The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[GreyJoy]

Ok now it's time to organize the defence of my conquests...just in case Rader tries something crazy or in case i get unlucky and lose a CV battle...
 
Every single base in the Kuriles and Okkaido will have a "static" defence composed of an Infantry regiment, a CD guns unit (most of them have a Def Marine unit and a CD guns Bn or rgt), a 105 mm arty unit, 6 forts and several seabees units. Every single base will be in range of an Air HQ and in range of an Army HQ (uruppu and Bihoro also have a corp HQ). PTs boats are placed everywhere and most of my bases will have a DD division based in its port.
Fuel and supplies are well distributed and several bases have AKE,AD,AS, AV and AG aux ships.
 
My divisions will be regrouped at Sapporo and Bihoro, where they'll rest and heal their wounds
 

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

GJ,
Your stated strategic bombing plan: Recon everything, stand down for a week and then hit something else; is a recipe for disaster. There's no point bombing a target unless your DL ( on the day of bombing ) is 9 or more. Your plan would have that DL be about 1 and would result in very poor bombing accuracy. Again, through a minor error you'd be losingthe majority of the effectiveness of your bomber force.

Oh...didn't know that! Thanks! i'll act accordingly

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Honestly I don't see what all the fuss is about claiming the change is unfair.

In that case, why did it need to be changed? I mean, if the Allied player can open a separate game and read the Japanese mail, what's the big deal?

Illogical.

Bullwinkle -
Usually I agree with what you post. But on this, I'll kindly disagree.

Simply put, I'd rather have the player finding target information than having 100% knowledge for all of the war. Sure the system makes the player work a little harder, but as SigInt is mostly abstracted, what is wrong with putting it back into human hands? It runs both ways.

As you know, DL is also necessary for improved bombing accuracy, piggy backing FOW onto this is a good thing. Sure, it's imperfect, as Nemo pointed out there should be two systems of DL (one for moving and one for static), but as there isn't this sure beats 100% knowledge instantly recognising factory changes, production runs, R&D etc. RL Allied intelligence was wonderful; but you can't tell me they knew everything in real time and got it all right.

So for me, it is an issue of would you rather have an over powerful Strategic bombing model backed by 100% intelligence, or a system where a player does a little homework (recon / bombing runs / fly overs / proximity) and can still get the info he / she needs. It seems like a good reward for good play - instead of ...

Now maybe I shouldn't have brought the argument with the bombing model combined, but I can take it out and still make a good play of it. Change is not always a good thing, but in this; the rewards of putting it back in our hands are better than abstracted overkill.

Sure, some elements of SigInt are weak for the Allies in the game, but it is a game and I don't usually give my password to my opponent so he can see everything I'm doing. (Although I have with some). But I'm transgressing, labelling this as a "cave in to JFB's" wishes is a little unfair in the context of this is a game, it should be enjoyed by both parties; not withstanding AI players like yourself. And if I was, then I'd have thought a little extra challenge at the end of the day is no great thing [;)]

I guess we'll differ on this, and I'm fine with that. But I'll leave you with a parting thought, the game is evolving and getting better mainly due to MichealM, modders and the great community here. This progression maybe imperfect, and will have its critics, but each step enriches our experience of the game, not the simulator and brings us closer to a more perfect gaming experience. Eventually, who knows, maybe a DL dichotomy will evolve and this issue will be mute. But even if it isn't, you know where my vote is[8D]

Enough of my harping.

Best wishes to all,

[Mistmatz]

I don't have a map open but I am not sure whether B-24s could hit Harbin without using soviet air space or not. If not this might be an item for a house rule in the future. at least as long as the soviets are inactive.

[kfsgo]

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

I don't have a map open but I am not sure whether B-24s could hit Harbin without using soviet air space or not. If not this might be an item for a house rule in the future. at least as long as the soviets are inactive.

Harbin to Sapporo is 750 (RL) miles; diverting around Russia looks to be about 850-900 depending on how close you want to cut it, so it's doable, you'd just get less load there.



The Russians do seem likely to have a substantial B-24 force ready to go by the time the war's over, though, heh.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Usually I agree with what you post. But on this, I'll kindly disagree.

PM sent.

[GreyJoy]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 09, 44

Ok, an important psycho turn.
For the first time night bombers were sent over Tokyo. The sacred air space is violated for the first time in this war.
Results were terrible nonetheless. Sent 46 PB4Ys at night to bomb the Frank factories in Tokyo.
The first night bad weather prevented any operation. The second night all my bombers strayed (what does it mean!?) due to night and arrived scattered in small groups over the enemy capital. Not a single hit and several bombers shot down by a fierce AA fire.
However i like the idea to be able to tend my hand and reach Tokyo so easily[:D]

Today we destroyed another aircraft factory (61 A6M5s) at Hachinoe!
We used a mixed air strategy this time.
80 Corsairs were ordered to LRCAP, 150 fighters were ordered to sweep (P-47s and P-38s mainly) and old corsairs were ordered to escort.
650 bombers were committed. Targets were, a part from the factory, ground troops.
The enemy didn't show up (too busy to provide CAP for his major air production centres) and we had an easy turn destroying the said factory and causing more than 5,000 casualities.

Near Salamua, over the Owen Stanleys, 2 reinforced allied divisions attacked the japanese 4th Division. We achieved a 1-2 but caused a lot of damaged to the enemy big unit.
We will keep on attacking here, with the support of 120 2Es from PM...i wanna break his perimeter around Salamua...

In the meanwhile our 2 convoys bringing 400,000 supplies and 600,000 fuel are ready to be shipped to Nopac, while in 4 days we'll start to load 5 more divisions and several support units that will have the task to take Onnekotan Jiima and Paramushiro, so securing once for all our flank.
While we wait for the divisions to arrive from homeland, every 2 turns 7 BBs are bombing those Islands in order to keep them shut and closed

Enemy CVs have disappeared but i bet they are in the Mariannas or in the Gilberts...


PS: edit. 220 B-24Js were committed for the strat bombing of the zero factory. It prooved an overkill cause the first flight of 120 managed to destroy every single production and the rest of the flights (and the rest of the missions of the second day) were absolutely a waste of supplies

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 93rd/A Division, at 118,55 (Hachinohe) Ground attack - i won't paste every single attack...there were severals...
Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 39 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes


Allied aircraft
Beaufighter VIc x 8
Liberator II x 9
Liberator B.III x 13
Liberator B.VI x 15
Liberator GR.VI x 16
Wellington GR.XIII x 15
B-24D Liberator x 9
B-24D1 Liberator x 28
B-24J Liberator x 24
B-25C Mitchell x 15
B-25D1 Mitchell x 39
B-25G Mitchell x 33
B-25H Mitchell x 9
B-29-1 Superfort x 3
F4U-1 Corsair x 10
F4U-1A Corsair x 37
F6F-3 Hellcat x 43
PBJ-1D Mitchell x 15


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
1290 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 45 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 141 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 118 disabled
Guns lost 23 (2 destroyed, 21 disabled)



Also attacking 41st Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 5th Depot/A Division ...
Also attacking 165th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 60th Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 30th Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 37th Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 62nd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 5th Field AF Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 13th Field AF Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 12th Naval Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 21st Field AF Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 69th Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 93rd/B Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/C Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/A Division ...
Also attacking 72nd/C Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/C Division ...
Also attacking 27th Fld AA Machinecannon Company ...
Also attacking 72nd/C Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/C Division ...
Also attacking 72nd/C Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/A Division ...
Also attacking 41st Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 165th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 37th Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 62nd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 13th Field AF Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 12th Naval Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 21st Field AF Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 69th Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 93rd/C Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/A Division ...
Also attacking 41st Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 93rd/A Division ...
Also attacking 41st Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 5th Depot/A Division ...
Also attacking 165th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 62nd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 12th Naval Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 69th Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 93rd/B Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/C Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/A Division ...
Also attacking 3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 165th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 37th Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 62nd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 13th Field AF Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 12th Naval Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 69th Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 93rd/C Division ...
Also attacking 41st Ind. Engineer Regiment ...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hachinohe , at 118,55 - strategic bombing -

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 125
F4U-1 Corsair x 7
F4U-1A Corsair x 38


No Allied losses



A6M3 Zero factory hits 29



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 98,128 (near Salamaua)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 26004 troops, 374 guns, 542 vehicles, Assault Value = 1034

Defending force 8428 troops, 103 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 415

Allied adjusted assault: 636

Japanese adjusted defense: 1702

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), fatigue(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1444 casualties reported
Squads: 28 destroyed, 93 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 41 (18 destroyed, 23 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
508 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 63 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled


Assaulting units:
3rd Australian Division
Gull Battalion
2/2nd Ind Coy
27th Infantry Division
2/4 MG Battalion
4th Armoured Brigade

Defending units:
4th Division
Yokosuka 1st SNLF
25th Field AA Machinecannon Company





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 31 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-S Irving x 13
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 7



Allied aircraft
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 4


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 4 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Shasukotan at 135,49

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
BB New Jersey
BB Iowa
CA Sussex
CA Shropshire
CA Boston

Japanese ground losses:
569 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 19 destroyed, 28 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 4 (1 destroyed, 3 disabled)



Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 32
Port hits 10
Port supply hits 1

OS2U-3 Kingfisher acting as spotter for BB New Jersey
BB New Jersey firing at Shasukotan
BB Iowa firing at Shasukotan
CA Sussex firing at 7th Ind.Mixed Brigade
CA Shropshire firing at 7th Ind.Mixed Brigade
CA Boston firing at Shasukotan



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 27th Army, at 118,55 (Hachinohe)

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes


Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 9
Liberator B.III x 3
Liberator B.VI x 15
Liberator GR.III x 12
Liberator GR.VI x 16
Wellington GR.XIII x 15
B-24D Liberator x 9
B-24D1 Liberator x 24
B-24J Liberator x 31
B-25C Mitchell x 15
B-25D1 Mitchell x 37
B-25G Mitchell x 32
B-25H Mitchell x 21
B-29-1 Superfort x 12
F4U-1 Corsair x 52
F4U-1A Corsair x 30
PBJ-1D Mitchell x 44


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
2142 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 48 disabled
Non Combat: 9 destroyed, 157 disabled
Engineers: 10 destroyed, 91 disabled
Guns lost 42 (5 destroyed, 37 disabled)
Vehicles lost 20 (3 destroyed, 17 disabled)

[GreyJoy]

.

[Nemo121]

Interesting posts.

1. Your reaction to sundering the enemy front entirely is to settle back into defensive positions in Hokkaido. Isn't that what any strategy tome advises when you have a gap you can exploit cheaply?

2. Still, the vast majority of your 4-engineds are being mis-allocated.



Bullwinkle,
YOu are conflating two separate things. I am simply saying that the new system is an improvement and NOT as bad as people are making out. I'm not saying it is perfect and neither am I saying what preceded it didn't require changing.

To take a statement that the current system isn't as bad as some are making out and to make out that that's saying either of those other two things is to ignore the meaning of English. Hopefully you'll agree you just misread, in haste, what I wrote.

[String]

2. Still, the vast majority of your 4-engineds are being mis-allocated.

Not if he plans to invade Honshu in the near future as well. Then the ground attacks on units in clear terrain are justified. Both draining raders manpower and reducing his will to keep units there.

[GreyJoy]

Nemo, i'm still waiting for the final transfer of my 4Es groups. I'm allocating those 4Es needed to hit the strat targets where i can do it safely. And also i'm still learning how to handle these masses of planes properly...step by step...today missions were a general training exam...the mix of sweep+LRCAP+Escort seems to work and we managed to have several "air supremacy" missions with more than 100 fighters over the target...which is a great improovement for me.
We also destroyed another aircraft factory...60 zeros monthly that won't come bothering me in the future. if you sum these with the 46 Tojos production we destroyed at Harbin it's already a gran total of 100 planes monthly that rader isn't able to produce no more. i know it's not much but it's a beginning.
 
Also i need to rest my troops now...so organizing the defence of Okkaido doesn't sound, in the meanwhile, a waste of energies imho...
 
And invading Honshu it's a possibility i'm taking into consideration...

[Nemo121]

I don't see why your training needed to involve wasting 4-engined planes ( which take ops losses and flak losses even on these training missions ) on ground bombing after everything everyone has said. It just seems like an easy way to lose planes doing something pointless you don't have to do.

Each to their own though.

[Powloon]

Just got to say again your doing a great job! In under 2 months you have conquered 14 bases in the home islands (I'm guessing that in itself is a fairly unique achievement in AE) grabbed the strategic initiative with both hands and made Rader dance to your tune. I'm guessing that no matter how far you've come this situation is obviously unlike any other you've faced in the game so far.

Have you decided how you want to finish this?

The way I see it you have 2 options you either finish him with strategic bombing and an air/sea blockade or you get boots on the ground in Honshu and physically take away his means of production.

For option 1 you are still going to need some of the islands to the south of Japan possibly including Okinawa to enable you to interdict the resources (not to mention men and equipment) coming from the DEI as well as possibly some of the islands in the Sea of Japan for fighter bases to enable the bombing of Southern Japan. This is going to mean exposing your shipping to intensive air attack and possibly KB.

For option 2 you can use your unsinkable aircraft carrier you have obtained in the form of Hokkaido to support an invasion of Honshu without the associated risks to your shipping. For this to work though I think you need to proceed as soon as possible and hit him again with everything you have while he is off balance. He is only going to get stronger here. I would ignore the rest of the Kuriles I can't see how they will gain you anything at this stage. You can keep them suppressed with the 2Es and ships you already have in place.

The only diversion of effort it might be worth entertaining is grabbing wake and marcus islands as they would greatly increase your air search capabilities and give you some early warning of KB raids.

Anyway great read!

[ny59giants]

GJ - Here are the late war fighters you will soon, if you haven't already, be facing in great numbers. Like Nemo stated, your 4e bombers should be assigned strategic bombings missions except in emergency. I recently increased my R&D on some of these air frames (I'm in Feb 43), so I would imagine that some will be coming available sooner than what this screenshot shows for Rader.



Engines - may be targeted if your current 4e bombers cannot reach far enough into Japan.
Ha-45 will be mainly for the George and Frank
Ha-43 will be for Shinden, Ki-83, later George, and later Zero

[Nemo121]

Once Rader begins getting 30mm-armed fighters onto the front line his ability to shoot 4-engineds down will improve massively.

In my Armaggedon game recently -the one that's currently on hiatus - I got my first couple of squadrons of 30mm-armed fighters into action over a single base. B-29s attacked that base. Normally they'd have lost 40 or so bombers if facing 20mm-armed fighters. On that day they lost just over 100 B-29s. The 30mm cannons make a HUGE difference.

But all of that is secondary to the point that it isn't good strategy to waste 4-engineds doing jobs that single and twin-engined bombers could adequately do.

[paullus99]

It will be a process of sending in & building up his supply of 2E & FBs, and once he has those in place, the 4Es should be doing nothing but strategic bombing. There are few distinct operations which can be conducted simultaneously at this point:

1) Use 4Es to bomb the crap out of vital aircraft industries - this has a two-fold effect, destroying the planes before they even get out of the factories (either by having no engines or airframes) & forcing Rader to defend his factories at all cost - which ties down his fighters and forcing him to fight a battle of attrition which he can't win.

2) Conduct additional land campaigns (perhaps Korea or even a lunge at Honshu with the intent to tie down his troops)

3) At leisure, use your carriers offensively to finally corner and destroy the KB - the more you can go on the offensive, the less time Rader will have to plan on attack on you.

I fully agree that it is a question of maintaining the momentum - there is no reason in the world you can't be running multiple operations, including both offensive and defensive, at this point.

[GreyJoy]

Nemo, sorry but i don't understand your concerns now.
I'm relocating all the 4Es i have around the map and this process, as you know, takes time (9/10 days at least considering those planes left behind cause damaged during the transfers).
In the meantime i destroyed completely the a/c production at Harbin (maily Tojos IIc), Sentai (Shindens R&R) and Hachinoe (zero) for little cost.
During the last mission at Hachinoe we had to destroy a 61/monthly zero production and we used all the B-24Js we had for this tasks. The other british 4Es (recently arrived passing through Chungking - where we lost 30 bombers due to damage and consequent impossibility to repair due to the lack of supply)were devoted to support the ground attacks of the 2Es.
Considering the numbers involved i knew the task of closing the industry of those zeros would have been achieved with the B-24s allocated. I could stand down the british liberators, true, but the mission was a safe one (no opposition previewed and very short range) and i figured i could kill some more troops with no loss and give Rader some more concerns about defending a clear terrain base hex.

Sincerly i think i'm sticking (sp?!) to the task and to the target you and others have underlined.

Now i'm massing my long legged fighters and waiting for the last 200 bombers to arrive (in 2 days they will be in Okkaido). In a week we'll have 650 4Es fully rested with best leaders and with decent crews ready to come into action, with 130 P-38s and 300 P-47s ready to support the next strat bombing operation.

The problem, as you see in the attached map, is that a/c industries are now all behind the red line. Behind that line Rader has several 9 lvl AFs, full of fighters and AA. And when i say "full" i mean FULL. Tokyo has 833 fighters spotted and the bases around it have at least 200 fighters each.
And the situation isn't growing if we move westwards. I recently reconned Hiroshima and Nakasaki and they both have more than 400 fighters each. So it's not doable a mission beyond the fighter cover range.

[jeffk3510]

I think all Nemo is saying, if he allocated his 4Es better, he would end the war in a couple of months...which I agree..

[Canoerebel]

Let GJ play the game. 

[Grfin Zeppelin]

Sadly the important AC factories are behind this line. Your time window is closing already and thats the reason Nemo is so concerned methinks. You had a huge gap and should have thrown the 4E kitchen sink. The number of troops killed with that attack is truly impressive but irrelevant. At the time your ground forces meet them they will be replaced.
Anyway, its a very interesting game from both of you and your main focus should be to have fun