat and excepting the ONE incident that you mentioned (where substantial structural damage was inflicted by an exploding shell) there are no accounts of crewmen actually being sucked out of an aircraft merely through explosive decompression caused by a small hole.

Here is the only account I've ever heard of a crewman possibly being sucked from a B29 in a depress incident. From http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:iW ... sion&hl=en
Bob Moss recalls the explosion in the plane and the events that followed: Fighters attacked us as we turned back over the Straits of Formosa heading toward China. A tremendous "swoosh" scattered papers and other items as the aircraft, at that instant, lost cabin pressure. The crew in the back reported the side blister was gone and so was Sgt. Hornyia. A shell exploded over the co-pilot's position injuring Lt. Weinberg and Sgt. Klaver. Other damage to the plane involved the wiring in the bomb bay, the oxygen system, etc

So here you have a B-29 taking exploding shell hits that cause depress. The crewman's account notably does not say "and we lost Sgt. Horniya when depress caused him to be sucked from the plane." It says the side blister and its crewman were gone. German shell hits were known to tear ball turrets from B-17s in the ETO, so I don't think the loss of a crewman when his observation blister disappears is necessarily germane to our discussion. The B-29 was taking multiple exploding shell hits. Under these circumstances a person would have to beg the question to conclude that depress cause the loss of the crewman.
So now you can go ahead and say that explosive decompression wasn't dangerous.


Why would I make that claim? I never said or implied same. Only a really intellectually dishonest person or a classic chickenshit would claim that I did.
Here is some info for you to digest. I'm sure you can find more on the web. I'll even let you counter with the Mythbusters test just so I can rip that one apart too.


You might try to rip it apart as you did in your poorly researched, weak, and strawman attempt at a rebuttal above. And you'd fail. Again.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by Dereck »

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Some answers to questions posed -

1. How is fatigue figured? Basically 1.5 fatigue per hex travelled. So one hex out and back = 3 fatigue. It's fairly linear. Your shorter ranged bombers will always have lower fatigue, because their mission ranges are shorter. CAP fighters usually have fairly low fatigue, because they don't go very far.

2. Does WitP handle the fatigue reduction modifications for B-29s or 4e bombers? No.

3. If you changed the DB to remove the guns, and increase the payload, would this affect fatigue? No.

4. Is are the incendaries used by B-29s modeled in WitP? Yes, and no. There are incendiary cluster bombs in the DB (100# and 400# variety as I recall). However
a. They are not set as payload for any bombers in WitP, so they're not used in WitP.
b. They are rated exactly the same as GP bombs. As in, their effect is 100 and 400; just like a 500# GP bomb has a rating of 500. They would likely be treated just like an 400# GP bomb.
c. It is possible, altho unlikely (IMO), that there is special hard-coding for the two ICB (cluster) devices in WitP that would allow them to be more damaging to strat targets. But frankly, I doubt it. It is on my list to test for curiousity's sake however.
d. The B-29s used the M-69 cluster bomb. It was actually a cluster of bomblets each weighing 6#, with 38 in a container. B-29 carried 37 M-69s. I WitP terms, the device would weigh 238# (so we'll call it 250#). Since WitP would equate the effect rating at 250 (just like a 250# GP bomb), it is also my intent to test with 40x 250# bombs. I'll be interested to see if lowering the effect rating (boom) has any affect on the amount of damage caused (since the current payload is 40x 500#). I also intend to test with a payload of 6# x 1046 (using the bomblets individually). Not sure if this will work tho, either the effect rating of 6 may be too small, or the payload of 1046 may be too large. Again, for future tests.

-F-


*** The reason I'm using 6000' for my tests is
a. Best accuracy
b. Was height used for the bulk of the historical missions (actualy 5k), after they found out Jet Stream = Bad for accuracy.

Feinder,

From the historical log of Mariana B-29 missions it seems like the "average" bombing altitudes seemed to be in the 10-20,000 foot range with the majority seeming to be below 15,000 feet. There were some that were at higher altitudes and others at lower altitudes.
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RE: Some VERY PRELIMINARY testing of Strategic Bombing

Post by Dereck »

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

I think the test should be done with day raids at 15000-20000 feet and night raids at 5000. But as I said: 'if I'm not pleased with them, I can do them on my own'. So no more critics.

About the score "not being right" as Feinder said, it is. I had the same problem in a game and then realized that my score was 2 * (centers shown hit) + 2, or 2 * (center shown hit + 1). What happens is that one center get repaired after the bombing and before the end of the turn, so the score is confirmed as 2 per center hit.

As for strategic bombing being useless, I disagree strongly. ). I doubt that Japanese defenses will change it much at night. And fatigue will allow a raid every two days, so with weather you can hope to have a raid every 3 days. That means that each B-29 will score 10 points per month on strategic bombing. On a regular basis. I don't see how you Using 100 B-29 at night in the above test conditions will score roughly 406 points in 4 raids (one with no bomber over the targetcan score so much points by bombing something else.

Day raids are more profitable, with 3 points scored in these tests for each (available) bomber per raid. But there opposition may change a lot of things. I think this can be done at this altitude to crush small Japanese cities.

Oh, someone asked if bombing may destroy industry or centers. The answer is no. Only firestorms may.

Admiral,

I've been playing a game TRYING to do night bombing and the problem with flying from the Marianas is that the fatigue is way too much so you can only fly a mission every 4 days. Even then with flying 1/4th of my bombers I'd fly a mission with 96 bombers but only 30-40 would actually fly and when they did bomb they didn't do enough damage for squat.
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