WiR 3.1 a balanced version?

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Thu Oct 11, 2001 8:47 pm

Originally posted by Micha:
The Luftwaffe played an important role in the german Blitzkrieg successes, so I think it is generally correct that in WIR the german planes cause a lot of damage. But in my opinion they are far too effective against units in good defensive positions. For instance, in a PBEM game against Lorenzo I had a strong, well entrenched army in Kharkov. He bombarded it heavily and then sent a Panzer Korps there. It already started in a low-supply hex, had to fight and plot five steps and arrived at Kharkov with only a handful of tanks left. Still it managed to shatter my garrison at the first attack. This must have happened because of the prior bombardment, but I think this is unrealistic.

I think you would have to test this to show it was the air bombardment that did it, by itself. Number one, when did this happen? If it was through about August 1941, which would be a very quick advance, the Soviets are suffering from a hidden penalty that makes high readiness units shatter easily (the same as the Axis blizzard penalty). Also, the leadership and Op level would have an impact.

To test it, you would want to replicate if possible the defending situation, especially the entrenchment level and readiness if possible. The carry out the air attacks with again a similar number of planes on both sides. Then end the turn without the actual ground attack so that the defender can be checked. The actual best solution would be to save the Axis turn after this, if there is no secure PBEM mode and look at the defender strength in the editor. I would be happy to do this if you set it up (the original save game from before this is ideal, especially if there is no secure PBEM, but even if there is it is okay as long as I get the password).

I can set up a test, but it will not prove anything except that my test ends up whichever way.

Thanks.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 1:17 am

Originally posted by RickyB:
A couple of things about the changes I want to make to the 1941 set up, and the air power. Regarding the 1941 setup changes around Lvov, they will be minor but hopefully allow the Soviets to salvage some of the units. I created the current setup based on knowledge of what armies the divisions were assigned to and what frontage these armies held. However, I very limited information as to where specific divisions were deployed, including how far off the frontier they were. Thus, it would be entirely reasonable to move one or two Soviet corps back, and maybe a tweak to the Axis to prevent the Hungarians from helping on the first turn (they didn't really do much the first week or two, if anything).

Regarding air power, it is much weaker now than in the 1.x versions that were originally released. It used to be that a bombing attack by 20 planes against an unentrenched defender could frequently kill 1500 men (7500 with the new loss ratios). Try it now and you will not see losses like that. These kind of air attacks would also cause lots of disruption to the ground units, which are much rarer now. Now you can use 200 bombers and you will not cause the losses that 20 bombers could do before.

It seems to me to be more an issue of entrenchments not helping as much as before, even though they have not been changed directly I believe. It seems like one "bug" Arnaud fixed was one giving extra entrenchment levels to units in some terrain that did not make sense. Maybe this was a change on purpose from before and it is having an impact. I just am not sure, but even in this version the entrenchments do not seem to help as much as I would expect. It seems very tough from what I have seen to inflict the heavy losses on the attacker that the early versions had. I am not sure, but it is not directly the Luftwaffe causing problems, I don't believe.

I dont know exactly whats the problem Rick. I think the Luftwaffe is more decisive in this game than others (russo german war from schwerpunkt and others) and now han been increased in the new version. But just its an opinion and it seems Im the only one. So no problem next issue.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 1:22 am

Hey Loki, fear?

Josan " crushing Lokies " <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:11 am

Originally posted by Josan:
I dont know exactly whats the problem Rick. I think the Luftwaffe is more decisive in this game than others (russo german war from schwerpunkt and others) and now han been increased in the new version. But just its an opinion and it seems Im the only one. So no problem next issue.

The airpower is definitely stronger than most other games on the area, which is part of the reason its power was supposed to have been reduced. I am getting smashed in a game now, but I am also getting hit by 300+ He177s at a time
<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> . I just don't know, but seeing what happens with your opponent combat is so tough because of the terrible replay problems that it could be a real problem. The only true test is running it and seeing what the results are directly. I will play with it myself and see (not with MYSELF) but if you can show something where entrenchments for example are dropping through just airpower, that would be great. Again, there may be a problem with the entrenchment routine causing it drop when it shouldn't, from air or ground combat.

We definitely don't want to ignore it if there are strong lines being crushed. That gives me an idea of using the 1943 campaign to test it, as there are strong lines already in place there.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:42 am

Originally posted by RickyB:

The airpower is definitely stronger than most other games on the area, which is part of the reason its power was supposed to have been reduced. I am getting smashed in a game now, but I am also getting hit by 300+ He177s at a time
<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> . I just don't know, but seeing what happens with your opponent combat is so tough because of the terrible replay problems that it could be a real problem. The only true test is running it and seeing what the results are directly. I will play with it myself and see (not with MYSELF) but if you can show something where entrenchments for example are dropping through just airpower, that would be great. Again, there may be a problem with the entrenchment routine causing it drop when it shouldn't, from air or ground combat.

We definitely don't want to ignore it if there are strong lines being crushed. That gives me an idea of using the 1943 campaign to test it, as there are strong lines already in place there.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Im playing now with Mist ( well waiting soviet response that seems is delayed by a bug) and I suppose in any time of the game the entrench dropping will happen. He can report to you when happen.

Its a pleasure to talk with you Rick.

Josan.

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 3:17 am

Josan

Just got back to the computer. Forgive me for being so bellicose, several bourbons turned me into a loudmouth.
I am playing 3 games already so i must pass up your offer to a game. I'm sure it would have been an interesting one if played.

All the best

Nick

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 9:34 am

Paul, I beg to differ with you about Soviet artillery.

The German army actions of 1941 caused severe disruption of soviet artillery production to the extent that soviet units in 1942 were very short of all types of field artillery. They had to use large mortars (80mm & 120mm) to make up for the lack of regular field pieces. It was not until late in 1942, just before the Novemeber Uranus operation (don't you like the soviet name for that operation <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> ), that their artillery production started to make up for prior losses. After that, just like tank production, artillery production just kept on increasing.

PMCN · Post by **PMCN** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 11:41 am

Mike, we are not dissagreeing. By the end of 42 the soviets had massive amounts of artillary available to be committed to their offensives (I am talking the winter 42 spring 43 offensive). Some of this came from reducing the organic artillary component of divisions themselves but most of it came from the fact they started basicly a cottage industry in artillary production, this was largely mortars but mortar rounds caused by and large most of the casulties in the war anyway. Now in WIR this does not happen and for most of the game the soviet is severly limited by the number of surviving artillary factories (I have only ever played as the soviet till 43 and that was only against the AI), I make them a priority just after heavy industry for movement. And the factories remain at the 5 or 6 level for the most part. It is hard to see this when playing the soviets against the AI since the artillary losses are never as high as when playing again a human. The people involved in human vrs human games can comment but I suspect what they will say is that artillary is scarce on the ground.

Micha · Post by **Micha** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 1:00 pm

RickyB,

unfortunately I can't test it because I don't have the save file anymore.
Maybe you are right and the unit shattered because of that high-readiness bug. But that can only happen if the unit is forced to retreat, right? I know that the Soviets suffer penalties in 1941, but still I think the attacker's strength was not high enough for the necessary 10+:1 odds unless the air attacks managed to cripple my army.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 1:19 pm

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:
Josan

Just got back to the computer. Forgive me for being so bellicose, several bourbons turned me into a loudmouth.
I am playing 3 games already so i must pass up your offer to a game. I'm sure it would have been an interesting one if played.

All the best

Nick

Also Im sure it would have been interesting. I think you are skilled player so perhaps in another time.

All the best for you too.

Josan.

IKerensky · Post by **IKerensky** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 4:07 pm

About the varrying soviet division strenght. I want to point out that, according to my favorite sources ( Fire in the East/ Scorched Earth from GRD ), the soviet division have strength varying from 3 to 6 ( just 1 6 mainly 3-4 ) nd the german grade 7 to 8.

So we can use the FITE/SE OOB to adjust the experience of the soviet forces. I would suggest that every 3 rating divison get 30 exp, 4 rating 40, 5 rating 50 and the 6 rating 60. For tank division that is different matter cause of different gear and it is hard to tell wich one got what exp. But southern russian division are really efficient, being just as powerfull as germans in attack, and a lot weaker in defence.

Just a sugestion but from now on I feel like 1941 is far too much a cakewalk for germans, blitzkrieg wasn't that easy , and if the vast majority of Pz div where depleted by september it wasn't only because of the weather and supply line.

PMCN · Post by **PMCN** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 4:50 pm

For Micha and your shattering unit problem.

I think what you saw was a command failure. My suspicion is that the defence was commanded by Stalin from STAVKA and STAVKA had no OPs left in this case your readiness gets severly reduced (low leader skill, outside of command range and 0 OPs) so very few squads would show up to fight.

Also there is the chance that if the german leader is good that the Pz division will get a readiness boost for this battle only which means that a large number of its infantry and artillary might have been available.

To shatter a unit you need to go over 100:1 odds and for that you need to significantly effect the readiness of the troops and air strikes will not do that. And even so the air effectiveness is significantly reduced from v1.13 where such things were common.

Also there is something about attempting to retreat but failing a leader check in which case the unit shatters (even if the odds are not so high). Again if Stalin was in command you can see this. I sum all that up as the "Stalin Effect" although if you have a dunderhead in STAVKA it is much the same.

I have certainly taken a city by storm with a Pz Korps that has moved 5 hexs in the blitzkreig phase. To prevent that you need strong entrenchments and AT guns plus artillary.

I have seen a russian unit with 2 Tank Corps, and 3 Inf Division defending in a scale 3 entrenchment behind a river shatter due to the Stalin effect (their readiness was over 80). I have seen Kursk attacked by a single Inf Korp and it also shattered (1 Cav, 3 Inf, 1 AT, 1 ART) with no prelimanary air attacks. And in v1.13 I have seen a scale 9 entrenchment reduced by air bombardment something I would think impossible now. I have also seen Kiev last for weeks against 5 Inf Korp attacks supported by lots of air and with airstrikes...I had not been able to break the russian line to isolate it. But I am not sure why that was occuring but the Russians simply refused to retreat even when hit with 8:1 or better attacks.

I am never sure that the game is doing the calculations correctly all the time since the combat results are often hard to follow. And such a code bug would be hard to spot.

The other question was the unit in supply and was this in a major or minor city? Those two things are also important.

I have seen in v3.101 that starting in week 3 or so the numbers of soviet shatters begins to increase but I do not know why exactly.

Micha · Post by **Micha** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:26 pm

Paul McNeely,

The unit was definitely in supply. The city in question was, as I said, the major city of Kharkov.
As far as I know, a unit can only shatter if it was forced to retreat in the battle. I am not an expert in this, but in my opinion it is just not realistic that a badly worn-out Panzer Korps can take a major city with a strong, well-entrenched garrison by storm, even in 1941 and after heavy air attacks.
Btw I am not writing this because I am angry. That game is over and I would have lost it anyway.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:28 pm

Originally posted by Ivan GREYWOLF Kerensky:
About the varrying soviet division strenght. I want to point out that, according to my favorite sources ( Fire in the East/ Scorched Earth from GRD ), the soviet division have strength varying from 3 to 6 ( just 1 6 mainly 3-4 ) nd the german grade 7 to 8.

So we can use the FITE/SE OOB to adjust the experience of the soviet forces. I would suggest that every 3 rating divison get 30 exp, 4 rating 40, 5 rating 50 and the 6 rating 60. For tank division that is different matter cause of different gear and it is hard to tell wich one got what exp. But southern russian division are really efficient, being just as powerfull as germans in attack, and a lot weaker in defence.

Just a sugestion but from now on I feel like 1941 is far too much a cakewalk for germans, blitzkrieg wasn't that easy , and if the vast majority of Pz div where depleted by september it wasn't only because of the weather and supply line.

I agree with you that FITE/Scorched Earth is an excellent game with an accurate OB and rules. The Europa Series are so great and the OBs are good source of information ( and The Europa Magazine) Obviously shock me the great difference between FITE and WiR if both games are a simulation of the eastern front.The strongholds and entrenchment positions are very difficult to attack in FITE ( no AECA but ATEC you know)and if panzers managed to break they pay a prize in losses even in summer(required losses at least). This dont happen in Wir at the beginning and maybe should be looked. But also I believe is better no compare the ratings of the units between the two games. In fact in this case the units in Wir have more information than FITE (its a computer game I know).

Josan.

P.S.How long is the wait of the Scorched earth new release and Grand Europa, true?

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:59 pm

Originally posted by Micha:
RickyB,

unfortunately I can't test it because I don't have the save file anymore.
Maybe you are right and the unit shattered because of that high-readiness bug. But that can only happen if the unit is forced to retreat, right? I know that the Soviets suffer penalties in 1941, but still I think the attacker's strength was not high enough for the necessary 10+:1 odds unless the air attacks managed to cripple my army.

Regarding the odds, the shatter can happen at any level I believe, as long as the defender suffered fairly heavy casualties in the fire phases and was at high readiness. It basically ends up at extremely low CV which is one of the key criteria for a shatter, I believe. 100 squads with heavy artillery support attacking 1000 squads with no artillery could cause this in the right case.

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: RickyB ]</p>

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sat Oct 13, 2001 2:15 pm

Observation

Is Ver3.1 ballanced? Once again as in most wargames it dependes on the relative skill of the players involved. We can try to be objective but our little blunders may be falsely interpreted as imballance. (humans are very good at this)
Personally i think if i defeat both Varjager and Muzrub as the Germans then the game is out of whack.(Poor me, my ego is just not big enough) If i beat only one it is ballanced and if i lose both it is unballanced.
Are you listening my opponents? I hope so cause i'm going to give it everything i've got.

Nick

GulGnu · Post by **GulGnu** » Sat Oct 13, 2001 3:17 pm

Getting creamed as the Russians right now against Jesus - Moscow and Leningrad gone by late november. I do know that earlier versions were quite a bit tougher on the Germans...

/GulGnu

PMCN · Post by **PMCN** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 1:32 pm

Micha,
Sorry for forgetting which city it was but when the number of posts is high it is not so easy to check.

From what you say I think you got hit by the "stalin effect". Also to realy see what is going on we would need to know what was specifically involved.

Your troops suffere sever readiness losses, are at low OP levels and probably are incompetently commanded. In real life none of these things are good.

For your unit to have shattered the odds have to be in excess of 100:1 and a command failure in the retreat must occur.

To force a retreat from a well entrenched city requires high odds in the first place. So if you had a strong force then that Pz Korp was not weak or burnt out when it hit you. If it was a low combat strength then the only way it could work is if your effective readiness was very low which is more than possible unfortunately.

The Pz Korp may have had few tanks but probably a lot of guns and infantry. Your infantry (40% exp and 50% readiness say) is only contributing 20% to the defence. Something like 200 Squads show up to fight supported by 20 guns. These are then ground up by the german fire until very little is left.

Forcing a well dug in force to retreat is very hard, in supply is even harder, I never attack a major city that is in supply...I have seen Kiev stand off 5 strong Inf Korps and massive airstrikes (although I have no idea if the player in question was cheating in someway as I am not up on all the ways of manipulating the game). The other question is very simple...was it a random fluke?

I am also not sure if the entrenchements are working properly. They are supposed to divide the casulties by some fraction of the entrenchment factor and so you should not suffer significant losses and so even if few of your troops show up then you should have more of them left over at the end. Also there is something about the readiness loss calculation that is bugged with high readiness units being more subject to shatter than low. Although there may be other issues on Arnaud´s plate at the moment making sure that the combat routines work and more importantly that the random number generator is random (unlike in PACWAR where it anything but) is much more important to me at least. Another good question is if the people in 2by3 are reading this since they would be getting lots of free advice on what people would like in the new game.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Oct 17, 2001 12:05 pm

Originally posted by RickyB:

...
I think you would have to test this to show it was the air bombardment that did it, by itself. Number one, when did this happen? If it was through about August 1941, which would be a very quick advance, the Soviets are suffering from a hidden penalty that makes high readiness units shatter easily (the same as the Axis blizzard penalty). Also, the leadership and Op level would have an impact.
...

Where is this hidden penalty described?
I have had units entrenched behind the Don (Kiew area). They have had lvl 5 and lvl 4 entrenchement. They were composed of 1 Tank Div, 3 Inf Div. The combatvalue shown was 45 to 65. Readiness was about 70% to 80%. They have stopped the germans (computer) at the Don. But in September 41 one Pz Corps managed to force a retreat on a unit that have held any previous attack. The strange thing is, that this Pz Corps have tried for weeks on this Unit and failed all the time. Now it was weeker than ever and my unit was stronger but it managed to punch through.
The next turn I sealed off the Pz Corps and within 2 weeks it has surrendered.
A similar strange "retreat" occurs to me when defending near Vyasma. A lvl 6 entrenched unit attacked by a weaker german unit retreated without reason. My losses were incedible high, germans only have had minor losses.

One word to the Luftwaffe: The Luftwaffe has allways been strong in WIR. In V1.11 it was stronger than it is today.
What really causes headache for russia are the now increased losses of aircraft on the ground.
But now Bombers don't easily abort their attack, leaving opportunities for the russian to kill german bombers on the ground. And even 50 Bombers that make it through can destroy with a little luck 100+ bombers.

So..I have no experience playing WIR PBEM but I am interested in a game. I volunteer playing the russians. (kind of masochistic <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> )
I want to learn something so I need someone patient with my faults.
What "houserules" exist and are useful?

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Harry ]</p>