KB after PH strike

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
How many nations that are at peace with you one minute, then attacking you the next, don't achieve a high level of surprise?

Well this a rude oversimplification of the situation in the Pacific in dec 41. FDR was busy dragging the US into the war against Japan since months by then. Knowing the japs (see Russo-Japan war in 1904) I am not exegarating saying he has sacrified the old BBs, in exchange the war he wanted. Something Eisenhower did in the Battle of the Bulge to make the huns to get out behind the Siegfried line.

Oh, I see, so all those surprises were just really the other side playing the ol' Ali rope-a-dope huh [;)]. Now if only their country's attitude towards neutrality and peace-in-our-time and such weren't so blantantly obvious. Just another level of rope-a-dope I guess. Now if only some of them didn't rope-a-dope their whole self-determination as a nation away.

[Ursa MAior]

You are wrong. All I am saying is that the US military branches WERE surprised, but not FDR. Putting the fleet on no alarm in a tenous situation to an outpost is best described as a bait. Without the continous pressure (one might say provocation) on Japan, the IJN would have not attacked before they handled the RN and the dutch IMO.
Japan had a tendency to attack out of the blue and without or at the same time of declaration of war. ALL senior members of the US armed forces should have been alert of this and knowing about the continous rise of tensions between the two states. These facts make your statements about surprise untenable.

The US forces were blind on the Day of Infamy, but not because their opponent have blinded them, buit because they have closed their eyes. Why, it remains a mystery to me.

Wait now I see that you are a 'cowboy' from Texas. One of your mates have refused to wear the blue beret of the UN in a peacekeeping mission. Just cuz he has sweared on the 'Stars 'n' Stripes' and no stinkin' blue rag. [:D]All the above is cancelled you are right, amigo mio. Just keep the colt in the holster.[&o][&o]

[Akos Gergely]

Charles,

American people are not stupid, and they weren't as well back in 1941, nor were their leaders. After a few month of diplomatic manuvering and a fully raging war going on in Europe it was more than evident that the peace with Japan was no more than a paper term. If I remember correctly all oil shipments for Japan were denied and most Japanese bank accounts in US banks were frozen...so not exactly two nations in a peaceful friendship.

God forbid, but it was the same as for example if an Iranian diesel/electric-sub with their Skhvals would sink or cripple a USN super carrier today....

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I dont understand those who hang around for more days (IIRC Fuchida and ALL others were for a second strike except Nagumo). It is gamey, not to mention after strike No. 2 KB attack sqns have a morale of cca 40+ max, and at least half of the planes are damaged. No point losing all those pilots in exchange for so little.

But there IS a point in retreating, meeting up with the tankers, refueling, repairing planes, and then comeing back - EAST of Hawaii - hoping to catch cripples running for the West coast - or reinforcements coming in - or carriers returning to port. With rested air groups, repaired airplanes, and partly restored morale - about 2 days later.

Agreed, but then why KB have not done it?

Possible explanation. The Tankers were about 3 days to the North West, and as I recall they had enough feul to get KB home from there, but not enough to let it stick around staging further raids. Damned logistics spoil everybodies fun.... Fun if you are playing a "Fast and Loose" game with an agreeable opponant; but probably not "kosher" if you have agreed to "historical reality".

[Mike Scholl]

Hello Mike. I think to presume that somehow the then inept US military would've been much better prepared for an attack on PI has some wisdom to it, but only in as much as the PH debacle couldn't have been much worse

Can't argue that the US commanders in the Pacific by and large "Screwed the Pooch" on December 7th.
Suprisingly, Lewis Bereton (one of my favorite "screw-ups") did manage to have his planes up and ready on that morning. Of course, the Japanese were caught by the weather and didn't arrive until the afternoon. Scratch one Air Force. But if you are going to allow the Japanese players to change all the doings of Nagumo and company, then it seems only fair that the Allied side get's a chance to do his own "screwing up".

[Mike Scholl]

You are wrong. All I am saying is that the US military branches WERE surprised, but not FDR. Putting the fleet on no alarm in a tenous situation to an outpost is best described as a bait. Without the continous pressure (one might say provocation) on Japan, the IJN would have not attacked before they handled the RN and the dutch IMO.

The US forces and Commanders were suprised at PH..., but not over the rest of the Pacific. EVERYBODY on the Allied side knew it was just a matter of days before the Japanese were going to "kick off the dance".
But nobody on Oahu seems to have believed they could strike that far East. THAT was certainly short-sighted given our own "war games" and Japanese History. The problem in the PI wasn't that they didn't know the "shoe was going to drop", it was that MacArthur believed his own Bu11$hit and screwed up his preparations.

As to the "continuous pressure", even you say that the Japanese WERE going to attack. And given their history, how could they KNOW that the US wouldn't "jump them without warning" the way they were planning to do to others? Sometimes you just can't help being "hoisted on your own petard".

[Ursa MAior]

Civilization (PC) has a really nice feature. As a democracy you get a whole bunch of bonuses, but you cant declare war on anybody. IMHO it is in the nature of democracies. You dont start a war, you only finish them. Well we can send some prize to Bush jr cuz he just made this statment history. Ha has started a war and someone will finish it. For sure it wont be him. So the japs could have taken for granted that the US wont attack. IMO Hitler's greatest strategic mistake was to declare war on the US. FDR have had to try much harder to achieve an incident like PH, with the nazis.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Civilization (PC) has a really nice feature. As a democracy you get a whole bunch of bonuses, but you cant declare war on anybody. IMHO it is in the nature of democracies. You dont start a war, you only finish them. Well we can send some prize to Bush jr cuz he just made this statment history. Ha has started a war and someone will finish it. For sure it wont be him. So the japs could have taken for granted that the US wont attack. IMO Hitler's greatest strategic mistake was to declare war on the US. FDR have had to try much harder to achieve an incident like PH, with the nazis.

No particular arguement about Hitler's stupidity. But you have to remember the Japanese Military (who was really running the show) were a very insular group, and saw everything through their own myopic glasses. Remember, the assumed that Pearl Harbor would discourage the American Public, not enrage them. The Japanese had no real experiance with democracy, so they could only judge others on the basis of their own experiances. And they were as wrong about us as we were about them....

[bradfordkay]

" Putting the fleet on no alarm in a tenous situation to an outpost is best described as a bait."

The fleet was given a warning. They just failed to make full use of it.

[ChezDaJez]

But if you are going to allow the Japanese players to change all the doings of Nagumo and company, then it seems only fair that the Allied side get's a chance to do his own "screwing up".

That's only fair.

But isn't that what we do the moment we choose to move any unit to a position it didn't occupy IRL?

I think most players would agree that being able to conduct the war in an ahistorical manner but within historical context is what draws them to the game. I personally would find the game boring if I were forced to conduct the same operations with the same units on the same dates as the combatants did IRL.

Now that doesn't mean that using hindsight to go CV hunting on turn 1 shouldn't be called gamey. I put that in the same category as using hundreds of 4Es on a single raid. As I said above I don't agree with the tactic unless the Allied CVs are given a chance to scurry for cover if they so desire.

Chez

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

But if you are going to allow the Japanese players to change all the doings of Nagumo and company, then it seems only fair that the Allied side get's a chance to do his own "screwing up".

That's only fair.

But isn't that what we do the moment we choose to move any unit to a position it didn't occupy IRL?

I think most players would agree that being able to conduct the war in an ahistorical manner but within historical context is what draws them to the game. I personally would find the game boring if I were forced to conduct the same operations with the same units on the same dates as the combatants did IRL.

Now that doesn't mean that using hindsight to go CV hunting on turn 1 shouldn't be called gamey. I put that in the same category as using hundreds of 4Es on a single raid. As I said above I don't agree with the tactic unless the Allied CVs are given a chance to scurry for cover if they so desire.

Chez

In this case we find outselves in total agreement. It all comes down to a matter of how "wild and wooley" you want the games you play to be. I have no problem playing with "what if's" providing they are historically rational, feasable, and doable. Others will be upset if they can't make use of every loophole the designers left intact. Neither viewpoint is invalid..., but the two of us are going to be very unhappy trying to play each other. And before you jump to the wrong conclusion, I am not refering to you specifically as the second party..., just a genaric opposite of my own preferences.

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Hi. Japanese players who do anything other then retire to refuel after Dec 7 strike on PH

This seems to be a sentence fragment - is it fill in the blank?

Most US officers at the time felt Japan SHOULD have launched another strike

Japanese AIR officers at the time felt Japan SHOULD have launched another strike

Adm Yamaguchi ORDERED his planes to stand up for another strike and asked permission to launch

Not sure why there is ANY controversy about that?

As for other ops, Adm Yamamoto - surely someone whose opinon matters - decided the day after PH that he should have assigned the assets for a more sustained attack - specifically including invasion forces to follow up after more air strikes.

I know there is a club of believers that "history can not deviate 1% from what happened and not upset me"

but history is really about possibilities - not certainties. IMHO it is not simulation if we cannot explore possibilities. If you want certainty, watch a movie - the same movie - over and over - about the PH attack.

Spoken like a poet. That has been my point over and over. I do not sim games so I can watch a replay of what happened. I sim them so I can have an affect over what happened. There are plenty of books and movies that show me "what" happened.

[ChezDaJez]

Neither viewpoint is invalid..., but the two of us are going to be very unhappy trying to play each other. And before you jump to the wrong conclusion, I am not refering to you specifically as the second party..., just a genaric opposite of my own preferences.

That's why its so damn important to lay the ground rules before starting a game. I wouldn't have a problem playing you or anyone else so long as we both agreed on what type of game it should be. And there will still be points where one or the other gets upset because everyone has a different defintion of what historically rational, feasable, and doable means.

Just like in my current PBEM game.; We didn't house rule heavies (PDU on) so now I'm getting blasted by huge masses of them flying from Koepang (level 4 base). One raid alone had over 500 strike Kendari unescorted. I wish now that we had made a rule but we didn't so I live with it. I don't consider it unfair or gamey but it sure does hurt! (BTW, his ops losses for that raid were 3!).

Chez

[mlees]

Hehe. That's why I play the AI. No complaints! No waiting for days for him to turn in his moves! Doesn't quit when he's losing! No gloating when he's winning!

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: mlees

Hehe. That's why I play the AI. No complaints! No waiting for days for him to turn in his moves! Doesn't quit when he's losing! No gloating when he's winning!

You should really try a human. . Find a reliable player makes this game 100% better. I cannot even fathom the AI anymore. Too dull.

[mlees]

You should really try a human. . Find a reliable player makes this game 100% better. I cannot even fathom the AI anymore. Too dull.

Well, it doesn't seem that you get my point. [;)] I doubt I will find a human that:

1) Never complains about something I did, or did not do.
2) Takes more than five minutes to finish and turn in his moves.
3) Does not quit when behind (and I mean, really behind).
4) Never gloats over my noobishness.
5) Demands house rules that favor him only.
6) Denys house rules that do not favor him.
7) I can beat.

Note: These requirements are equal in weight, not in any order of preference.

[Mr.Frag]

It would be interesting to adjust CV loadouts downwards to smaller bombs after the CV reaches < 50% of it's ordinance points.

Think it would enforce realistic results coupled with allowing people to stick around longer then normal should they choose.

Picture your day 3 strikes on PH with your Kates only having 250kg bombs instead of 800's and torpedoes ... you can stay if you want to ... but the return on investment is somewhat more realistic.

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: mlees

You should really try a human. . Find a reliable player makes this game 100% better. I cannot even fathom the AI anymore. Too dull.

Well, it doesn't seem that you get my point. [;)] I doubt I will find a human that:

1) Never complains about something I did, or did not do.
2) Takes more than five minutes to finish and turn in his moves.
3) Does not quit when behind (and I mean, really behind).
4) Never gloats over my noobishness.
5) Demands house rules that favor him only.
6) Denys house rules that do not favor him.
7) I can beat.

Note: These requirements are equal in weight, not in any order of preference.

A bitching sailor is a happy sailor. There are players out there that meet all your qualifications. Hell I know I have never won a game .

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

It would be interesting to adjust CV loadouts downwards to smaller bombs after the CV reaches < 50% of it's ordinance points.

Think it would enforce realistic results coupled with allowing people to stick around longer then normal should they choose.

Picture your day 3 strikes on PH with your Kates only having 250kg bombs instead of 800's and torpedoes ... you can stay if you want to ... but the return on investment is somewhat more realistic.

For example Zuikaku had stowage for:

45 torpedoes
90 800k bombs
306 250k bombs
540 60k bombs

And carried 27 Vals(or Judys) and 18-27 Kates(or Jills)

So about enough for 2 full strikes with torpedos.

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

It would be interesting to adjust CV loadouts downwards to smaller bombs after the CV reaches < 50% of it's ordinance points.

Think it would enforce realistic results coupled with allowing people to stick around longer then normal should they choose.

Picture your day 3 strikes on PH with your Kates only having 250kg bombs instead of 800's and torpedoes ... you can stay if you want to ... but the return on investment is somewhat more realistic.

For example Zuikaku had stowage for:

45 torpedoes
90 800k bombs
306 250k bombs
540 60k bombs

And carried 27 Vals(or Judys) and 18-27 Kates(or Jills)

So about enough for 2 full strikes with torpedos.

Maybe in WitP II.