Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

[Mike Solli]

Loka, I got 9 brigades, 1 tk bn and 5 mortar units this turn.

Yesterday:
Armament: 166,865
Vehicle: 27508

Today:
Armament: 161,572
Vehicle: 26,380

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

What is your Vehicle production? And Armaments? Your comment about the "hit" taken when a unit arrived concerns me.

Mine? Vehicles are at 250, all on. Pool ~45k. Armaments are where they started, 620. I only have 250 armaments operating currently. Pool is now rising slowly, currently at 200k.

What I meant by the 'hit' is the cost to Japan when reinforcements arrive. Not sure how the whole thing is calculated. Japan is certainly not 'paying' for every device in every reinforcing unit, but there's a cost. Then there're those that don't come in at quite 100%. You need to pay for those to flesh out, as I'm sure you know.

Did I clear things up? Or muddy the waters further?[:D]

[rustysi]

Building, say, 600 Ha-45 engines a month for a long time is better than bumping the factory size to twice that and building 1200 a month for half the time. Saves 600k supply in factory size increase and the engines can't be bombed.

Yeah, been knida my philosophy as well. My Ha-3x factories were all producing numbers above what was needed. Some of the pools have now dropped significantly, but the need for said engines will fall off accordingly. Especially the Ha-34's and 35's. IIRC I got my 45's in the latter part of Nov.'42. Have five factories putting out ~300/month now, and am currently slowly building to x2 for now. Will reevaluate once I get to that point.

[Mike Solli]

Here are my engine numbers:

Engine: # factories / # in pool

Ha-32: 300 / 617
Ha-33: 420 / 884
Ha-34: 360 / 674 - this factory is changing to the Ha-45 on 1 Dec
Ha-35: 540 / 1141
Ha-45: 660 / 1176
Ha-60: 0 / 173 - Using up the engines on the D4Y2 (future Kamikaze) and the D4Y1-C

Edit: All the currently producing factories are producing more than are being used.

[rustysi]

Ha-32: 300 / 617
Ha-33: 420 / 884

From my head.. Oh, oh, trouble...[:D]

Ha-32: 165/1300 and change.
Ha-33: 225/1000 and change.

Ha-34: 360 / 674 - this factory is changing to the Ha-45 on 1 Dec
Ha-35: 540 / 1141

Ha-34: 300/775 and a few.
Ha-35: 450/850 and a bit.

The '34's are pretty stable now, gaining about one engine/day. Will leave it that way as the Helen transport will become available in May.

The 35's are dropping fast due to to engine bonus suck. I'll get the Zero 5c in April IIRC and that will cut most of the drop. Once the Oscar's are done the rest will disappear. Somewhere in between the two I'll probably have to make some adjustments as I won't need 15, 35's/day.

Ha-43: 90/~150

You don't show this engine. Currently needed for the first Jill. Then the late Ki fighter. The Jill usage will stop soon as the second model isn't that far off and uses the Ha-32. The fighter is far off, so the pool should grow quite large by the time this plane starts the bonus suck. Will see how it goes.

Ha-45: 660 / 1176

Ha-45: ~290/530

Frank is in the engine bonus suck stage. Will start production, late March. One Frank R&D factory fully repaired, another close. The oddball 55 factory is at 39 repaired. The other three were late entries and have a long way to go.

Ha-60: 0 / 173

Ha-60 30/~170

I've had this one engine factory in production since the start. The intent was to produce both the Judy recon and bomber. Once I hit ~125 recon and have my carriers loaded out it will stop. Current production estimates are ~350. Not sure what I'll do with it. Maybe another 45 factory as the need here should be great.

The only other engine factories I have are for the Ha-44. Currently four in R&D. The engine is now in 1/45, and advancing every 25 days. Expected very late '43.

I haven't bothered with the rocket or jet engines.

[Mike Solli]

Until mid-43, I was thinking short term. Now I'm trying to figure out late game needs. Here's the down and dirty:

Ha-32: Needed for Jill, Betty, Emily, Rex and Francis. Jill will taper off when Grace comes on board (~2/44). I'll probably build Betties to the end, but that can change. Emily sucks engines but the need isn't too bad. I have 50 Rex in the pool and am holding at that. I don't use many. Francis, I'm building 30 a month. It probably will not increase. So, the need for the Ha-32 will decrease over time. Most of the airframes will end up as Kamikazes. The factories for the engine are 150, 90 and 60. One of the smaller ones will end up being converted to the Ha-43 in 5/44.

Ha-33: Needed for the Judy (Y3 & Y4), Paul (if I build any), Nell, Tabby/Tina, Dinah recon, Tony (Ki-100-II) and Randy FB. I have 2x210 factories. I'll probably produce most for the remainder of the war. The Nell will become a valuable naval search asset (and Kamikaze) later. The Judy will remain with KB as long as there is a KB, and a valuable Kamikaze. I am not producing a lot of Tonies. I have 2 sentai right now. We'll see how they do against bombers. That day is coming soon.

Ha-34: Needed for the Tojo and Helen bomber and transport. Tojo production is off for good, but they're still doing good work. I don't want 200 in the front line and another 200 in the pool when they become obsolete. The 1x360 engine factory will be shut off and changed to the Ha-45 at the end of November. The remaining engines will be used for the Helen bomber and transport. That's it for them for the rest of the war.

Ha-35: Used for the Zero, Oscar, Toka and Ki-115. The 540 factories are as follows: 1x270 and 3x90. The Zero is off and on as needed. Their losses have dwindled with the increase in Georges for the land based daitai. Oscar is off. I won't produce a lot of them. They are niche aircraft that ultimately will become Kamikazes. I will produce a lot of Toka and Ki-115 in 45. I expect the factories to increase somewhat. Not sure when or how much they'll increase. I'm thinking 500 Toka and 1000-1500 Ki-115 a month late war. Not sure exactly how much though.

Ha-43: I'm still researching this engine. It'll be operational 5/44, the same time as the George 5. I never built the B6N1. I have 1x60 and 3x30 doing R&D on it. When it becomes operational, the 3x30 will convert to the NE Turbojet, which will become operational 2/45 for the Ki-201. That's the earliest either of those engines will become operational. When it becomes operational, the size 60 factory will be increased to about 180 and an Ha-32 factory will convert. Maybe an Ha-35 (and probably a small Ha-45) as well to get numbers up as fast as possible. It'll be used for the George 5 and the Sam. I want to get 500 engines in the pool as soon as possible to support the Sam R&D, but also need to be able to pump out the George quickly. So, that's probably 4 factories building up beginning 5/44 with one of them already starting at 60. So 180 by the end of 5/44, 300 at the end of 6/44. Don't know how high I'll go.

While we're talking about it...

NE Turbojet: In 5/44, 3x30 will convert to this, taking a month to repair. Operational in 2/45. Don't know how much I'll increase it, but I want 500 engines in the pool to support the Ki-201 R&D. I have 6 R&D factories working on the Ki-201: 18(12), 15(15), 15(15), 10(20), 2(22), 3(27). I'd love to get them in mid-45 but am not optimistic.

Ha-45: Needed for the Grace, Myrt NF, Peggy(T) and Frank r. I plan on building lots of all except the Peggy. I'll nee a lot of these. 660 right now + 360 (from the Ha-34) - 60 (1 factory to the Ha-43 = 960 by the end of 1944. I think I'll need more but will reassess later.

Finally...

Ha-60: I goofed and overbuilt them early then switched the factory to something else. I'm building the D4Y2 and the Judy recon until the engines are gone. The D4Y2 will eventually be relegated to Kamikaze duty (along with the remaining Y1) as the D4Y3 replaces them.

[ElvisDaKing]

Hi Mike

Thanks for sharing
As usual, your information are always very interesting and very helpful when planing the japanese industry

Although, i have some questions about some of your choices :

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Ha-32: Needed for Jill, Betty, Emily, Rex and Francis. Jill will taper off when Grace comes on board (~2/44). I'll probably build Betties to the end, but that can change. Emily sucks engines but the need isn't too bad. I have 50 Rex in the pool and am holding at that. I don't use many. Francis, I'm building 30 a month. It probably will not increase. So, the need for the Ha-32 will decrease over time. Most of the airframes will end up as Kamikazes. The factories for the engine are 150, 90 and 60. One of the smaller ones will end up being converted to the Ha-43 in 5/44.

Why keeping on building Betty and Frances ?
I would rather go only for Frances : P2Y2 are fast, armored, durable, equiped with radar, and with almost similar range of late Betty version...
For very longe range attack , and long range ASW, i will keep the G3M3 Nell instead of the Betty

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Ha-33: Needed for the Judy (Y3 & Y4), Paul (if I build any), Nell, Tabby/Tina, Dinah recon, Tony (Ki-100-II) and Randy FB. I have 2x210 factories. I'll probably produce most for the remainder of the war. The Nell will become a valuable naval search asset (and Kamikaze) later. The Judy will remain with KB as long as there is a KB, and a valuable Kamikaze. I am not producing a lot of Tonies. I have 2 sentai right now. We'll see how they do against bombers. That day is coming soon.

I would not go for E16 Paul : it is a dive bomber but very slow, so if you link it with other planes, including escort fighters, when attacking enemy fleets, you are greatly disadvantged if any CAP protecting the ships.. More time for allied fighters to intercept, bad coordination...
With D4Y3/4 Judy, IJN has already a great dive bomber

What about the E13A1b Jake ?: Jake is a wonderful plane to spot enemy fleets, especially subs, so the new version equiped with radar will even be better, and can be used at night to avoid allied CAP if any
Only issue is it comes very late , 11/1944, so don t know if it worth building it...

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Ha-45: Needed for the Grace, Myrt NF, Peggy(T) and Frank r. I plan on building lots of all except the Peggy. I'll nee a lot of these. 660 right now + 360 (from the Ha-34) - 60 (1 factory to the Ha-43 = 960 by the end of 1944. I think I'll need more but will reassess later.

C6N1-S Myrt was also my first choice as late war IJN night fighter because of its high speed
But i changed my mind because it has a very low climb rate, very low fire power, it is not armored and, more important, it has a very low durability...
I don t believe it will stand a chance to hit any bomber before it get shot down...
So I go for P2Y2-S : Durability = 38, Armor = 1, firepower = 12... still agree that climb rate is alos very poor, but we re plqying japanese, so do with what we have





Just to add : Thanks again for your AAR which is very inspiring, and largely responsible for having me converted to th JFB side

[Lokasenna]

You have more than enough ARM and not enough VEH I think, but you're probably OK for now - you have time to adjust the ARM yet anyway, but I could see you running short on VEH pretty easily in 1944 or sometime when large scale ground combat begins and your units are replacing lots of tanks and motorized support...

Didn't you ever get Tracker installed? If you did, you need to look at the LCU Production screen and its charts - it will show you the cumulative (as well as daily) cost of your units that will arrive over time.

Granted I have only played Scenario 2, but 250 VEH has been necessary all the way through into 1945...

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Glad to see you're getting on board with the principle of filling the unbombable pools.

Some caveats regarding airframe production.

Fighter squadrons converted to kamikaze can perform CAP missions. This is important if you want to capitalize on the dedicated training squadrons for defensive CAP in lieu of kami operations. If you want to go down that rate having extra airframes that can do the dual kami/CAP role (read: Oscar,Tojo) is worth it.

I wonder why you're not putting a big investment into building lots of the Peggy T? It's basically the Frances, but for the IJA, and even has the knock on bonus of letting you downgrade the Helen to late-war kami duty.

I'm not completely convinced on the value of building Betties late in to the war either, but I can see the justification for them if you want something with longer legs for search, ASW or night attack work. To be honest, the supply would be better used getting the Peggy T, at which point you can massively boost your anti-shipping capability and use the IJA pilot pools to give your striking force some real depth.

As for floatplanes, don't bother. The Jake is as good as it gets, and investing research to bring the radar model forward isn't worthwhile IMO. If you're going to build any floatplane other than the Jake, there's a good argument for a small production line of the Norm for use on ships and subs (where the SR of 3 isn't a massive issue) and use on land as a ASW/search platform from big bases. 15 hexes of range from a floatplane is nice, and is about what you get from an average 2E level bomber (but for half the price).

Regarding armaments production, Loka has the right of it. IJA expansion goes mad from 1944 into 1945. I loaded up tracker to give you a rough idea, and there's a 100 day period in early/mid 1945 where 20+ IJA infantry divisions arrive. That doesn't include numerous brigades, or IJN units, or tanks or artillery. Then you need to factor in unit replacements, which by 1945 will be going through the roof as the wheels come off the IJ warcart.

With Japanese VEH production, there's a lot of value in stockpiling motorized support squads so they don't get replaced. This does hurt a lot of armoured units that Japan has, but by '45 the days of the 1st Japanese Panzerarmee are long over and your tanks are fighting in the defense where you should be able to rotate in enough support from regular support squads.

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I can see them but just can't seem to hit them.

Yeah, I get that. Have the same problem. Not sure what to do?

I keep hearing about the late war Japanese E and DDs, those little ones. They have a lot of ASW so I'm hoping for the best. I've only started getting them. I am using the long range Etorofu class as escorts, primarily out of Singapore. The shorter range Es (Mikura and Hirashima come to mind) I'm using in ASW TFs. I don't have many of the later ones yet.

The 27 knot DD's (MAtsu, Tachibana) are great ships: they make great CV escorts and let's you free up better ships for surface combat.

The smaller E class ships aren't to be neglected either. You get a lot of them, and while they're on the slow side at 19-20 knots for proper fleet operations, quantity has a quality all of its own.

[rustysi]

I'll probably build Betties to the end, but that can change.

Change recommended. The last Nell is a much better A/C IMHO for late war ASW as it has VLR and will get radar. Then Francis 2 (the first is SR4) will make a better anti-naval platform when possible (carries torps) due to its armor. So for me at least that leaves out the Betty.

Emily sucks engines but the need isn't too bad.

Yup.

I have 50 Rex in the pool and am holding at that. I don't use many.

Naturally.

Tony (Ki-100-II) and Randy FB.

I don't produce either of these. The Tojo is equivalent to the Tony IMO. The Randy, I have the Nick, but may revisit once the Randy is available.

Ha-43: I'm still researching this engine.

We have some confusion here, and I think we both need to take another look vis-a-vis the Ha-44.

IIRC the Ha-43 is only used by the early Jill and the Ki-94-II. Now other late war models may switch to it, I'm not 100% sure.

OTOH the Ha-44 is used by the SAM, and a bunch of others, including some that switch engines along the way.

So, be careful and check these out. I'll do the same again for the next time, and this time I'll take some notes.

Myrt NF,

Its my understanding that Japan doesn't get too many NF groups, especially the IJN, so you may not need as many of these as you think.

Ha-60: I goofed and overbuilt them early then switched the factory to something else.

You built, what 500. At first I thought so too. As my game progressed it looks to me that your estimate of their usefulness was not far off. I had neglected to factor in the use of the Judy recon version. I can see me putting these onboard my carriers as search and anticipate needing 100-125 for the duration, to include spares of course. My final estimate of engine use is now ~350. So I don't think you were that far off.

[rustysi]

C6N1-S Myrt was also my first choice as late war IJN night fighter because of its high speed
But i changed my mind because it has a very low climb rate, very low fire power, it is not armored and, more important, it has a very low durability...
I don t believe it will stand a chance to hit any bomber before it get shot down...
So I go for P2Y2-S : Durability = 38, Armor = 1, firepower = 12... still agree that climb rate is alos very poor, but we re plqying japanese, so do with what we have

Disagree here, the Myrt has the speed to keep up with the Superfort and the radar to find them. With just enough firepower to be effective.

The P2Y2-S doesn't have the speed.

[PaxMondo]

I prefer the Myrt too.
Late war NF's have to be able to catch B29's or they won't work for me.
As already noted, very few IJN NF groups anyway, so not really a big deal.

[Mike Solli]

Wow, lots of info here to digest. And yesterday my son and I went to see the Browns beat the Ravens! I hadn't been to a pro Browns game in 40 years and this was my son's first pro football game. What a blast!

Anyway, back to this reality. [:D]

Betty/Francis: The Betty has SR2 and the P1Y1 (which I currently have) is SR4. I'll focus on the Francis when I get the Y2 model (SR2), in 6/44.

The Nell is becoming increasing needed for naval search, but I still use many for naval attack missions.

I never said I was going to build any Pauls. I'm not researching them so it's just thrown out there in case...

I build the Norm as my FP. You can't beat the 12/15 range for naval search. It's also pretty fast, for a float plane.

I'm going with the Myrt. I have 3 factories researching it: 16(14), 14(16), 9(21). As many have said, you don't need many, but I want those few as soon as I can get them.

Loka, I'm keeping my ARM at 150 for the duration. I'm very critical of upgrading my tank units. Yeah, I know, I'll need a lot for new units coming, but I'm just keeping my fingers crossed.

mm, that's good info on the Matsu and Tachibana class. I never considered them for CV escorts. I'll take a look at them. I'm just starting to get them.

Rusty, I checked. The Sam definitely uses the Ha-43. I'm playing Scenario 1, if that matters.

Just for the record, I'm going with these late war fighters:

A7M - no acceleration yet
J7W1 - no acceleration yet
Ki-84r - available 2/44
Ki-201 - no acceleration yet

[ny59giants]

I'm going to have to agree with Loka on the number of vehicles you are producing. 150 will not be enough as even your existing tank rgt will get crushed by the now high anti-armor values all non-Chinese '43 Allied rifle squads. You will need the Type 3 tanks late in the war. Ask Professor Lowpe about them. [:-]

[Mike Solli]

Ok, ok, I give. Do you agree that 250 vehicle factories is sufficient, Michael?

[mind_messing]

Regarding CV escorts, the best platform is probably the Akitsuki for the 8 DP guns. Sadly, you'll be hard pressed to get enough of them.

The Tachibana and Mutsu are just to slow for surface combat against modern USN DD's, so IMO they're best used freeing up IJN DD's that can actually fight. They've only 3 main battery guns (one less than most IJN DD's), but they've a host of semi-useless 25mm guns, so they're kitted out for AA duty more than most IJN DD's.

On the topic of night fighters, I feel the real question is what DAY fighter should you use in the NF role. There's too few dedicated NF squadrons to provide full coverage, so you're reduced to using regular fighter squadrons flying at night. The Randy A, Jack and George are my normal staples in this role, but don't let this limit you. The Lowpe Patented Pete Persistent Pestering Solution of using low value floatplanes on night CAP is a pretty ingenious way to disrupt night raids using marginal airframes.

With IJA tanks in the late war, they fall off a cliff in effectiveness come 1943, and are irrelevant almost everywhere bar China after that point. The Type 3 tank is a great platform in game, pretty much on par with the T34/85, but by it's mid '44 arrival date the golden era of the IJA tank corps has long past - it's not a war-winner, and IJA tank regiments and even divisions will still get mauled by the Allies (if not on land then from the air). However, Loka and NYGiant's have the right of it, increase production now, while you can afford it. If you end up with a crazy excess (not impossible if you keep the IJA tank divisions away from frontline combat), it's a case of turning VEH production off until you get closer to the massive influx of IJA tank regiments (and brigades!) in '45.

[ny59giants]

I would go up to 220 Vehicles right now. Maybe go up to 250 later. Monitor your vehicle surplus monthly to see what the trend is.

If needed, PM a game turn with PW to me. I'll run Tracker for you and post numbers on vehicles and engines for ya. [;)] There are other things I can send you from screenshots if you are unable to get Tracker up and running.

[Lokasenna]

IIRC the last medium tank that you get is pretty good, too. At least on paper. You'll burn through a lot of VEH points upgrading to it.

[rustysi]

Rusty, I checked. The Sam definitely uses the Ha-43. I'm playing Scenario 1, if that matters.

Yeah, I got the two 'bass ackwards'.[:D]

Its the Ha-43 that is used in all those late war planes that are needed. Sam, Shinden, KI-83, and last George.

That being said though, it then looks to me that you've forgone the Ha-44. Not that its that big a deal as its only needed for the first Jill and the Ki-94-II. You've already stated you're not doing the first Jill, and going for the jet and/or rocket engines, makes sense as well in your case. The 94 shouldn't be needed.

For me at least, I wanted the Jill to pair up with the Judy asap. Hope/should have most/all carriers Jill/Judy equipped by mid-'43. Already have one done at end of Feb. How much difference that'll make...?

[rustysi]

I would go up to 220 Vehicles right now. Maybe go up to 250 later. Monitor your vehicle surplus monthly to see what the trend is.

Sounds like solid advice to me. I think I may have overdone it a bit, but I was going by the advice I've read in the forum. Not that I think its bad advice, I just may have gotten there too soon. I have over 44K in the Veh pool at the moment, but I think my HI is too low for the much need aircraft expansion and build later on. Although it looks like its mostly engine expansion that'll I'll need as many aircraft R&D sites will just go to production in the near future.