56 Kates

[AmiralLaurent]

Maybe the problem is that in the game real production and research are done in separate factories.

Another problem is the too fast retooling ability, and the magical overnight free transformation from factories from one model to the other.

In WITP production of both sides is too high IMOO, but combat losses are also too high.

Yes, Japanese players may change their production and decide to build more Kates and Vals than what was done historically, but currently they can do it without stopping any other production, while in RL they probably had choices to do.

By the way, in my both PBEM currently underway, production of Val and Kate is now stopped in mid-42, because I have 200 or more of each in pool and I can't produce enough trained pilots for them. My carriers have roughly 60% of their normal Kate and Val contingent.

[mogami]

Hi, One thousand, one hundred and forty-nine B5Ns were built, 669 by the parent company Nakajima between 1936 and 1941, 200 by Aichi in 1942-43, and 280 by the Naval Air Arsenal at Hiro in 1942-43
I think they just had the factories "off" in WITP terms. I have a few games where I am not building any either.

[Charles2222]

AmiralLaurent:

Yes, Japanese players may change their production and decide to build more Kates and Vals than what was done historically, but currently they can do it without stopping any other production, while in RL they probably had choices to do.

In RL you can expand any kind of factory, especially when it's for the military. The IJ players do quite a bit of re-tooling their factories from other planes as well. In my case I probably start off doing more re-tooling than expanding. Most expansion I put into vehicles, artillery, and expanding bases, etc.

[Andy Mac]

I dont care the more kates they produce

If Japanese players want to over expand industry they can have hundreds or thousands of additional aircraft flown by green pilots for all I care its all VP's for F4U's to garner and when I firestorm the factories its more VP's for me [:D][:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

That's the spirit![:D]

[Speedysteve]

A different way of looking at it for sure[:D]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Treespider... is it possible that Paschall is reporting what the Nakajima factory produced as opposed to the Naval Air Depots? It seems to me that the depots might possibly have airframes that were produced in 1941 that they are finishing off...

I do not know for sure, but this could explain the differences...

At this point I'm not sure what Parshall and Tully were doing other than maybe trying to sensationalize their book!

I was planning on picking up the Nakajima report today and get a clearer picture of what was going on. As far as the Naval Air Depots from the USSBS report, the monthly statistics that I provided earlier are for airframes separate from engines. The text of the report indicates that in 1942 and 1943 250 aircraft were completed at 11th Naval Air Depot and is broken down further in that 100 were planned and completed in 1942 and 150 planned and completed in 1943.

[panda124c]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Don't go there T. The Allied fanboys will cry foul.[:D]

You're right there, not enough Japanese A/C to shoot down now, and you want to go and reduce the number of targets. NOT FAIR, FOUL! [:-]

[Mike Solli]

[:D]

[asdicus]

For completeness regarding Kate aircraft production by the japanese I mention the following production statistics taken from the original USSBS end of war reports :

Nakajima Koizumi works (Corporation Report II) 1941 131 planes to aug 1941 no futher production (peak monthly production 27 planes may 1941)

Aichi Aircraft Eitoku plant (Corporation Report V) 1941 nil 1942 55 planes 1943 145 planes
Total 200 planes (peak monthly production 21 planes)

Eleventh Naval Air Depot (Corporation Report XIX) 1941 nil 1942 70 planes 1943 165 planes 1944 45 planes Total 280 planes (peak monthly production 15 planes)

The Koizumi plant ceased Kate production in late 1941 and prepared/retooled for Jill production starting jan 43. It is interesting to note that it takes many months for Jill production to build up - first 6 months of 1943 only 48 Jill were built. The game engine allows aircraft production to rise too fast especially for new planes. Retooling and working out production bugs is a time consuming business. I think the old pacwar dos game engine works well on this - a new factory starts out at production level 1(per week) and then slowly grows based on the size of your heavy industry capacity.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: asdicus

For completeness regarding Kate aircraft production by the japanese I mention the following production statistics taken from the original USSBS end of war reports :

Nakajima Koizumi works (Corporation Report II) 1941 131 planes to aug 1941 no futher production (peak monthly production 27 planes may 1941)

Aichi Aircraft Eitoku plant (Corporation Report V) 1941 nil 1942 55 planes 1943 145 planes
Total 200 planes (peak monthly production 21 planes)

Eleventh Naval Air Depot (Corporation Report XIX) 1941 nil 1942 70 planes 1943 165 planes 1944 45 planes Total 280 planes (peak monthly production 15 planes)

The Koizumi plant ceased Kate production in late 1941 and prepared/retooled for Jill production starting jan 43. It is interesting to note that it takes many months for Jill production to build up - first 6 months of 1943 only 48 Jill were built. The game engine allows aircraft production to rise too fast especially for new planes. Retooling and working out production bugs is a time consuming business. I think the old pacwar dos game engine works well on this - a new factory starts out at production level 1(per week) and then slowly grows based on the size of your heavy industry capacity.

Thanks. I went down to the library today...the Nakajima report, as near as I can tell, appears to be incomplete as far as production at some of their other facilities other than the Koizumi facility. The narratives at these plants indicate that they also produced Kates however provide no figures. In any event from the above it is evident that Parshall and Tully are not accurate in reporting that the Japanese built 56 'carrier-attack' aircraft in 1942 as the records show they built at least 120 Kates alone.

[spence]

I wonder if the Eleventh Naval Depot was in fact a production facility. Depots in general are not. They do however refurbish/rehabilitate previously produced military equipment. The figures above credit the 11th with "producing" 70 Kates. I would not be surprised at all to find out that the "production" was in fact a field conversion of B5N1s to B5N2s which might well account for the "production" for 1943 as well.


Parshall and Tully appeared to me to be curious why the IJN sought "THE DECISIVE BATTLE" with air groups substantially reduced from their Pearl harbor strength if that was not forced on them by factors outside their immediate control. Their inquiries led them to detail not only the strength of the 4 Kido Butai carriers but that of the other carriers involved in the operation as well. Hosho was carrying whatever a/c preceded the Kate.
Zuiho carried 12 Kates which is her normal complement in WitP but only 6 A6Ms and 6 A5Ms. Ryujo and Junyo had reduced air groups which were augmented by temporarily assigned a/c and pilots from Shokaku and a land based Zero unit which evidently had some carrier trained pilots (some of the KB had planes and pilots from this Daitai as well). Zuikaku was so reduced in air group strength as to be unavailable for the Midway operation. Shoho had showed up at Coral Sea with only 6 Kates embarked before it and they met their end.

The Japanese weren't stupid. The primary strategic tenet of their military doctrine was to MASS combat power. That they did not mass more of what they considered the most important strike aircraft at Midway was most likely because they could not.

[Mike Scholl]

Best figures I can find for KATE production in 1942 is 125..., and almost all of them in the last six months of the year (after Midway)

[treespider]

I wonder if the Eleventh Naval Depot was in fact a production facility. Depots in general are not. They do however refurbish/rehabilitate previously produced military equipment. The figures above credit the 11th with "producing" 70 Kates. I would not be surprised at all to find out that the "production" was in fact a field conversion of B5N1s to B5N2s which might well account for the "production" for 1943 as well.

I have "USSBS, Army Air Arsenal and Navy Air Depots, Corporartion Report XIX" sitting in front of me right now.

from Page 1

"INTRODUCTION

The Japanese Army and Navy air depots were similar to those of this country in that they handled repair, modification and distribution of aircraft. However, one Japanese Army arsenal and four naval depots were also producers of aircraft and together accounted for 3.8 percent of all Japanese aircraft production and 4.4 percent of all combat aircraft production over the years 1941 through 1945."

From Page 15

"The Eleventh Naval Air Depot (Dai Juichi Kaigun Kokusho) was one of four air depots that were producing or were about to produce aircraft. the depot manufactured both airframes and aircraft engines."


From page 20-

It lists among other things-

Airframe and Engine Shop - completed 2 Apr 1942 - 41,840 sq ft