New WiP 2 ?

[wworld7]

Bring back Pong.

Simple and a blast to play drunk (though NOT well).

Flipper

[Terminus]

Amen to that. Nothing like Pong...

[BrucePowers]

ORIGINAL: Kid

I know I'll get killed for saying this but I did not like HoI at all.  I bought it based on all the buzz but still found it to be just another real-time game.  I don't even like the new CW game that just came out that everyone else likes so much. I guess I'm stuck in the past.  If it isn't turn-based with hexes, I won't like it.

I agree with you Kid. For one thing, real time games require more dexterity than I have. I can think, I just can't type. I like turn based games where I can take my time.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Kid
I guess I'm stuck in the past.  If it isn't turn-based with hexes, I won't like it.

Well, when you consider the present and what the future seems to hold, we may be just as well off.

Let's talk "area movement." Isn't this just an excuse not to create all the detail necessary for "real" movement and combat? Avalon Hill used to describe the hex grid as a "way of regulating movement and combat." I find areas to be - ummm - somewhat irregular.

Let's talk "real time." No such thing. When a wargame runs without pause, it is forcing the player or players to react in an unrealistic time frame. Napoleon standing before La Belle Alliance did not have to go "click, click, fizz, fizz, oh what a relief it is" in order to re-position troops to further the advance or shore up the defense. He examined his maps, considered the situation, then issued orders, with which he had to live for a certain amount of time before he had the chance to issue new orders.

Sounds pretty turn based to me. The time you have for contemplation and planning is the best time in a wargame for me. Turn execution is nothing more than anxiety over whether you have planned and commanded properly. The best thing about computers for me is that they finally solved the "Igo-Yugo" problem and allowed "Iorder-Uorder-Wego."

Just my preference, of course. You "real time" folk may well prefer your trendy SUVs, but I have moved on to a nature-friendly vehicle that conserves energy.

What goes around comes around...

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Let's talk "area movement." Isn't this just an excuse not to create all the detail necessary for "real" movement and combat? Avalon Hill used to describe the hex grid as a "way of regulating movement and combat." I find areas to be - ummm - somewhat irregular.

"Irregular regulation." You don't like that? Strange, I would have thought that was right up your alley. [:D]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Widell

[;)] If one can dream freely, Matrix now has access to a range of games, which put together (veeeeeeeeery far fetched, I know) would become the mother of all wargames. Imagine the WitP high level naval model with the H3:ANW detailed level to resolve battles. Then add TOAW III for ground ops modelling with COTA to resolve battles. Everyting to be possible for the players to select at which level to resolve during the game of course

It´s possible it would take more time to play through WWII than the actual war took, but, hey, time´s availaible 24 hrs per day.....

Don't forget the cup holders as well.[:D]

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

Bring back Pong.

Simple and a blast to play drunk (though NOT well).

Flipper

Bong, Pong and a few beers. Gotcha. [:D]

[Onime No Kyo]

The begining of this thread gave me the cold shivers because it reminded me so much of a few MMO boards I've been to where 15 year old future marketing prodigies make brilliant "suggestions" to the devs, etc, etc. [8|]
 
As for me, I think that rehashing UV is not that great of an idea. Personally, I've had all of SoPac I can stand. On the other hand, I am rather curious to see this new "carrier ops" model. If they want to try it out on a smaller scale with more stable code, its their dime. By extension, I hope that at some point in the future they will apply that model to WitP, hopefully with a corresponding LBA ops model as well. In my opinion, the present air ops model is one of the worst aspects of the game.
 
Oh, and Matrix adn 2x3, it would be good if you made WitP2/UV2 free for all the people who got the first one. And I also want detailed air ops control, and detailed sub ops control, and I want it to be in Europe, and I also want the Med, and I also want all the ships that were never actually in SoPac, like the PH BBs in there and I also want it to be free. Oh, and I wanna pony too. [:D]

[Sonny]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


......................


Well, when you consider the present and what the future seems to hold, we may be just as well off.

....................

The motto of every generation.[8|]

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: Sonny

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


......................


Well, when you consider the present and what the future seems to hold, we may be just as well off.

....................

The motto of every generation.[8|]

Elvis is evil.

[ladner]

Whooaa guys.  I am definitely not advocating a HOI style province based map, which seems to be all the rage with GGWaW, and the Total War series of games.  I have, and always will prefer hex based games, the map from WitP is a piece of art work.  Where HOI shines in my opinion, is that is a better user interface and a lot of game based information is readily available in the form of tool tips.  Further it has many different information screens, in fact probably too many, which is why I think the got rid some for the Doomsday expansion since you had too good of intelligence regarding your opponent's strength.  I don't particularly like the slider based production, but at least you good idea if you are short on resources, granted the production system is far less complicated than WitP.
 
Further HOI has a convoy system where you just add, transports and escorts.  It would nice for a WitP2, or a whole war game to do a better job of being able to manage convoys.  The current WitP system is absolutely drudgery in trying to add ships, not to mention the oddball nature of how units are loaded and broken up.  It was always a real pain to figure out the right mix of ships for an amphibous assualt.  A computer game, should take advantage of the strengths of automation, and make it easy for the player to handle the mundance but necessary things, such as convoys, production, and resource management.
 
Lastly HOI does a much better job, of letting you know how effective a leader will be, leaders in WitP are still black magic to me, generally I go with leaders that have good ratings, but overall how they work, how significant a good leader is, is still a mystery, no such mystery in HOI though.  Similarly, I like how HOI has a combat event system, I think the events are only for land combat, it would nice to have WitP2 have events for both land and sea.  For example in HOI there are combat events for breakthrough, counterattack, ambush, and encirclement.  I think WitP2 land combat would benefit greatly from having combat events, for example it would be easy for a pocket  to form in the area formed by a 60 mile hex, however, with current combat engine, it is like you have a static front like WWI and no indication of the fluidity of combat until one side retreats.  I think WitP is taking a step in the right direction since you have in hex movement, which is a big step compared to older games like War in Russia.

[ladner]

To elaborate further, I have read posts on this forum, were folks have created seperate spreadsheets and tools to track game related information, such as supplies.  In my mind the game should have tools built in and should do a better job of letting the player know what is required.
 
I just glanced through Mogami's replies in the 'Conservative Japanese Strategy' thread and find it interesting that you have to keep track of millions of supply points.  Maybe it is the intent of the designer to capture the fog of war and war bureauacracy by having the game in this current state. 
 
I think a WitP2 should to a better job of presenting information, in particular supply needs and forecasted needs.  Further the convoy management needs to be completely redone, the autoconvoy system does not work, and even more maddening is the TFs going into LBA.  I think I recall in one of Joel Billing's posts that he mentioned that there was new engine in the works for the War in Russia game, since he acknowledged the limitations of the UV/WitP engine and interface.  I think a lot of improvement could be made in the user interface to make convoy and task force management a lot easier, likewise with the loading of units for amphibous operations.  I always felt like I spent the bulk of my WitP/UV playing while giving orders drilling down into the UI due to the many clicks involved and the overall intensive nature of how information is presented by the UI to the gamer.

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: ladner

To elaborate further, I have read posts on this forum, were folks have created seperate spreadsheets and tools to track game related information, such as supplies. In my mind the game should have tools built in and should do a better job of letting the player know what is required.

I just glanced through Mogami's replies in the 'Conservative Japanese Strategy' thread and find it interesting that you have to keep track of millions of supply points. Maybe it is the intent of the designer to capture the fog of war and war bureauacracy by having the game in this current state.

I couldn't agree more. There's so much data in this game that has to be taken care of, and the abililty to sort, filter and display this data is so limited, it is like playing a piano with both hands tied together and in boxing gloves.

An alternative would be the ability to export scenario data (like damaged and sunk ships, supply levels of bases, status and locaton of LCUs) to excel. I'd be happy to make the files myself, but please don't make me enter all that data manually.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: dtravel
"Irregular regulation." You don't like that? Strange, I would have thought that was right up your alley. [:D]

Never say "irregular regulation" to an old person.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: dtravel
"Irregular regulation." You don't like that? Strange, I would have thought that was right up your alley. [:D]

Never say "irregular regulation" to an old person.

*hands Past one of his bottles of Metamucil capsules*

[Gen.Hoepner]

Well, for me after witp, I've had enough of Pacific theatre. I want something similar for Europe. WIR2 or whatever, along with Bombing the Reich or something could be just great. But, clearly, turn based game. 1-day turns. full of details ( lets' say 1 hex-10 miles) huge maps, huge forces, very tough learning curve...so to say a witp for the european/russian theatre

[Terminus]

Too bad that's such a long way off now...

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Too bad that's such a long way off now...

In a galaxy SO far away...

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Never say "irregular regulation" to an old person.
[/quote]
*hands Past one of his bottles of Metamucil capsules*
[/quote]
Heck, sonny, I tried this stuff long ago. I'm a regular Roto-Rooter customer now...

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Well, for me after witp, I've had enough of Pacific theatre. I want something similar for Europe. WIR2 or whatever, along with Bombing the Reich or something could be just great. But, clearly, turn based game. 1-day turns. full of details ( lets' say 1 hex-10 miles) huge maps, huge forces, very tough learning curve...so to say a witp for the european/russian theatre

Personally, I don't care if it's the in-laws fighting the distant relatives, let's have a little work on creating a decent AI - and no "well, no AI will give you a good game after you learn how to play" excuses, either.

AI is just about the hottest topic going in the computer biz these days. I don't see wargame designers putting in the time and effort necessary to improve their products. How many go to the frequent artificial intelligence design conventions and composia? How many subscribe to the research results coming from those on the "cutting edge" of AI design?

I dunno, folks, back in the '80s, the promise was, "computer wargames can give you a challenge when you don't have a human to play against." I see no evidence that this promise is being fulfilled by the computer wargame design business at large. Some few have tried to step up and be innovative (Brad Wardell in GalCivII, AGEOD in BoA, for example), but what I see in general is "same old, same old."