Mushrooms over Maizuru: Chickenboy (J) vs. AcePylut (A)

[Bif1961]

It might be they were fully supplied at the time of the attack but won't be again since it now reads 19.

[Lecivius]

In any event, I bet it bent his cookies [:D]

[AcePylut]

I've been out of supplies for about a week now. I know I didn't have any when the turn began.

And if it couldn't get any worse from CB....

April 4th: Wake Island

IJN (2) BB 4 (CA) + DD's bombard Wake.

Then, in the afternoon/evening phase, another invasion occurs. My out-of-supply CD's light up the invasion ships again (heavily damaged at least 4 transports, 2 of them are on fire). Not too many troops make it ashore, but it still triggers an auto-shock.

During the combat phase, the assault collapsed and the invading unit fragment was destroyed.

My Marines on Wake - they still persist. I have a 2 DD 2 AK transport fleet sitting about 8 hexes NE of Wake. If I can get a break, I will send them in there (If I don't get a break, well, thanks for the effort boys, we'll get you back after the war). If I can get another 500-1000 supplies on the island, I'd be happy. If I could unload both ships and put 3-4 thousand on the island, even better.... but most likely I won't get any on the island and my fleet will get sunk. I'll trade 2 AK's for another 2 weeks of survival at Wake, that's for sure.

If anything, the troubles CB is having at Wake is to hammering his psyche in regards to his invasion ability, and hopefully he cancels all further invasions while he finishes wrapping up the DEI.

He has sunk about 5-10 ships in the "Townsville to PM" corridor, so he knows I've been working "something" at Port Moresby, so maybe he'll think PM is more defended than Wake, and not go for PM.

[rustysi]

so he knows I've been working "something" at Port Moresby, so maybe he'll think PM is more defended than Wake, and not go for PM.

Its so much easier to go for PM overland than it was IRL that its really a viable option in the game. So beware....

[rustysi]

As for Wake, his problem is he seems to have underestimated the forces you have on the island. That and a probable lack of strong ground forces in the region. At least those that could be easily accessed and shifted.

Multiple Naval Guard units don't exactly make a strong invasion force, and many of them don't exactly have very high experience ratings. They're good against second rate troops like the Dutch in the SRA, but beyond that, eh.

[AcePylut]

Yes there are a combination of learning experiences from Wake Island. I agree that I think he suspected the island to be lightly defended... as soon as I saw that sigint about a unit planning for a Wake Island attack, I moved in 2 of those Marine Arty Defense units. I also moved in 2 AMC ships and 120 mines, plus about 8 subs. I've been building forts since day 1. If only I had dumped about 20-30k of supplies on the island instead of 5-6k, though, I'd still most likely be in supply. (that's my learning experience, the supplies went a heck of a lot faster than I thought they would. I suppose those 5" CD guns, the 155mm guns, I suppose their ammo takes up a lot of supplies hehehehe cuz they've been firing at ships non stop for about 2 weeks now)


I'm not sure if the mines have actually hit anything (haven't heard any "mine" sounds), and lawd knows the subs haven't hit squat yet, despite launching enough steel to build a bridge between Wake and Kwaj Atoll.

Here are the results of the latest turn. ChickenBoy is definitely churning over this one. I think he'd have fared better if his invasion was able to use both phases to unload, but the invasion TF arrived in the afternoon and only unloaded for one phase... and...



Ground combat at Wake Island (136,98)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 1279 troops, 10 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 131

Defending force 2882 troops, 137 guns, 10 vehicles, Assault Value = 91

Assault collapses, survivors seek cover

Japanese ground losses:
1152 casualties reported
Squads: 34 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 71 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 13 (13 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Assaulting units:
144th Infantry Regiment
64th Naval Guard Unit
67th Naval Guard Unit
62nd Naval Guard Unit
84th Nav Gd /1
17th Naval Construction Battalion

Defending units:
3rd Marine Defense Battalion
Wake (Det.) Defense Battalion
Wake USN CPNAB
4th Marine Defense Battalion


------

There goes most of that naval guard unit.

At the very least, this Island is probably causing CB to pull all available assets in the South Pac, over to Kwaj, to "finish 'er off once and for all".

[rustysi]

lawd knows the subs haven't hit squat yet, despite launching enough steel to build a bridge between Wake and Kwaj Atoll.

[:D]

As to his Wake op, he needs to re-evaluate his approach. Heck at this point without air opposition from you he can hit the place with Netties from the Marshall's. Get a decent ground unit in there and the job is done.

When I want a full day of offloading before an attack I usually stop my amphib TF one hex away, land the next day. All's ashore and attacking. I would imagine CB knows this, as he's been around a while.

This whole thing smacks of his extended attacks into New Caledonia and the Fiji Islands. Yes, they put you more on your heels for a bit, but they stretch out his forces so as to be less supportive of one another.

[FlyByKnight]

Hey Ace. I'm going through this AAR now. It's been a worthwhile read so far, observing your thought process and seeing two experienced players face each other down like this. Much to learn from here.

[Bif1961]

Looks like his landing bonus has expired before this landing on Wake.

[AcePylut]

Thanks CharlieVane and Bif and Rusty...

I'm pretty sure the invasion bonus ended. IIRC it ends on April 1.

I forgot about the Netties being able to reach Wake - the lack of use makes me think he doesn't have any in the region. I don't think he expected the island to be as defended as I have it. I get the sense that he's realized that the "half measures" aren't working at Wake, and very soon he's coming with the "full measure". That's fine, I expect it, my defenders have done their job.

I doubt he's going to invade Tabiteuea now - after his "on the fly" invasion failed of a couple months ago, he probably suspects it to be much more heavily defended (it isn't). If he does come for Tab, no doubt he's bringing the "full measure", i.e. multiple divisions... and if he does, that's fine, but I really want to keep these islands in my hands! Holding these islands gives me 2-3 more approach axis to choose from when the tide of the war turns.



So currently....

In China, my forces are more or less organized and are making fighting withdrawals near Sian. Changsa region is non-combative, but lots of moving activity on both sides. Over by Kweilin, he has minimal troops and I have plenty enough to withstand what he has, assuming he brings no other units to the region.


In India - I have more units on Ceylon, probably can take on 3-4 divisions (as long as I'm on defense). My secret heavy bomber base is at Level 5 so that's good. Given the new intel on Calcutta, I've re-evaluated what I was doing and made changes. I formed up a reserve force (now that I'm getting reinforcements in from Aden) that can rail to any hotspot. I've reinforced a couple of the ports by Calcutta (Chittagong, Cox's Bazaar).

In Oz, nothing more is going on except I'm all set in the Perth region, if he invades here.

In the South Pac, I've noticed that he keeps bringing "stuff" into Suva and is base building. I'm going to start moving closer to this island from Pago Pago, until I'm in fighter range. Then I will commence attacks against this base. This base is at the end of his supply line, so this is the one I need to punch and keep punching to suck up his supplies, fuel, etc. I have an easy supply line.... Tahiti to Pago Pago to the bases closer to Suva. Also, by starting to focus on Suva, I'll hope to keep his mind occupied while I really invade somewhere else (in about 9-12 months or so).

Adak - my INF Division is unloading nicely. With it unloading, I turned "on" the Port and Airfield base building. I had shut them off when they got 90% of the way to lvl 1 (I didn't want any intel to end up in CB's hands informing him I was doing "anything" here). Tomorrow they should both be level 1. I'll continue building them up to level 2, then flip back to building forts.

[jdsrae]

A few thoughts on your Wake defenders, I just re-read the ground combat section of the manual:
1. Even when zero supply your troops seem to fight at 25% efficiency
2. You have a large artillery advantage. I’m not 100% but 144th Regt probably only had about 12 x 75mm Howitzers or similar to start. The Naval Guard units only had a few 81mm mortars each. Artillery fires first so you probably disabled or destroyed a lot of his artillery then infantry before they got a chance to fire..
3. After his failed attacks disruption will be high and morale dropping
4. It doesn’t look like he has any combat engineers. If 144th has any it will only be a few. Naval guard units are not assault troops as they have no combat engineers or real artillery
5. So picture 6000+ Japanese troops (mainly riflemen) caught on the beach on an atoll, with however many 155mm guns you have firing airburst HE over their heads... that beach would not be a pretty sight
6. The result shows that your troops are almost impossible for him to hit behind level 4 forts, probably because all that was left to fire were some demoralised rifle squads

Has anyone done any testing on how much supply different units/ devices use in combat?
Alfred’s Logistics 101 only mentions supply used to sustain troops, ie: feed them. I assume it is different for Bombardment, Deliberate and Shock attack and is some factor of the device load costs but haven’t found anything specific on this on the forum.

Can you use your SST Argonaut and sisters to trickle some supply in?

[AcePylut]

I know that an out of supply unit fights at 25% efficiency, and everything you've said makes sense.

I do have quite a few arty guns in my units.

[AcePylut]

My SST's don't finish their conversions for another 11 days.

I accidentally forgot to call back a small 2 DD tf that was inbound for Wake - mainly to try and sink some riffraff that's been troubling my subs. I hope there aren't any CA's around Wake when they go in.

[HansBolter]

US Fleet submarines have 60 cargo capacity. You don't need to wait for the dedicated transport sub types to start using subs to get supplies to locales you can't send surface ships to.

In October '45 in my game most of my sub fleet has been relegated to supply hauling as there is nothing left plying the seas for them to sink. [;)]

30-40 fleet subs would deliver a decent chunk of supply to the Wake defenders.

[AcePylut]

Subs are a good idea, forgot about the transport capability of the non-SST subs. I just sent 6 of them to Wake.

On the last turn, CB did say that he didn't expect the island to be this heavily defended.

In this last turn, nothing happened across the board, except one of my President AP's got torped and sank by Christmas Island. His subs are a pain in the butt. Even if I put 10 PC's and DD's into a convoy, it doesn't seem to matter.

[rustysi]

On the last turn, CB did say that he didn't expect the island to be this heavily defended.

As I suspected.

Even if I put 10 PC's and DD's into a convoy, it doesn't seem to matter.

Keep in mind that leaders and crew experience have a big effect. Pretty sure U.S. forces are pretty weak in both at this time of the war.

[rustysi]

Subs are a good idea, forgot about the transport capability of the non-SST subs. I just sent 6 of them to Wake.

Just one more thing. If he wises up and gets Netties on your port (to subdue your CD's), these subs could be very vulnerable. Its my understanding that they unload rather slowly (don't know if its so, just what I've read). At any rate if he does so, beware.

I commend your attempt to assist your units, but I think its a lost cause, eventually.

My preference for such ops is hit-and-run, or preemptive ops. You did well, but now it looks like you're going to hand the victory, and Victory Points, back to him.

Its all about the VP's.

[rustysi]

Oh, and just one more more thing.[:D] Take the lesson offered here by CB. Proper recon preceding any op is necessary, and will pay back great dividends.

[HansBolter]

The truth is that the SSTs don't have any more cargo capacity than the other fleet subs with 60 capacity.

The difference for the SSTs is that they also have a troop capacity.

Argonaut: 110 troop capacity/ 60 cargo capacity

Nautilus & Narwal: 70 troop capacity/ 60 cargo capacity

It's the cross loading of cargo into troop space that allows them to carry more cargo.

[AcePylut]

"Just one more thing. If he wises up and gets Netties on your port (to subdue your CD's), these subs could be very vulnerable. Its my understanding that they unload rather slowly (don't know if its so, just what I've read). At any rate if he does so, beware.

I commend your attempt to assist your units, but I think its a lost cause, eventually.

My preference for such ops is hit-and-run, or preemptive ops. You did well, but now it looks like you're going to hand the victory, and Victory Points, back to him.

Its all about the VP's. "

Ultimately, it is a lost cause, I have no doubt about that. And while this game is and always will be, about the VP's... it's "how" you get those VP's.

I'm entirely willing to "lose the VP match" over Wake Island, but don't think I will. I've already killed, at the very minimum, at least 3-4 thousand Japanese soldiers. That number should increase. I've sank, by my estimates, around 7-8 transports. So even if I lose a couple of xAK's here - as long as they sink *after* dumping supply on the island - I come out ahead.

If I can get a couple thousand supplies on the island and extend the battle another 2-3 weeks past what I'd gain from an estimated "non-supplied" last stand, then, while I would have lost the battle for the island from a tactical level, I've won the battle on the Operational and Strategic Level.

The longer I hold out, the more CB focuses attention to Wake. The longer I hold out, the more he will divert additional units (land, sea, air) to capturing the island. The longer I hold out, the more he gets the belief that "day-yum is every island going to be this damn tough, maybe I should just start digging in and forgo any further expansion".

So, while one may look at the VP gain/loss and say "Ace lost 1000 VP, CB lost 800 VP, so CB won", this is from a tactical viewpoint. I'm focused on the Strategic Level. Everything I do starts at the Strategic level and filters down to the tactical, not vice versa.

To note - the invasion of Wake was commenced on March 21st. There was a "2 week estimate" before the island fell, which I thought was about right. It's now April 9th/10th (can't remember exactly I'm at work). It's held out for three weeks and could easily go another 2 weeks (depending on how fast CB gets enginerds over to knock down my forts).

In that time, I've been able to push some units forward "without fear" to Pago Pago for an eventual move closer to Suva (I want to get into fighter range and start threatening Suva. He's been building up the islands, it's the end of his supply line, and the perfect spot to create a schwerpunkt to suck his assets while I make a 'real' move elsewhere, in late '42/early '42).

Tabiteuea was under siege from subs, surface ships, and the Mini-KB. It was out of supply. Forts were stuck at 2 and not building. But since March 21st, I've been able to get about 5k supply into the base, forts are at 3 and marching towards 4 rather quickly. Also, CB had a failed invasion on this island a couple months ago so he might be leery of attacking it again given the Wake Island issues. I know he's seen a lot of my ships going into and out of the base, so perhaps he thinks I'm reinforcing it like crazy (I'm not, I just a SeaBee unit and the 161st Inf Rgt). I was able to reinforce all the island leading to Tab (Canton, Baker, Christmas, etc.).

Adak Island went from being an empty base to a rapidly enlarging fortress. It's got a division of troops there, and now I will spread out east and west from Adak to provide those multiple interlocking air bases that are so necessary for a quality defense.

With CB having multiple BB's and the KB tied up around Wake, they aren't elsewhere blasting everything in sight.

A couple of units of Netties at Rabaul had effectively closed off Port Moreseby to re-supply and reinforcement. Those units aren't at Rabaul anymore. I'm running in four transports with around 15k supply to PM.



And funny enough, on the day of the initial invasion, one of CB's emails hinted that one of my subs had either seriously damaged or sank one of his carriers. During the turns replay, all I could note was that one of my subs fired and missed at a large fleet tanker. Tankers are easily mistaken for carriers... and perhaps my sub guys didn't note a hit... but dare I dream that I got something juicy???

In short, since March 21st, all his attention in the Pacific is on Wake, which has allowed me to do many things elsewhere that will (I'm hoping) be doubly beneficial in the long run. The longer I hold his attention (and units) at Wake, the better it is for me in the long run... and that, imho, is worth a couple of transports.

Now, if CB will make a mistake and give me a small gap in the siege of Wake, I can maybe find just the "right time" to run in some supplies. Ultimately, I doubt I'll have the opportunity to resupply the island, so we'll see. I know he's frustrated at himself over this op.

There's a new turn in my inbox... watch this be a shock attack that wipes the Wake defenders and makes all this discussion a moot point. lol.