The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[Fishbed]

My friend, forget about the xAP and xAK, even if you have trillion of them. Pick APA/LSI, AKA and LST, and get in quick, then get out fast. The sooner you're away, the better it is for your marines, and assault ships will have it done in less than two turns. A Marine division seems fit enough. Give them a strong Seabees unit, a light base force for fighter defense and that should do it. But considering your naval muscle right now, I wouldn't linger to long in the area.

Your guys are prepped for the island at least, aren't they?

[GreyJoy]

i don't have any APA or LSI AKA or LST yet...it's too early to convert them and i haven't recieved none of them yet!
 
Yes they're prepped...almost every one of them...i'm waiting few more turns just to be sure they'll arrive with 100 prep...i have to do something anyway mate...it's now or i'll have to wait till 1943/44...if the combined fleet comes back it's over...have to use this moment...i know it's risky but again, don't have many chances and the Marshalls seem to be the easiest target at the moment

[Fishbed]

Maybe that waiting till 1943 is exactly what is needed.

Well, "if I were you" I would downgrade the operation into a low-risk adventure (even though it is already probably the case if you plan on using your CVEs instead of your fleet carriers) and send what is just needed to keep him honest in the area. Honestly, if he wants to take the place back, he will do it. He can obtain absolute supremacy in the air and on the sea around the place, and a whole Marine division will only get starved to death if he's willing to have them do so. Just check what happened to Andy's ill fated invasion of PzB's central Pacific outpost, and you'll see that he didn't make it out alive, even with much more and better troops, ships and planes that you are able to throw at the enemy's face right now.

So if the place is lightly defended, take the whole div, leave a sizable force to protect it, build it up quickly, but don't get into an attrition battle just like the Japanese did in the Solomons. Back then, the US Navy could barely manage it because the IJN was 4 fleet carriers short. Unfortunately not here, as far as I know...

Thank god we know where the whole kido butai is anyway, that makes it a low-risk and good training indeed. [&o]

[GreyJoy]

Thanks Fishbed...i'll consider deeply what you just said...another tough call i'd say!
 
May 10th...SCOODRA is invaded...he brought in the whole combined fleet for a bombardment run and then he landed 3 divisions plus 5 naval units...will follow tomorrow also because Scoodra ain't no atoll and so no shock attack was needed [:(]...lost 4 precious units...at least i've forced him to committ en masse and so i gained more time for Karachi and Bombay...but boy...that was an overkill!!!
 
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 10, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Socotra at 14,8 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
 
5 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
 
Japanese Ships
      BB Hyuga
      BB Ise
      BB Yamashiro
      BB Fuso
      CA Kako
      CA Kinugasa
      CA Aoba
      CA Kumano
      CA Suzuya
      CA Mikuma
      CA Mogami
      CA Ashigara
      CA Nachi
      CA Haguro
      CA Myoko
      CA Maya
      DD Hatsuharu
      DD Suzukaze
      DD Umikaze
      DD Shigure
      DD Shiratsuyu
      DD Maikaze
 
 
Allied ground losses:
      298 casualties reported
         Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
         Non Combat: 12 destroyed, 31 disabled
         Engineers: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
      Guns lost 24 (11 destroyed, 13 disabled)
      Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
 
 
Airbase hits 25
Airbase supply hits 36
Runway hits 248
Port hits 26
Port fuel hits 20
Port supply hits 5
 
--------------------------------
Pre-Invasion action off Socotra (14,8)
 
101 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
 
Japanese Ships
      CA Furutaka
      CL Naka
      CL Katori
      DD Nenohi
      DD Hagikaze
      DD Makigumo
      TB Kamo
      PB Teshio Maru
      PB Nichinan
      PB Awa Maru
      PB Ayaha Maru
      PB Yamadori Maru
      PB Kiso Maru
      xAP Palau Maru
 
Japanese ground losses:
      6 casualties reported
         Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
         Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
         Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
 
 
Allied ground losses:
      23 casualties reported
         Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
         Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
         Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
 
------------------------------------------
 
Ground combat at Socotra (14,8)
 
Allied Bombardment attack
 
Attacking force 12019 troops, 68 guns, 178 vehicles, Assault Value = 514
 
Defending force 55620 troops, 512 guns, 234 vehicles, Assault Value = 1769
 
 
Allied ground losses:
      8 casualties reported
         Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
         Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
         Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
 
 
Assaulting units:
    75th Indian Brigade
    46th Indian Brigade
    100th Indian Brigade
    99th Indian Brigade
    Socotra RN Det
 
Defending units:
    Sasebo 8th SNLF
    16th Engineer Regiment
    43rd Naval Guard Unit
    41st Naval Guard Unit
    44th Naval Guard Unit
    38th Division
    20th Infantry Regiment
    47th Naval Guard Unit
    Imperial Guards Division
    9th Infantry Regiment
    4th Guards Division
    5th Guards Engineer Regiment
    15th Army
    31st Special Base Force
 
 
He then came with 3 more BBs to bomb Addu...again death and destruction...oh Lord...it's depressing to see this annihilation knowing i cannot do anything about it...[:o]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Thanks Fishbed...i'll consider deeply what you just said...another tough call i'd say!

May 10th...SCOODRA is invaded...he brought in the whole combined fleet for a bombardment run and then he landed 3 divisions plus 5 naval units...will follow tomorrow also because Scoodra ain't no atoll and so no shock attack was needed [:(]...lost 4 precious units...at least i've forced him to committ en masse and so i gained more time for Karachi and Bombay...but boy...that was an overkill!!!

Was it?

I doubt those divisions are going very far south after they rest a bit and re-board transports.

[ADB123]

Defending units:
   Sasebo 8th SNLF
   16th Engineer Regiment
   43rd Naval Guard Unit
   41st Naval Guard Unit
   44th Naval Guard Unit
   38th Division
   20th Infantry Regiment
   47th Naval Guard Unit
   Imperial Guards Division
   9th Infantry Regiment
   4th Guards Division
   5th Guards Engineer Regiment
   15th Army
   31st Special Base Force

I find it fascinating that he is bothering to throw those Naval Guards units into the fight. I guess that he is trying to get a quick overkill while leaving his good divisions to move through India.

If the Naval Guards are out in the Indian Ocean "playing soldier", then maybe your Pacific Adventure might work after all... At least until Radar cleans up India...

Good luck

[GreyJoy]

Bullwinkle, i too doubt those units will go south. Probably they will land back in India within a couple of weeks but however those weeks lost for Scoodra are weeks gained by Karachi under my POV...couldn't do much more. Rader stated when he discovered there were 6 units at Scoodra he changed his plans and overcommitted cause he wanted to be sure that a disaster like Attu (where he lost 3 Naval Guards units) was not going to be repeated.
 
I'm pretty sure the Pacific is almost undefended at the moment. Saw some movements during these last days around the Marshalls...3 TFs spotted...anyway all those units in India (and i mean not only combat units...he brought every single engeneer, AA, and other aux units he could spare) are for sure not guarding his pacific atolls.
 
Scoodra fell on the 12th BTW...[:o] despite 3 forts, despite plenty of supplies my brave indian soldiers could not resist in front of a whole japanese army. Now the backdoor of India is closed once for all with Diego and Scoodra in Japs' hands.
 
Surat has been attacked too. A para unit landed there on the 13th...didn't take the base but 3 more units are spotted 1 hex eastwards...ready to cross the river and shock attack...Bombay is now on his own...
 
...more to follow

[CaptBeefheart]

GreyJoy: Looks like a great time to invade the Gilberts and Marshalls. He seems quite single-minded on India after bringing all those troops to the party on Scoodra. Good luck.

The only thing I can say is watch out for CDs on some of those islands. Milli and Wotje come to mind as being nasty. You might load up a GC scenario as Japan to see what they have.

Cheers,
CC

[GreyJoy]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 12,13 42

So Scoodra falls and the japs have cestabilish another base that closes any access to India, which now relies only on the narrow passage of the Aden Channell which is flooded with subs.
We managed to sink one of them today with an ASW patrol and to damage 2 more with my ASW planes...however it becomes every day more risky to move ships in-out the channell...an AK full of supplies was torpedoed and sunk just out of the channell and despite my efforts more than 20 japs subs are patrolling the 4 hexes that lead from off-map to in-map lanes...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Karachi at 37,6

Japanese Ships
SS I-165, hits 16, and is sunk

Allied Ships
DD Tjerk Hiddes
DD Nestor
DD Napier
DD Decoy




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Karachi at 37,6

Japanese Ships
SS I-164

Allied Ships
DD Napier
DD Tjerk Hiddes
DD Nestor



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Karachi at 38,6

Japanese Ships
SS I-18

Allied Ships
ML No. 201
ML No. 202



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Karachi at 37,7

Japanese Ships
SS I-16, hits 1

Allied Ships
AMc Amritsar




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Karachi at 37,5

Japanese Ships
SS I-19

Allied Ships
ML No. 201
ML No. 202



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Karachi at 37,5

Japanese Ships
SS I-155

Allied Ships
xAP Aquitania



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Karachi at 37,5

Japanese Ships
SS I-123

Allied Ships
xAP West Point

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Karachi at 38,6

Japanese Ships
SS I-18

Allied Ships
xAP West Point


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Karachi at 37,5

Japanese Ships
SS I-19

Allied Ships
ML No. 194
ML No. 200





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Socotra (14,8)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 53819 troops, 523 guns, 159 vehicles, Assault Value = 1820

Defending force 12439 troops, 80 guns, 178 vehicles, Assault Value = 514

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 2

Japanese adjusted assault: 1157

Allied adjusted defense: 279

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 2)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Socotra !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), experience(-)
Attacker: disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
2737 casualties reported
Squads: 30 destroyed, 167 disabled
Non Combat: 31 destroyed, 148 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 9 disabled
Vehicles lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
8350 casualties reported
Squads: 547 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 532 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 112 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 112 (112 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 249 (249 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 5


Assaulting units:
47th Naval Guard Unit
38th Division
20th Infantry Regiment
Sasebo 8th SNLF
43rd Naval Guard Unit
4th Guards Division
Imperial Guards Division
44th Naval Guard Unit
16th Engineer Regiment
41st Naval Guard Unit
9th Infantry Regiment
5th Guards Engineer Regiment
15th Army
31st Special Base Force

Defending units:
75th Indian Brigade
100th Indian Brigade
46th Indian Brigade
99th Indian Brigade
Socotra RN Det


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Surat (39,20) Para drops!
Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 33 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 3

Defending force 1193 troops, 16 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 10

Japanese adjusted assault: 2

Allied adjusted defense: 14

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 7 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(+), leaders(-)


Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Assaulting units:
1st Raiding Rgt /1

Defending units:
2nd West Coast Base Force


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Karachi at 38,6

Japanese Ships
SS I-18

Allied Ships
KV Cyclamen
KV Nigella
KV Auricula




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Karachi at 37,5

Japanese Ships
SS I-155

Allied Ships
xAK Birchbank, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage




Chengtu in China is still holding but it's ready to fall...supplies down to 0 now...just like Manila...[:o]

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

GreyJoy: Looks like a great time to invade the Gilberts and Marshalls. He seems quite single-minded on India after bringing all those troops to the party on Scoodra. Good luck.

The only thing I can say is watch out for CDs on some of those islands. Milli and Wotje come to mind as being nasty. You might load up a GC scenario as Japan to see what they have.

Cheers,
CC

Yes, i've checked...Milli and wotje both have strong naval CD guns...i wanna however land at first at Tarawa, Makin, Abenama, Ocean and Nauru. When and if i'll have estabilish a strong position in this arc of isles i'll consider landing on other islands more northwards (wotje and Milli above all).

Thanks CC...hope it's really like you said... the Marshalls have been absolutely quiet till now but the presence of those 3 TFs around Baker makes me be a little bit scared...

[ADB123]

Thanks CC...hope it's really like you said... the Marshalls have been absolutely quiet till now but the presence of those 3 TFs around Baker makes me be a little bit scared...

What Surface Combat TFs do you have escorting your invasion TFs? Assume that your opponent will send in Cruiser/DD TFs at Full Speed to disrupt your invasion - do you have escort TFs assigned that can stop incoming Surface Combat TFs? Your xAPs and xAKs will unload slowly and will be easy targets.

Also, are you going to assign LR CAP from your CVs to cover your Invasion TFs? There are several level 2 and above bases in the Marshalls that can support LBA. Remember, in addition to Betties and Nells, your opponent can bring dive bombers and torpedo bombers in fairly quickly.

Your worst case scenario will be that your troops land partially and then your transport ships get sunk with all of the supplies.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: ADB123

Thanks CC...hope it's really like you said... the Marshalls have been absolutely quiet till now but the presence of those 3 TFs around Baker makes me be a little bit scared...

What Surface Combat TFs do you have escorting your invasion TFs? Assume that your opponent will send in Cruiser/DD TFs at Full Speed to disrupt your invasion - do you have escort TFs assigned that can stop incoming Surface Combat TFs? Your xAPs and xAKs will unload slowly and will be easy targets.

Also, are you going to assign LR CAP from your CVs to cover your Invasion TFs? There are several level 2 and above bases in the Marshalls that can support LBA. Remember, in addition to Betties and Nells, your opponent can bring dive bombers and torpedo bombers in fairly quickly.

Your worst case scenario will be that your troops land partially and then your transport ships get sunk with all of the supplies.

Yes, i've already learnt that lesson since the first days when his raiders were decimating my transports. i'll use 4 of my BBs as a bombardment platform, while the rest of them, plus CAs and DDs will escort directly the invasion TFs.
I'm pretty sure he has a BB with 2 CAs and a CS in the pacific...but nothing more for what concerns the Combined Fleet...
As i said he didn't build up the bases in MArshalls and Gilberts...most of them don't even have a lvl 1 AF...the real danger is Wotje that is a level 4... I will try to use my bombardment and air combat TF aggressively...in order to "defend forward" attacking the bases where he could possibly base his counter-offensive...while the invasion fleet, with their escorts (pretty heavy escort i hope) will take care of the proper invasion.
I'll keep in the rear a big supporting TF, full of planes, base forces and seabees...in order to be ready to estabilish a defensive perimeter asap so freeing up the CVs from their risky task...

[GreyJoy]

Here's the list of naval units involved:
 
5 U.S. CVs
7 BBs (4 US and 3 UK)
13 CAs
16 CLs
45 DDs
20 APDs
lots of Aux units (ASs, AVs, AVPs,AEs, AKEs, AKVs, AOs, etc etc)

[Canoerebel]

GreyJoy, are you experienced with atoll invasions?  They are one of the trickiest things to get right.  Timing and loading is critical due to the auto-shock attack.  Unless you've done this before or a card-carrying Mensa member, you might want to discuss this in great detail with an experienced player.  Because even good players can sometimes mess up tiny little things that ruin an amphibious invasion despite overwhelming odds in their favor.
 
A couple of pointers:  (1) have plenty of supply ships in amphibious mode and oaded with just supply, make sure they arrive during the morning phase; (2) makes sure the amphibious transports arrive during the morning phase to give two phases for unloading troops during the day (it's best to make sure your transports begin D-Days just a hex or at most two from the beaches to ensure this happens); (3) embed some combat ships and minesweepers in the transport TFs. 

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

GreyJoy, are you experienced with atoll invasions?  They are one of the trickiest things to get right.  Timing and loading is critical due to the auto-shock attack.  Unless you've done this before or a card-carrying Mensa member, you might want to discuss this in great detail with an experienced player.  Because even good players can sometimes mess up tiny little things that ruin an amphibious invasion despite overwhelming odds in their favor.

A couple of pointers:  (1) have plenty of supply ships in amphibious mode and oaded with just supply, make sure they arrive during the morning phase; (2) makes sure the amphibious transports arrive during the morning phase to give two phases for unloading troops during the day (it's best to make sure your transports begin D-Days just a hex or at most two from the beaches to ensure this happens); (3) embed some combat ships and minesweepers in the transport TFs. 

Thanks CR! No, unfortunately i never experienced an atoll invasion...well the truth is i never experienced an invasion at all (just a little one playing the coral sea scenario against AI)... i've read everything i could...unfortunately that damned "search funcion" doesn't work on this forum [:(]

[Fishbed]

What Canoerebel says about the unloading speed is quite true, and is the main reason behind my earlier hesitations. The fact that you can't convert APAs/AKAs and the likes yet is quite limitating if you plan on assaulting an atoll. Remember that wasn't done historically before Tarawa (well, Makin doesn't count I guess ^^). Before that, they just didn't have the needed units (LCI, LST, amtracks...) developed for serious amphibious warfare. The mess of Watchtower (aka the lack of supply unloaded on the beach at Guadalcanal) is an illustration of this lack of means, and that was August 1942 - not May... So, indeed, I am quite worried about your ops, but the fact that you'll be bringing overwhelming surface assets, and that most of his naval air and naval forces are around Soccotra right now make me think that it's gonna work anyway. Work out the CAP, try to find a way to protect yourself from Wotje's threat (if he doesn't have a tough CD unit there, bombardment shuttles with cruisers and decoy surface units nearby could help) and try to scatter the units among quite a number of transports in order to unload them all at once (and lessen the potential loss of one of them...). When you are saying "20 APDs", do you mean "20 APs" or is the whole invasion force gonna fit on 20 destroyer-transports?

Good luck by the way, and best wishes [:)]

[GreyJoy]

However i've seen how Rader has invaded Diego Garcia...he used very big amphib TF...probably in each ship there were very few troops and a lot of supplies...so to have the units ashore completely after the 2nd naval phase.. these TFs were supported by large combat ships in them in order to absorb the CD guns shots and to suppress them at the same time.
Think i'll do the same...have plenty of tranports to spare luckly...

Which is the penality is the preparation is above 50 but below 100?

Thanks in advance

[jeffk3510]

I don't know about a penalty, just the higher the prep the better.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

What Canoerebel says about the unloading speed is quite true, and is the main reason behind my earlier hesitations. The fact that you can't convert APAs/AKAs and the likes yet is quite limitating if you plan on assaulting an atoll. Remember that wasn't done historically before Tarawa (well, Makin doesn't count I guess ^^). Before that, they just didn't have the needed units (LCI, LST, amtracks...) developed for serious amphibious warfare. The mess of Watchtower (aka the lack of supply unloaded on the beach at Guadalcanal) is an illustration of this lack of means, and that was August 1942 - not May... So, indeed, I am quite worried about your ops, but the fact that you'll be bringing overwhelming surface assets, and that most of his naval air and naval forces are around Soccotra right now make me think that it's gonna work anyway. Work out the CAP, try to find a way to protect yourself from Wotje's threat (if he doesn't have a tough CD unit there, bombardment shuttles with cruisers and decoy surface units nearby could help) and try to scatter the units among quite a number of transports in order to unload them all at once (and lessen the potential loss of one of them...). When you are saying "20 APDs", do you mean "20 APs" or is the whole invasion force gonna fit on 20 destroyer-transports?

Good luck by the way, and best wishes [:)]

Hi mate,

yes, i understand your worries and believe me when i say i share them all!!!
However Rader has just shown me that even after the invasion bonus and without some specifically built transports, an invasion can be done. I aspect to take some losses, for sure, but untill the KB is stuck in India (and if Rader wants to keep Karachi truly isolated from the rest of the world he has to keep the KB parked there!) i'm pretty confident it can be done also considering that his best divisions and naval units are all involved in the Indian gamble. If i wait...well he could easily send a couple of divisions and some 500 engeneers that can ruin easily my day.

I meant 20 APDs...i'm keeping my APs safe for 1943 when i will convert them to APAs
The APDs will be used for the first actions at Addak Island (NOPAC) and Baker Island with raiders and marine paras[8D]
The main forces will be loaded on different amphib TFs composed of 135 xAPs and 150 xAKs...should be enough

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

I don't know about a penalty, just the higher the prep the better.

Thanks Jeffk...better than what i thought [;)]

[jeffk3510]

Distruption maybe, not sure off the top of my head. I just like to have high prep going in...