Land movement between islands & mountains in China (Revised after testing)

[treespider]

Kan Hsien 371 45 39 ROC Air Base Hex

Unfortunately I'm not home right now...but I believe this is located btw Nanchang and Canton? ....Ahh found the thread but I posted these suggestions before...


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I agree about roughing up the terrain in china, however the transportation net would need to be altered as well.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: el cid again
I must confess to being astonished at the map as it is. SE China in particular is very mountainous, and there are no mountains whatever in the entire region - nor many in many adjacent regions.

Same with Manchuria, whole mountain ranges are missing!

Regarding mountain terrain. When I drew my map, I decided on a cutoff of 3,000m for use of mountain terrain. For lower areas that are still mountainous, I used forest terrain as a representation.

What I would have liked to have is another terrain type called "rough" or some such, which could be used to represent rugged/mountainous areas of lower altitude. There are quite a few areas of the map besides China where such a terrain type could be used.

Andrew

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Pucheng 419 49 40 ROC Air Base Hex

Suggested for addition to CHS, also served as the location of the 3rd War Area HQ.

There really would need to be a map alteration to add this base.

I do think that there should be more trails in that area of China, though. Pretty much every hex, in fact...

Andrew

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: treespider

Pucheng 419 49 40 ROC Air Base Hex

Suggested for addition to CHS, also served as the location of the 3rd War Area HQ.

There really would need to be a map alteration to add this base.

I do think that there should be more trails in that area of China, though. Pretty much every hex, in fact...

Andrew

Not every hex...I'll send you the map photos when I get home.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: treespider
Not every hex...I'll send you the map photos when I get home.

Don't take my comment literally. I was just talking about the SE area of China.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: treespider
Not every hex...I'll send you the map photos when I get home.

Don't take my comment literally. I was just talking about the SE area of China.

I know.

[el cid again]

[South China] NA 36 35 Adding Hanoi-Kunming RR.
[South China] NA 38 34 Adding Hanoi-Kunming RR.

Be careful here....

There is a bit of interesting history here. Late in the war, Japan invited all French officers in Indochina to dinner. "Not long after the first course..." they were all shot. Except for the Foreign Legion unit at Hanoi - they somehow got wind of the plot. Not wishing to stay and fight the whole Japanese army, they went to Kunming - down the railroad line!

Not sure what there is to be careful about? It is a real rail line.

[el cid again]

I agree about roughing up the terrain in china, however the transportation net would need to be altered as well.

It is not widely understood, but "cultivated" and "urban" terrain IS more or less all directional trails or roads (depending on the type). They don't connect to quite every hex side - but to all appropriate ones. To save clutter on the map. But people not seeing the trails often do not understand they are there. I carefully avoided changing those hexes - although some of them SHOULD BE mountains - it requires careful analysis. But the forest hexes in SE China are all mountains - for sure.
I did a 1,000,000 scale map for a war between China and ROC - one in which China itself can get attacked.

[el cid again]

When I drew my map, I decided on a cutoff of 3,000m for use of mountain terrain. For lower areas that are still mountainous, I used forest terrain as a representation.

In this case, Andrew's map is right - not one mountain in SE (or E or NE) China is over 3000 meters. "The highest mountains in East Asia" are on Taiwan - and they top UNDER 3000 meters - about 8000 feet in the case of the tallest mountains. But they (and the mountains in China) are RUGGED mountains - I have no idea why 3000 meters is considered a good cutoff. Nobody ignores a mere 3300 foot bump (1000 meters), much less a 6600 foot one (2000 meters). And these mountains come in chains - long lines - as a rule - creating major barriers to communications.

[el cid again]

Aside from technical changes required to make certain routes work,
this adds a road between Naha and Noho on Okinawa, corrects a road to a trail near Banjermasin on Borneo, adds a fairly important location to the Bungo Straits between Kyushu and Shikoku (Oita/Saeki) - this last permits some air units to be properly located - and renders certain names more correct for Japan (e.g. Bako [Pescadores]) - which helps associate unit names with map locations.

[Aawulf]

i imagine you define the hex as coast and the hexside you want as a river- a river and the other hexsides as appropriate.

As Andrew pointed out, it is tricky. It has been a while since I messed around in the hex data, but I believe the code for the attached hexsides is "4" for river. And, I believe that at least one of the hexes will have to be a port for naval vessels to still be able to use the pass.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

[South China] NA 36 35 Adding Hanoi-Kunming RR.
[South China] NA 38 34 Adding Hanoi-Kunming RR.

Be careful here....

There is a bit of interesting history here. Late in the war, Japan invited all French officers in Indochina to dinner. "Not long after the first course..." they were all shot. Except for the Foreign Legion unit at Hanoi - they somehow got wind of the plot. Not wishing to stay and fight the whole Japanese army, they went to Kunming - down the railroad line!

Not sure what there is to be careful about? It is a real rail line.

The Yunnan railway was a narrow railway (metric-gauge) from Kunming to Hanoi in Vietnam. It was constructed by the French from 1903 to 1910. If I remember correctly, the Chinese removed parts of the line after the Japanese occupation of Indochina in 1940 and the rail line was not reopened until 1957... Anyway, I don't think that a metric-gauge railway would qualify for a railway line in game terms!

About the Yunnan railway and strategic options at the border between Indochina and Yunnan:

Memorandum for the Chief of Staff:

Subject: Possible Japanese Drive into Yunnan. November 13, 1941.

Reference is made to memorandum of this Division to the Chief of Staff, I. B. 148, November 1, 1941, subject: Possible Japanese Drive into Yunnan. In this memorandum emphasis was placed on the principal avenue of advance, Laokai-Kunming. Since its submission the question has been raised of the possibility of a Japanese advance against Kunming and the Burma road through Kwangsi Province, in conjunction with a penetration up the normal avenue of the Yunnan railroad, Laokai-Mengtze-Kunming.

The axis of the route through Kwangsi is the course of the Yu river, 150 miles northeast of the Yunnan railroad and roughly parallel to it. (See Map, Tab A.) This river rises in the mountains of eastern Yunnan and flows through southwest Kwangsi Province to its confluence with the West River near Nanning. It is navigable for river junks as far west as Poseh. To make use of this corridor the Japanese would have to move north from Hanoi to Caobang, thence across the Chinese border to the vicinity of Poseh, whence they could launch their attack up the Yunnan escarpment toward Kwangnan on the plateau. 150 miles southeast of Kunming.

This would be an even more difficult operation than a direct attack along the Yunnan railway line, since the supply problem would be enormous. From Caobang a fair road for light motor traffic runs 185 miles north to Poseh. Most bridges on this route have a capacity of only 1 1/2 tons. Also it is probable that since the Japanese occupation of Indo-China, the Chinese have destroyed the road near the border.

Poseh can also be reached by the Hanoi-Langson-Nanning road, and thence northwest via Wuming and the Yu valley. Somewhat better roads exist on this route but the distance from Langson to Poseh is about 260 miles, as compared with 185 from Caobang to Poseh. Here also, the Chinese have demolished the highways near the border, and also the railway line which was under construction before the Japanese occupation of Nanning in 1940.

Arrived at Poseh the Japanese would be confronted with practically the same difficult terrain conditions as at Laokai, on the frontier Poseh has an elevation of 525 feet; Kwangnan, 4,515. The air distance between the two is approximately 100 miles, and there are no motor roads in existence. (The Chinese have been surveying a highway from Kaihua, east of Mengtze on the Yunnan railway, through Kwangnan to Poseh, but latest reports indicate no actual construction on this route.) The terrain is almost as rugged as that north of Laokai.

The only apparent reason for use of this route would be in the event that the Japanese plan of campaign called for a "pincers" movement on Kunming. However, it would not be a true envelopment as initially it would be directed against Chinese forces not allotted to the defense of Kunming. Absence of lateral communication inside China would be a serious handicap to such an operation, to say nothing of the long line of communications through a hostile territory.

SHERMAN MILES

Brigadier General U. S. Army

Acting Assistant Chief of Staff, G-2.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: el cid again

[South China] NA 36 35 Adding Hanoi-Kunming RR.
[South China] NA 38 34 Adding Hanoi-Kunming RR.

Be careful here....

There is a bit of interesting history here. Late in the war, Japan invited all French officers in Indochina to dinner. "Not long after the first course..." they were all shot. Except for the Foreign Legion unit at Hanoi - they somehow got wind of the plot. Not wishing to stay and fight the whole Japanese army, they went to Kunming - down the railroad line!

Not sure what there is to be careful about? It is a real rail line.

The Yunnan railway was a narrow railway (metric-gauge) from Kunming to Hanoi in Vietnam. It was constructed by the French from 1903 to 1910. If I remember correctly, the Chinese removed parts of the line after the Japanese occupation of Indochina in 1940 and the rail line was not reopened until 1957... Anyway, I don't think that a metric-gauge railway would qualify for a railway line in game terms!

About the Yunnan railway and strategic options at the border between Indochina and Yunnan:

Memorandum for the Chief of Staff:

Subject: Possible Japanese Drive into Yunnan. November 13, 1941.

Reference is made to memorandum of this Division to the Chief of Staff, I. B. 148, November 1, 1941, subject: Possible Japanese Drive into Yunnan. In this memorandum emphasis was placed on the principal avenue of advance, Laokai-Kunming. Since its submission the question has been raised of the possibility of a Japanese advance against Kunming and the Burma road through Kwangsi Province, in conjunction with a penetration up the normal avenue of the Yunnan railroad, Laokai-Mengtze-Kunming.

The axis of the route through Kwangsi is the course of the Yu river, 150 miles northeast of the Yunnan railroad and roughly parallel to it. (See Map, Tab A.) This river rises in the mountains of eastern Yunnan and flows through southwest Kwangsi Province to its confluence with the West River near Nanning. It is navigable for river junks as far west as Poseh. To make use of this corridor the Japanese would have to move north from Hanoi to Caobang, thence across the Chinese border to the vicinity of Poseh, whence they could launch their attack up the Yunnan escarpment toward Kwangnan on the plateau. 150 miles southeast of Kunming.

This would be an even more difficult operation than a direct attack along the Yunnan railway line, since the supply problem would be enormous. From Caobang a fair road for light motor traffic runs 185 miles north to Poseh. Most bridges on this route have a capacity of only 1 1/2 tons. Also it is probable that since the Japanese occupation of Indo-China, the Chinese have destroyed the road near the border.

Poseh can also be reached by the Hanoi-Langson-Nanning road, and thence northwest via Wuming and the Yu valley. Somewhat better roads exist on this route but the distance from Langson to Poseh is about 260 miles, as compared with 185 from Caobang to Poseh. Here also, the Chinese have demolished the highways near the border, and also the railway line which was under construction before the Japanese occupation of Nanning in 1940.

Arrived at Poseh the Japanese would be confronted with practically the same difficult terrain conditions as at Laokai, on the frontier Poseh has an elevation of 525 feet; Kwangnan, 4,515. The air distance between the two is approximately 100 miles, and there are no motor roads in existence. (The Chinese have been surveying a highway from Kaihua, east of Mengtze on the Yunnan railway, through Kwangnan to Poseh, but latest reports indicate no actual construction on this route.) The terrain is almost as rugged as that north of Laokai.

The only apparent reason for use of this route would be in the event that the Japanese plan of campaign called for a "pincers" movement on Kunming. However, it would not be a true envelopment as initially it would be directed against Chinese forces not allotted to the defense of Kunming. Absence of lateral communication inside China would be a serious handicap to such an operation, to say nothing of the long line of communications through a hostile territory.

SHERMAN MILES

Brigadier General U. S. Army

Acting Assistant Chief of Staff, G-2.

Map dated 1957

[treespider]

Map dated 1946, Broken rail line indicates damaged or dismantled and meter gauge. Thick red line indicates trunk road surfaced with crushed rock/gravel motorable in most weather. Red and white line indicates branch/secondary road surfaced with crushed rock/gravel motorable in most weather.

[treespider]

The Hanoi -Kunming RR if it were not dismantled would not be a RR in the same vein as say the Peiping-Tientsin line in game terms.

[el cid again]

As Andrew pointed out, it is tricky. It has been a while since I messed around in the hex data, but I believe the code for the attached hexsides is "4" for river. And, I believe that at least one of the hexes will have to be a port for naval vessels to still be able to use the pass.

There are several options:

1) If you want a water barrier impassible to ocean ships (rare but it happens), use a river (type 4).

2) If you want a water barrier passable to ocean ships (common), define the hex side for adjacent hexes as "coast" (type 2).

3) If you want ships to be able to dock (normal), define a port in either or both hexes. If you think one side is undeveloped (rare but it happens), do not define a port on that side of the passage. In fact, you do not have to define the hex at all - in which case a port can NEVER be built there - but it will still function as a ferry.

[el cid again]

The Yunnan railway was a narrow railway (metric-gauge) from Kunming to Hanoi in Vietnam. It was constructed by the French from 1903 to 1910. If I remember correctly, the Chinese removed parts of the line after the Japanese occupation of Indochina in 1940 and the rail line was not reopened until 1957... Anyway, I don't think that a metric-gauge railway would qualify for a railway line in game terms!

IF a "metric railway does not qualify for a railway line in game terms" we lose ALL rail lines in Burma, Thailand, Malaya, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and many other places. And probably in the Indies - 3 foot 6 inch is almost exactly 1 meter - just a hair over! Actually, that is not the criteria.
It is the weight of the rail and the nature of the service (primary, secondary or tirtiary). We have secondary rail lines defined as = to roads in many places - and IF you wanted to do that to ALL SE Asia - I would be receptive to the argument. But not the main lines on Java - which are "absolutely the most efficient...3 foot 6 inch lines in the world."
Also, you might just make the case for Burma alone - because its rail weight on the main line is very very low - and because it has very low capacity RR workshops.

Now I had not heard that the line to Kunming was torn up. But I also rated it as a road = secondary line in the first place - so probably that is the right way to go. But I will listen to more comment on this matter. I know the FFL marched down the line - they didn't take a train. Note that I have added mountains, so the route needs to be defined for troops to pass - and this is hardly a trail.

[el cid again]

About the Yunnan railway and strategic options at the border between Indochina and Yunnan:

The attached memorandum and map is very interesting. I am not sure it matters in game terms - there is clearly a rail line SE from Kunming and another NW from Hanoi - and the gap is not only small but already graded (having been laid with track). Emplacement of track was at 14 km a day in the 19th century WHEN YOU HAD TO BUILD THE GRADE and it is no less than 300 km with a tracklayer on already graded line.
Both Japan and China built rail lines throughout the war, and that over UNGRADED and even unsurveyed routes (it takes time to survey possible routes, decide on which, then push pioneer roads into an area). But, in game terms, for technical reasons, I had shown this line as partially rail and partially road - see new data sheet above. Think of the "road" part as the destroyed part if you like.

[CobraAus]

So Sid has reference point for how the south China area will look in the RHS map version I am posting a sample of the South China area (Note this is still work in progress but I think we are getting close to release version)

Cobra Aus

[timtom]

Confessing a near total ignorance of the Chinese theatre, is it correct that the Japanese never attempted to control the area now proposed as mountain terrain? If so, I presume the nature of the terrain was a factor? Could a case be made for adding some intrinsic supply to one or more hexes in order to turn the area into a Chinese guerilla redoubt?