TRP - World at War Released v0.8.19

[Lothos]

TRP World RC2 v0.8.13 is available on Discord (it is a Release Candidate)

Allot of balance changes in RC2 to help make the Pacific more interesting. Battleships and Dreadgnaughts can now do damage to soft and hard targets with shore bombardment and Artillery can hit ships. Some big changes to Amphibs so if you reach tech level 3 you can start doing 2 De-Entrench and if you reach level 5 they can do 3.

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# TRP 0.8.13 World
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- (New) UK, added popup for Strategic Advice to remind players to spend MPP to prepare defenses in the Pacific
- (New) USA, Gear up events adjusted so that they come in a bit more earlier so USA will have more production and west coast will be at full strength
- (New) Experience Gain Reworked, all units reworked doing things like carriers attacking empty resource locations will no longer give experience
- (New) USA, Doolittle Raid Decision has been added it will damage some of Japans Industry and give USA an NM boost
- (New) China, Burma Road split into 3 resources so its not as easy for Japan to shut it down with bombers
- (New) UK, will get a half strength destroyer represting the Norwegian Navy that escaped if Germany uses the decision chain to take Norway
- (New) Planes defensive abilities against other planes (including carriers) refactored, damage should be balanced if tech is equal.
- (New) Strategic Bombers, bombing against resources/supply will no longer increase and its max is 3
- (New) USA, Strategic Bomber Max lowered from 4 to 3
- (New) Escort Carriers no longer do damage to resource locations
- (New) Carriers, bombing against resrouces/supply set to a max of 1
- (New) Carriers, Spotting Land base increased to 3
- (New) Escort Carriers, Spotting Sea base lowered from 5 to 3
- (New) Subs, no longer use supply when defending
- (New) Afrika Corp Arrival has same trigger but also regardless of trigger will come sometime after Febuary 1941 (Prevent Allied player exploiting)
- (New) Settlements/Towns, increased Strategic Defense from 0 to 1
- (New) France, USSR & Italy can attach minors units to their HQs
- (New) Finland, all units gets the same bonuses as a Major from Doctrine Researches (Infantry Warfare etc...)
- (New) HQs, had base defense against all plane attacks increased from 0 to 1
- (New) HQs, Anti-Air upgrade tech added back in to a max of level 2
- (New) Malta Effect updated for new layout and also split into 3 sections Eastern, Central and Western Libya
- (New) Refactored Costs & Upgrades Costs most units
- (New) USA, Decision 300 where they send an Armor Corp to Egypt has been removed
- (New) China, Chenault removed from the leader list it is added by a decision later
- (New) Surface Ships no longer do resource damage
- (New) Dreadnought, Battleships can now do damage to soft and hard targets
- (New) Artillery can damage Surface Ships
- (New) Amphibs no longer de-entrench, instead for each tech level increase they will get .5 de-entrench rounded up.
- (New) Transports will get defensive bonuses against subs and planes per tech level researched
- (New) AA, for resources changed to the following (as a max)
--- Port: 1
--- Major Port: 2
--- Foritifed Town: 1
--- City: 1
--- Major City: 2
--- Capital: 2
--- Major Capital: 3
--- Fortress: 1
--- Major Fortress: 2
--- Fortification: 1 (yes these are fortifications built by engineers)

- (Map) North Africa revamped from Morroco to Egypt
- (Map) Fixed the sprites
- (Map) China, Mines near Chungking moved so if bombed it wont block supply
- (Map) China, Tongren changed to a Primary Supply
- (Map) Burma, Oil in hex 309,144 moved to 310,145
- (Map) Burma, Settlement added to hex 309,144
- (Map) USSR, Murmansk changed to a Major Port (so you can build AA)
- (Map) USSR, Murmansk was moved and map area redesigend to be more accurate
- (Map) UK, Gibraltar changed to a primary supply, added another port and redesigned the terrain
- (Map) UK, Gibraltar changed to a mega fortress and has the same abilities as Malta
- (Map) Alternate Capitals added to Algeria, Morocco, Libya and Egypt
- (Map) Crete reworked and its safer now to use it as an airbase
- (Map) China, made some adjustmetns near Sian to help Communist China keep their supplies up

- (OOB) China, Adjusted starting location of a few units that seem to be in the wrong spot

- (AI) UK, Fortification updated for new North Africa layout

- (Bug) China, can now build Infantry Divisions from the start of the game
- (Bug) UK, taking of Waterford, Cork and Limerick ports text for USA Mobilization fixed
- (Bug) China, Flying Tiger units will no longer show up twice
- (Bug) Japan, Malaya Convoy will no longer go through singapore but instead through Kota Bharu
- (Bug) Hex 414,195 had wrong weather zone
- (Bug) Hex 411,196 had wrong weather zone
- (Bug) Rail Guns will no longer De-Entrench to match TRP Europe
- (Bug) UK, Indian division that shows up in Cairo will now show up on the proper date.
- (Bug) Moroccoa, Algeria and Tunis removed event to have them switch sides if USA units present. It can cause issues in certain situations.

[Lothos]

I wanted to bring something up about playing a gentleman’s game and playing with morales.

There is a saying I made long ago that I tell people that play strategic board games (and computer games).

Most of the time you get the game you play which is not necessarily the game you want!

So, what does that mean?

Well, it means if you play super hardcore and exploit every nick in cranny defect in the game engine then don't complain if your opponent quits. It is no fun being on the receiving end of that and if you are playing against the AI and doing the same thing then do not complain the AI is too easy.

Every single strategy game that I can think of going back to the 1980s has something that can be exploited. It is up to you weather or not to use it.

Now with that said, when something like this is found in TRP I expect people to report it and if at all possible, give me screenshots (videos preferred, you can use ShareX to record them as its free) so that I can try to fix it.

I have been playing allot of PBEM games over the past few months (this is something I normally do not do) and 90% of them go just fine. I spend allot of my time teaching my opponent how to use combined arms and to go over strategies that work for me so they have a baseline to start creating their own.

One of the games I am playing right now we are in the fall of 1942 and the game is truly EPIC (I wish I had recordings) with my opponent playing the Axis and I am playing the Allies. We are having some serious fighting in Russia and in the Caucasus.

So back to my point

I recently had a PBEM game where early on I noticed my opponent doing some gamey things (knowing full well of the house rules) and I am playing the Axis.

First it started with my opponent hitting the Subs in the Spanish ports about 80% of the time. There was always an excuse, that he had an intel hit or was passing bye and saw my sub. Interestingly my subs stopped getting hit in Ports when I stopped going to the Spanish ports. Then Balthazor mentioned someplace about a house rule he add that the Allies could not even bomb the Spanish ports. After this experience I felt that his version of the house rules was better as it makes sense since the port is technically neutral and updated the official TRP house rule list with it.

Later on, in the same game my opponent did another "gamey thing" which caught me off guard. I have seen players use the Russian Subs in the Pacific for scouting (I personally never do it as I feel its gamey and it goes to what I said earlier in this post but to each their own). That in itself was not the issue what is the issue is when using those very same subs to block Japan’s invasion of Brunei (screenshot below)

SC3-WWII_World_at_War_QEvAF6vSd0.png (350.09 KiB) Viewed 991 times

That was strike 2 in the same game. I said nothing to the player and instead tried to invade from around it to which I got lucky and the unit still had 1 supply even though it took 2 turns to get to the capital instead of one.

Now after seeing this, I started getting upset. All of this time I been playing what I call a gentleman’s game. Not playing to win but to have fun and teach my opponent. In fact, at one point China was open for conquest due to my opponent not doing their early builds properly. Once I became aware of it, I told my opponent I would stop attacking in China so that he could recover as I wanted a fun game for both of us. It is not about winning but about having fun! (This is one example of me doing things like this several times).

So, let’s move on to the next game engine exploit.

As I am playing, I noticed an attack pattern coming out of my opponent in North Africa. There were no combined arms and in fact no strategy really at all. It was to fly a Maritime bomber across Northern Libya, find out where the HQs are and bomb the cities that were under them to make sure their supply was 0. Then any bombers that were left after that attack he would hit every other city in Libya.

This is when I noticed a major bug in TRP with Strategic Bombing!

Missions that were not intercepted he was getting full damage through of 5 (in areas at full supply 6+ damage) which is obscene. The game engine is not designed to handle this kind of damage and give the other side a chance to recuperate.

I told my opponent three times that this is a bug and exploit but he kept doing it and referred to Malta (not sure what Malta has to do with this but ok).

Even with this going on I tried to play a gentleman’s game. I attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7th (I really should not have cause USA Mobilization was really low) and the USA carriers were there to which I destroyed them all. Feeling the blow, I decided to give my opponent sometime to rebuild the USA fleet so we can have some fun in the Pacific. I ended up spending my time attacking useless Islands, at the same time this exploit in Libya is playing out.

When I finally said I had enough is when 2 major things happened.

First every single city/resource in Libya was at supply 1 or less. My opponent was suiciding ships to hit resources that his planes could not reach. This led me to look at the situation and I just deleted the Africa Corp. I thought to myself what is the point? He won’t have to actually fight and its easy NM for him.

Second, he invaded Tunisia to which I took it back with my Paras but then a new bug (with the Tunisia changing sides event) caused all the territory I just took back liberating Tunisia to the Allies (including the ports I just took). He was then able to just transport the entire American Army using the ports that where just given to him for free and wipe me out.

So then after these two events played out, I started to think. How will Italy play out. Is it actually going to be fun?

I came to the conclusion no! That this opponent has shown themselves to not play a gentleman’s game and that they are more than willing to use any exploit and then give a nice twist to it as to why. Think about how thin Italy is and how the game engine works. This bug with strategic bombers would be super easy to use in Italy and you could literally conquer the entire country of Italy in about 3 to 4 turns by simply taking Sardinia and using it as a base for your bombers to hit cities for 6+ damage per turn and in Italy you only need to hit 2 cities to cut the entire country off from supply (that’s not fun).

So, after this I resigned the game and I save my last screenshot for what is in the USA's build que.

You will notice, no carriers, no ships but every single Medium/Strategic Bomber the USA has. I wonder if the intent is to keep using the exploit.

Oysn0FeDum.png (543.32 KiB) Viewed 991 times

This is what I mean with my saying I said in the beginning.

Maybe my opponent started using dirty tactics because of how badly I was (and could have) beaten them. I really have no idea, what I do know is I was nice and patient the first two times they were doing this but I finally lost my lid.

You can only claim ignorance the first time something happens, you can't keep claiming it after you were told.

So, with that, I ask all PBEM players to keep in mind. This is a game about strategy and not about exploits. It is about putting up your strategic mind against another person (sort of like chess). If you want real satisfaction in a win you need to play by the spirit of the game and not by what gamey tactics you can use.


NOTE: After this several people in Discord admitted to using this tactic. For the love of the game please when people see something like this, say something to me so I can fix it! I am working on a fix for the Strategic Bug which is why I have the latest Release Candidates in Discord. Trying to find a good middle ground for Strategic Bombing.

[Durin69]

I now understand why you've placed some AA on the sites.

The Soviet Subs tactic is particularly despicable, I must say. It's limited in scope, but it would be an immediate show stopper for me, as representative of the mindset of my opponent.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I don't like this deal with the two Soviet Subs blocking Brunei while the USSR is not at war with Japan. This kind of eXploit was used in WaW by a few people by landing Japanese troops (While Japan is not in the war with the Western Allies) in Italian East Africa and blocking UK units from attacking Italian forces.

So two years ago, while testing with Elessar and his mammoth War in the Pacific Mod for WaW, this issue about the Soviet Pacific Fleet came up. I suggested an Exclusion Zone that restricts Soviet Naval Elements to the Sea of Japan and Sea of Okhotsk as seen here in the images. Its similar to your Adriatic Exclusion Zone.

Perhaps you can do similar here with TRP-World.
I had mentioned to you last year that perhaps you should check out WitP to see how Elessar handled the Pacific, and especially with designing in measures to stop obscure but possible annoying situations like this.

As for the other situations in your thread. Yes if you had pointed out a bug and your opponent ignored it and used it. That wrong. But, is that whats really going on here? Many of us pointed out that not being able to upgrade towns and ports with AA could lead to this supply squashing deal. It was Taxman, Duedman and I that started House-ruling Strategic Bombers to one strike each per turn. You did finally design that in and that's great. But, even with your recent changes to allow AA upgrades to Major cities, and the reduction of AA units themselves (Japan for instance gets 1, Germany 3), well of course an opponent will leverage that fact by going all in on bombers, as the example you have showed.

As for gamey play. I detest it. When SC-WW1 came out, there were a lot of loop-holes that some folks discovered. Some were used against me. So I made suggestions in the forums and tested with others to bring these eXploits to light. Because of that, I have dozens of patch credits in SC-WW1. Some of the changes fundamentally change the game for the better, especially in multi-player.

I will chat with you privately with other matters. With your opponent too.

[Jim D Burns]

If you set the game to max difficulty and lower the XP bonus to 1 XP (1.5 if really want it hard but 2 is very hard) then France will fall as the AI will rip through everything.

Don't want to harp on anything, but thought I'd post about my new game with the max difficulty set except for only +1 as you recommend. The screenshot is from the same turn 8 Aug as before, while Germany has made a bit more headway, there is still a long way to go. I did everything the same except I never built the special forces unit as Germany's +2 spotting range and the increased effectiveness of air power caused significantly more damage before the invasion of the low countries and caused me to spend a lot more MPP on repairs. I did rebuild 1 early destroyed corp to make up for it and it arrived this turn. I only have 411 MPP saved at this point so costs have gone up by 400 MPP to reach this point, though I also paid to upgrade everything this go around so assume 200 or so for that (just a guess). So far France hasn't collapsed and looks like it'll hold till mud arrives.

I would like to go max difficulty except for one issue, air power is brutal at +1 so I imagine it'd be ridiculous at +2. I've lost 2 corps to just bombings at +1 which seems crazy to me, air power did not destroy combat formations like that in the war. Any way to limit air strikes to a max of 2 per unit per turn in game? If it's something I can do to mod the mod I'd like to give +2 a try. But I assume it'd be insane at +2 and would lose 2 or more corps a turn just to air given how effective air power becomes with the increased exp.

[Lothos]

If you set the game to max difficulty and lower the XP bonus to 1 XP (1.5 if really want it hard but 2 is very hard) then France will fall as the AI will rip through everything.

Don't want to harp on anything, but thought I'd post about my new game with the max difficulty set except for only +1 as you recommend. The screenshot is from the same turn 8 Aug as before, while Germany has made a bit more headway, there is still a long way to go. I did everything the same except I never built the special forces unit as Germany's +2 spotting range and the increased effectiveness of air power caused significantly more damage before the invasion of the low countries and caused me to spend a lot more MPP on repairs. I did rebuild 1 early destroyed corp to make up for it and it arrived this turn. I only have 411 MPP saved at this point so costs have gone up by 400 MPP to reach this point, though I also paid to upgrade everything this go around so assume 200 or so for that (just a guess). So far France hasn't collapsed and looks like it'll hold till mud arrives.

I would like to go max difficulty except for one issue, air power is brutal at +1 so I imagine it'd be ridiculous at +2. I've lost 2 corps to just bombings at +1 which seems crazy to me, air power did not destroy combat formations like that in the war. Any way to limit air strikes to a max of 2 per unit per turn in game? If it's something I can do to mod the mod I'd like to give +2 a try. But I assume it'd be insane at +2 and would lose 2 or more corps a turn just to air given how effective air power becomes with the increased exp.

I always play with 1.5 XP bonus for the AI or 2.0 XP bonus (depending on how froggy I feel).

It is the only way for the AI to give me a challenge.

The same exact settings vs a human player and its a totally different experience.

The one good thing about giving the AI that high of a bonus is that (when playing the Axis especially) it forces you to learn how to use your combined arms. Meaning what planes to hit with first and what combination to use before you hit with the armor. Doing straight up attacks with Armor never works.

Most of the time, 1 Medium, 1 Tac then hit with the Armor works.

[Durin69]

I always know exactly on each front how many de-entrench strikes I can pull out from planes. Then, it tells me how many targets I can treat, then which ones should be prioritized. And only then do I start thinking (without any actual moves) about who will attack what, and in which order.

[El_Condoro]

The Soviet Subs tactic is particularly despicable, I must say. It's limited in scope, but it would be an immediate show stopper for me, as representative of the mindset of my opponent.

I have a different approach to these kinds of issues. To me, if the game allows me to do something, it's OK to do it. Paratroops dropping far behind the lines to take an NM target without any chance of support? Sure. Using garrisons in transports to scout? Sure. That US DD in WiE scouting for the UK? Sure. Not everyone has an extensive historical knowledge and what is 'gamey' might not be obvious to them. Trying to be generous here!

It seems to me that the easiest 'fix' for this submarine issue is to use a unit.txt script that fires when the USSR fully mobilizes to spawn the subs in. With other issues, find a way to script consequences for the 'abuses'. Those garrisons in transports are human fodder from somewhere, so use a national_morale.txt script to affect their country, or a decision.txt script to ping them MPPs. Japanese units in East Africa? Italian NM plummets and Japan pays a hefty MPP cost to transport them there against political opposition in Tokyo. That sort of thing. Not all 'abuses' will be caught but the less 'house rules', the better IMO.

[Durin69]

Some honesty here though. Not everyone has deep knowledge of WW2, but when you move neutral submarines against a coast to prevent a landing, you know what you are doing. You are abusing the game system and its limitations, period. It's borderline cheating for me. What is the next step? Crash the game after having done some scoutings? The line is thin.

[El_Condoro]

Absolutely, and that's why I think spawning the subs in when the USSR mobilizes is the best option. Can't misuse units that aren't on the map!

[Lothos]

Absolutely, and that's why I think spawning the subs in when the USSR mobilizes is the best option. Can't misuse units that aren't on the map!

That won't fix the problem. Soviets were at war with Germany but not Japan.

[El_Condoro]

Oh, yeah! Completely forgot that historical reality - Stalin DoWs Japan when they are already on the ropes to get Manchuria and a seat at the peace negotiations. There must be another solution...

[Lothos]

Oh, yeah! Completely forgot that historical reality - Stalin DoWs Japan when they are already on the ropes to get Manchuria and a seat at the peace negotiations. There must be another solution...

Russia DOWed Japan in 1945

[El_Condoro]

Yes, two days after Hiroshima. Cynical maybe.

[Lothos]

The Soviet Subs tactic is particularly despicable, I must say. It's limited in scope, but it would be an immediate show stopper for me, as representative of the mindset of my opponent.

I have a different approach to these kinds of issues. To me, if the game allows me to do something, it's OK to do it. Paratroops dropping far behind the lines to take an NM target without any chance of support? Sure. Using garrisons in transports to scout? Sure. That US DD in WiE scouting for the UK? Sure. Not everyone has an extensive historical knowledge and what is 'gamey' might not be obvious to them. Trying to be generous here!

It seems to me that the easiest 'fix' for this submarine issue is to use a unit.txt script that fires when the USSR fully mobilizes to spawn the subs in. With other issues, find a way to script consequences for the 'abuses'. Those garrisons in transports are human fodder from somewhere, so use a national_morale.txt script to affect their country, or a decision.txt script to ping them MPPs. Japanese units in East Africa? Italian NM plummets and Japan pays a hefty MPP cost to transport them there against political opposition in Tokyo. That sort of thing. Not all 'abuses' will be caught but the less 'house rules', the better IMO.

Paratroops dropping far behind the lines to take an NM target without any chance
- This does not bother me and easy to kill them

Using garrisons in transports to scout
- This does not bother me

That US DD in WiE scouting for the UK
- This does not bother me, I just said I dont personally do it cause I think its gamey but its one of those that its not a big deal

Japanese units in East Africa
- Why would this be an issue? You mean them sending troops to Ethiopia?

Neutral subs blocking a way to invade a specific hex
- This I have a problem with, it is a flaw in the game engine that cant be fixed. What it tells me is if they have a large engouh Navy they would surround certain places so you cant invade. A wall of neutral human shields per say. If you think thats is ok and perfectly fine then you and I should never PBEM.

[El_Condoro]

I wouldn't go that far. I saw the Gibraltar hexes being blocked in a recent online game and it didn't bother either player or me. It doesn't make sense, of course, but I expect it in my WiE PBEM games.

With the submarines and Brunei situation, I haven't played your mod, so I am probably not qualified to comment but my solution would be to send 2 Japanese ships to occupy them first - they can get there on turn 1 if they want to. The UK etc are not at war and nothing can move these ships until war is declared. With the USSR not at war, those subs will not stop an amphibious assault. However, and this is where my ignorance of your mod comes in, it also could mean that the Allied player will know all this and plan accordingly. Just a thought.

[Lothos]

I wouldn't go that far. I saw the Gibraltar hexes being blocked in a recent online game and it didn't bother either player or me. It doesn't make sense, of course, but I expect it in my WiE PBEM games.

With the submarines and Brunei situation, I haven't played your mod, so I am probably not qualified to comment but my solution would be to send 2 Japanese ships to occupy them first - they can get there on turn 1 if they want to. The UK etc are not at war and nothing can move these ships until war is declared. With the USSR not at war, those subs will not stop an amphibious assault. However, and this is where my ignorance of your mod comes in, it also could mean that the Allied player will know all this and plan accordingly. Just a thought.

Simple thought, how about Neutral Nations just dont block ports in that they can not use.

Simple solution!

If you feel its ok to use those kind of tactics then you get the game you play which may not be what you want.

[gigiduru]

In my opinion the best games are the ones where two people of the same mindset are playing.

If both of them have no issues with 'gamey' play then the game is fun. If both of them have issues with 'gamey' play then the game is fun.

But if one of them has issues with 'gamey' play and the other doesn't then there is a problem. In those cases i think the best solution is dialogue. If both parties can find a compromise - what is 'gamey' and what is less 'gamey' then the game can continue and the fun can happen .

But if they can't have a dialogue or they can't reach a compromise i see no issue with the game ending. This isn't a job or real life. A game that is no fun and produces only stress and unhapiness isn't worth playing.

So my point is basicly - TALK with your opponent in cases like this and try and reach a compromise. If that compromise cannot be reached don't be afraid to quit the game and search for an opponent that shares your vision of the game.

[Lothos]

I was also thinking, one exploit that could be done with this neutral ship thing.

Japan has no need for its Navy until end of 1941

They could sail their entire Navy to the English channel and literally block all British ships from getting it.

They can create a safe funnel so the Germans could move stuff back and forth and invade the UK and unless the UK declares war on them (which have big penalties in TRP) then their is nothing they can do about it.

That would be a weird game but most definately not fun for the Allied player.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

By Lothos:
Paratroops dropping far behind the lines to take an NM target without any chance
- This does not bother me and easy to kill them.
OCB opinion
-Agree. Doesn't bother me

Using garrisons in transports to scout
- This does not bother me
OCB opinion
-Disagree. This really bother me as its unrealistic, lazy, and a gamey way of scouting. period.

That US DD in WiE scouting for the UK
- This does not bother me, I just said I dont personally do it cause I think its gamey but its one of those that its not a big deal
OCB opinion
-Agree..I don't do that except possibly use US DD to mid Atlantic and no further east.

Japanese units in East Africa
- Why would this be an issue? You mean them sending troops to Ethiopia?
OCB opinion
Yeah a few folks think this is ok. In a few WaW MP matches reported on the forums in years past, some folks landed neutral Japanese (to W.Allies) troops into Somalia and blocked UK units from reaching Italian Units.
Totally unrealistic, gamey garbage play.