AE Land and AI Issues [OUTDATED]

[Andy Mac]

We are working on this Jim we have 2 solutions broadly device rates set in game are replacements with one off disbanding units for upgrades at key points.
 
I have a more elegant solution but I need to wait for coders to tell me if its possible.
 
 

[Reg]

Would it possible to introduce squad 'upgrades' which would be cheaper or more available than replacements as it is a heck of a lot easier to issue new kit to an existing and trained group of soldiers than build a unit up from scratch.....

[size=-1]Edit: This would also allw you to upgrade your entire army whilst still maintaining the same reinforcement levels.[/size]

[Andy Mac]

As I said watch this space I have an idea on how to fix it but it comes down to rpogramming time now as I also have a brute force solution that does actually work.
 
It comes down to elegant and possibly time consuming or brute force and no additional programming - I need to get with the team and do some figuring.

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: spence

According to "Shattered Sword" there were two 7 or 7.1 inch coast defense guns on Midway in June 42.

As Don Bowen notes, there were practically as many configurations as there were Marine Defense Battalions. The uniquely-equipped Marine Defense Battalions are included in AE in all their glory.

The Marines on Wake have 5" guns; On Samoa, 6" guns; Midway has an extra battery of four 7" guns (only 1 at start, the other three were on Oahu on December 7th, awaiting shipment to Midway). Most reinforcing battalions arrive equipped with old WWI-era M1918 155mm guns. All battalions eventually upgrade to modern M1A1 155mm Coast Defense guns, before converting to AA battalions in 1944.

About half of the battalions have a tank platoon -- M2A4 or M3 Stuarts -- or an infantry company (one battalion has two additional infantry companies) or both attached.

All of these historical details are correctly reflected in the OOB. You'll even find the Marines only Marmon-Harrington Armored Cars on patrol in Samoa!

This truly microscopic attention to detail is brought to you by Andy Mac's unmatched* AE OOB team. Our motto: "Giving you what you want, before you know you want it."



* "unmatched" = we've never actually been in a match of any sort

[Andy Mac]

unmatched and undefeated until one of the modders takes a look and spots something we missed...
 
My most recent favourites were RM Viper Force being para capable what was I smoking the day I input that one
 
or a personal favourite of mine 9th Colonial FFR Div (or whatever I called it) having US Squads !!!!
 
Everything needs to be checked and rechecked and yes then checked again....
 
My current topics of concern and things I am tweaking is how many Valentine III Tanks ended up in India and NZ (I have about 370 total 250 ish NZ and 120 India, how many Matildas ended up in Australia (144 ish)
 
How many AAMG's did a late war Indian Division actually deploy it varies a lot depending on sources largely because Arty Regts and support units all seemed to 'aquire' a couple despite the inconvenience of lugging them over northern Burma trails.
 
And then my current personal favourite 17th Indian Div and the case of the mutiple TOE changes (aaaarggggh its enough to drive a sane person nuts !!!!)
 
But its all fun.
 

[Andy Mac]

p.s. wanted to explain a little why I am still tweaking British Squads.
 
Look at my stock game with Pauk in the Burma campaign I have broadly got 4 British Divs (2nd, 18th,36th and 70th (as Chindit Bdes)
 
So far so good.
 
After a years fighting on Mandalaygrad the Divs are all shadows through lack of replacements quite rightly the British dont get enough squads to keep 4 Divs on the line in that kind of combat and actually 18th Div should not be involved !!!!.
 
The pool is always empty.
 
In AE I I dont get any more replacement squads in fact I get less in proportion especially when you consider that Indian Army Divs have British Squads as well (although there are several big injections to upgrade but once upgraded the squads replacements are low)
 
BUT in AE I would have the option to disband a Bde or a Div to provide replacements for the others and as Indian Divs become more Indian in nature as Brit Bns are switched for Indian ones then these excess squads are also available.
 
So the tools in AE allow better management of tight resources BUT British Infantry will always be tight.
 
Like in my game v Pauk if you keep an ahistorical Div in the line and lauch an attiritional battle you WILL run low on key squads as your pools exhaust.
 
This IMO is correct and properly reflects the pressures the allies were under especially the British it is this balancing act we seek to preserve some nations WERE tight on replacements - British, NZ and Australians especially.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
some nations WERE tight on replacements - British, NZ and Australians especially.

As was Japan. It would be interesting to hear what TO&E strength those Japanese units you are facing are at. My guess is they are near 100% if their supply lines are open.

Jim

[Reg]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

My current topics of concern and things I am tweaking is how many Valentine III Tanks ended up in India and NZ (I have about 370 total 250 ish NZ and 120 India, how many Matildas ended up in Australia (144 ish)

But its all fun.

Andy, see my PM.

Matildas delivered to Australia numbered over 400.

Note Australia also inherited some Marmon Herrington light tanks (52 allocated for operational use, the rest for training) after the fall of their original destination in the NEI. in Aug'42 18 were tentatively slated for airstrip defence duties and several actually issued to units in the Cape York Peninsular area (including the Torres Strait Force). They were all withdrawn by mid'43 and disposed of by Dec'43. The Ford Motor company in Geelong Vic used the armour plate from these vehicles in the construction of landing craft.

[Andy Mac]

You can ask him I cannot just dont tell me the answers....
 
Reg you are correct the 144 I had was a number for March 42 more may (and indeed did from your source) arrive afterwards.
 
I was more interested in the number of Grants they recieved and tha fact that Aus Regts never went Sherman interesting source you had there   I will open this up slightly for interest only as Reg started me thinking
 
Aus AIF Regts go through 3 iterations at present
 
A half arsed weak TOE 1941 - March 42 involving not a lot 10 Improvised tanks (of which 5 become a sqn of Vickers or Stuarts and the other 5 Matildas)
 
9 sections of Bren or Vickers on Carriers (each section has 3 Brens or Vickers) so 27 Carriers
 
and
 
8 ACIVP's or Marmon Harrington Ard Cars
 
I think we would all agree thats not a lot and not very good
 
A March 42 Aus Ard Regt - mid 43
 
has 1 Light and 2 Heavy Sqns each 1 has 5 Troops of 3 and an HQ section of 3 (Stuarts and Matildas or Grants)
and a Regt HQ of 4 Matildas
 
So 58 Tanks total
 
A Mid 43 Regt - end of war has RHQ of 4 Matilda Close Supports or Mk II's
Typically 3 Sqns each of 5 Troops each troop has either 3 x M3's or 2 X Matilda II's and 1 x Matilda CS
ands a sqn HQ of any of the 3 types depending on its troops equipment/
 
There is a late 45 config that I have ignored that has some Aus Rgts getting Churchill VII's I took the cop out option and just set the M3 Grant/Lee to upgrade to the Churchill without another TOE change for the sake of 2 tanks.
 
so shoot me !!!!
 
 
 
 
 

[JeffroK]

Andy,
 
if you are still looking for Matilda(& other AFV) arrivals in OZ I can get that tonight?
 
Are you going to diferentiate the Marmon-Herringtons as left-handed & right-handed?
 
If you are considering the Churchills you should add some Shermans as 3 were trialled, plus a Crusader & I think a Cromwell or Comet, plus the only Covenantors to see combat (bridge carriers).  IMHO a waste of effort.

[Andy Mac]

I have (300 in 42) 400 Matilda and Matilda CS's and 700 ish M3 Grant/Lee's almost all in late 42. I allowed a small replacement rate on top of that to reflect reconditioned tanks coming back into the line.
 
I class Marmon H's as an armoured Car and just lump them all together so many MG equipped armoured cars with similar specs in WITP terms exist its bewildering.
 
Broadly the Aus Armour path is
 
Improvised AFV - Matilda II - Matilda II CS - M3 Grant/Lee - Churchill VII (in 9/45) for the tiny numbers of shermans etc it was not worth it. (Unique to Austrlia prior to Churchill.)
 
Lt Armour is Improvised AFV - Stuart I - Stuart VI (shared with other CW nations)
 
Armoured Car
 
Beaverette - Marmon Harrington - AC1VP - Humber I - Humber IV - Daimler (from Humber I shared with other CW prior to that shared only with NZ)
 
Broadly there are totally different tracks for Australia and the rest of the CW largely to keep M3's out of Indian hands in 42 when lets face it 8th Army was grabbing every M3 that left England !!!
 
After M4's start to arrive at 8th Army then and only then do the Indians start to get Grants (UNLESS India north of Delhi gets invaded in which case a few get diverted to Indian Armoured formations early)

[JeffroK]

I PM'd some links, this bit wouldnt attach
 
[font="times new roman"]69 M3 Stuart & 54 M3 Lee/Grant(I think Lee types) had arrived by 30/4/1942[/font]
[font="times new roman"]140 Matilda II’s arrived in July 1942[/font]
[font="times new roman"]By August 1942, 656 M3 Lee/Grant & 244 M3 Stuart were in Australia[/font]
[font="times new roman"]“C” 17 Light Horse MG Rgt – 4 Arm Rgt 1/5/41 – 104 Motor Rgt 9/3/42 – 14 Arm Rgt(6 Arm Bde) 22/6 42[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Lt Tk Coy – 3 Arm Rgt 7/3/41 – 3 Army Tk Bn[/font]
[font="times new roman"]6 LH Rgt – as Mot Bn Support Gp 1 Arm Div – Armd Car Rgt in 2 Arm Div 21/2/43[/font]
[font="times new roman"]15 LH Rgt - as Mot Bn 1 Arm Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]20 LH Rgt - as Mot Bn 2 Arm Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]26 MG Bn – MG Bn for the mechanized Bde of 2 Cav Div.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]21 LH Rgt – Div Cav Rgt for 2 Inf Div[/font]
[font="times new roman"]8 LH Rgt – Div Cav Rgt for 3 Infa Div[/font]
[font="times new roman"]8 Arm Rgt raised 9/41 – to Puckapunyal Camp 12/41[/font]
[font="times new roman"]18 LH MG Rgt – 12 Arm Rgt 5/42[/font]
[font="times new roman"]10 Mot Rgt (ex 13 LH Rgt) – 13 Arm Rgt 8/5/42[/font]
[font="times new roman"]12 LH Rgt – 12 Mot Rgt 3/5/42 – 12 Arm Car Rgt 4/11/42[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Tank Bn – 1 Tank Rgt 1/6/44[/font]
[font="times new roman"]At the end of 1941, 2 Cav Div became 2 Mot Div (6 Arm Bde, 12,13 & 14 Arm Rgts. 3 Mot Bde 4,26 & 101 Mot Rgts & 6 Arm Car Rgt(probably a Motor Bn at this point) Division was disbanded 2/43[/font]
[font="times new roman"]3 Army Tank Bde formed 6/5/42[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 LH Rgt – 1 MG Rgt - formed 1 Australian Army Tank Bn (Matilda II)[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2 Arm Car Rgt – 2 Arm Rgt -[/font]
[font="times new roman"]3 Arm Rgt & 1 Lt Tk Co –[/font]
[font="times new roman"](I think these formed 2 & 3 AATk Bn ????)[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/5 Arm Rgt was the first equipped with M3 Grant on 23/4/42[/font]
[font="times new roman"]As at 9/42[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Arm Div – 1 Arm Bde (2/5, 2/7 & 2/10 Arm Rgt) disbanded 7/1/44.  3 Motor Bde (4,26 & 101 Mot Rgt) disbanded 4/43. 2/11 Arm Car Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2 Arm Div – 6 Arm Bde (12,13 & 14 Arm Rgt, 9 Mot Rgt) 2 Motor Bde (15,17 & 20 Motor Rgt) 6 Arm Car Rgt  Div disbanded 2/43.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]3 Arm Div – 2 Arm Bde (2/4, 2/8 & 2/9 Arm Rgt)  1 Motor Bde (5,11 & 16 Motor Rgt) disbanded 3/7/43  12 Arm Car Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]3 Army Tank Bde – 1,2 & 3 Army Tank Bn  Bde disbanded 26/9/43, 1 Bn in late 44, 2 Bn 3/44[/font]
[font="times new roman"]4 Arm Bde – 1 AT Bn, 2/6 Arm Rgt & 2/9 Arm Rgt (formed in mid 43??)[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/6 Arm Rgt (Stuarts) was detached to New Guinea Force.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/4 Arm Rgt was formed from Arm Bde Recce Sqns plus 1 Sqn from 2/11 Arm car Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]As at 10/43[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Armd Bde Group – 2/1 Arm Recce (Sqn?)2/5, 2/7 & 2/10 Arm Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]4 Armd Bde -  2/6, 2/9 & 2/4 Arm Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]New Guinea Force – 2/8 Arm Rgt & 1 Tk Bn[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Units which went to New Guinea/Papua/Borneo were equipped with either M3 Stuart or Matilda II as it was considered the M3 Lee/Grant too heavy for use in the Jungle (despite Slim using Medium Tanks in India/Burma[/font]

[JeffroK]

The Churchill in Australian Service

The 6 mentioned as trials vehicles were 2 x Mk Iv, 2 x Mk V, 1 x Mk VI & 1 x Mk VII

[font=arial]Early in 1944, as a result of a recommendation made by the Lethbridge Mission, the War Office urgently requested the Australian Army to carry out tropical service trials on Sherman and Churchill tanks. The trials were to comparatively test these tanks (alongside Matilda tanks) in tropical conditions similar to those in which Matilda tanks already seen active service. The War Office specifically requested a detailed scientific report on the effects of tropical conditions on electrical equipment (both in service and storage) detailing all modifications considered necessary. The Department of Tank Development were apparently depending on this feedback in order that the electrical equipment of Churchill tanks could be tropic-proofed in production. It was anticipated that the trials would take 2 to 3 weeks, after which time the tanks were to returned to the 4th Australian Armoured Brigade for further tests in Australia. [/font]
[font=arial]There was a proposal made by Brig. D Macarthur-Onslow, (CO, 4 Aust. Armd. Bde) that Cromwell, Stuart and Grants also be included in the trials. However, this suggestion was rejected on the grounds that: the Stuart had already been used in New Guinea and found unsuitable, the Grant was being replaced by the Sherman anyway and the Cromwell being a cruiser tank was unsuitable for jungle use (also few spares available). [/font]
[font=arial]On the 15th July 1944 six Churchill tanks arrived in Sydney aboard the SS Leaside Park. These tanks were then loaded on to the US Liberty Ship, Norman J. Coleman which then sailed to Brisbane where, on the 5th August, three Churchills were unloaded (T173254/B Mk.V, T172724/B Mk.IV, T173279/C Mk.VI) and replaced with three Shermans (two M4s and a M4A2). The Norman J. Coleman then sailed directly to New Guinea. The three Churchills remaining onboard were (T173033B Mk IV, T173250B Mk V and T173165 Mk VII).[/font]
[font=arial]The trials took take place in Madang area, close to the workshops of the 2/4th Australian Armoured Regiment. The terrain selected was quite extreme including mud up to 3 feet deep, very dense undergrowth and creek crossings 18 feet wide and up to 10 feet deep. Rainfall during the period of the trials amounted to over 12 inches per month. Taking part in the trials were fifty personnel from the 4th Australian Armoured Brigade commanded by Major G.C. Dennis (appointed by 6 Armd. Corps), two British Army instructors who arrived from the U.K. with the tanks and two Matildas (Mk.V) of the 1st Australian Armoured Regiment from Finschhafen area (with full crews) used for comparison. [/font][font=arial]The Australian War Memorial web site has a fascinating series of photographs of the trial - to see them use Madang and Churchill as keywords in their search engine.[/font][font=arial] [/font]
[font=arial]Whilst the Sherman proved superior in terms of reliability, visibility and its ability to navigate side slopes, the Churchills manoeuvrability, especially at low speeds, was judged to be superior. This coupled with its greater armour thickness and ground clearance led to the Churchill being considered to be the more suitable vehicle for jungle operations. [/font]
[font=arial]Following the Madang trials, the tanks were shipped to Australia where some further trials were conducted prior to the Australian Government placing an order for 510 Churchills. By the time the war had ended only 51 Churchills (comprising of the six trials original trial vehicles and 45 production tanks) had been received and at this point the order for the remaining vehicles was cancelled.[/font]
[font=arial]Little is known by the author about the postwar use of the Churchill tank in the Australian Army, although it is known that these vehicles served with the 1st Australian Armoured Regiment until the introduction of the Centurion. Legend has it that a Churchill ARV nicknamed "Radish" soldiered on for many years rescuing broken-down and bogged Centurions on the hills and ranges of the Puckapunyal School of Armour[/font]
[font=arial][/font] 

FROM http://www.mheaust.com.au/Aust/Austindex.htm

[herwin]

Radish must have been busy...

[JeffroK]

Puckapunyal is the coldest, wettest, dryest, hottest & dustyest place in Victoria.
 
having been an Army camp since 1914 the dirt is like talcum powder and gets into everything

[Reg]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Andy,

Are you going to diferentiate the Marmon-Herringtons as left-handed & right-handed?

[:D]

If you are considering the Churchills you should add some Shermans as 3 were trialled, plus a Crusader & I think a Cromwell or Comet, plus the only Covenantors to see combat (bridge carriers). IMHO a waste of effort.

Forget the Shermans. They were tested and rejected in favour of something else that Andy has included. WITP is too big to worry about individual trial vehicles.

Crusader was pattern vehicle for AC1 Sentinal project and the armour school ended up with it. Curiosity item only.

Covenantor bridge layers are valid items. However with only one per regiment, they border on the lower limit of significance (only treated as a single engineering vehicle??)

Churchills are valid as with 500 on order, they would have been a significant player had the war gone on much longer.

[Reg]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I have (300 in 42) 400 Matilda and Matilda CS's and 700 ish M3 Grant/Lee's almost all in late 42. I allowed a small replacement rate on top of that to reflect reconditioned tanks coming back into the line.

Sounds good [:)]

I class Marmon H's as an armoured Car and just lump them all together so many MG equipped armoured cars with similar specs in WITP terms exist its bewildering.

Also good [:)]
They're gone in 18 months anyway.

Broadly the Aus Armour path is

Improvised AFV - Matilda II - Matilda II CS - M3 Grant/Lee - Churchill VII (in 9/45) for the tiny numbers of shermans etc it was not worth it. (Unique to Australia prior to Churchill.)

Andy, not so keen on this one. See my PM.
Basically, the M3 Lee/Grants obtained for North Africa (never happened) and then for Home defence is superseded by Matilda (then Churchill) for the jungle counter offensives. The Tank Battalions can jump in at the Matilda point on the path. Before the the Lend Lease vehicles arrived, the regiments had to make do with whatever they could, usually only about half a dozen make shift vehicles until some Bren carriers (and then Marmon H's) become available for training.

Is there any point making the gun Matilda and the CS Matilda separate devices?? Standard organisation has every third one as a CS tank anyway? Either way, they were used concurrently and a gun tank doesn't upgrade to the CS version.

Lt Armour is Improvised AFV - Stuart I - Stuart VI (shared with other CW nations)

Once again the Stuarts procured for North Africa/Home defence units were supersceded by Matildas (then Churchill??) in 2/9th, 2/5th and 2/4th regiments for the jungle offensives. Home defence units can just stop upgrades. Before the Stuarts arrived, see above.

Armoured Car

Beaverette - Marmon Harrington - AC1VP - Humber I - Humber IV - Daimler (from Humber I shared with other CW prior to that shared only with NZ)

There were large numbers (500) of M3A1 White armoured cars obtained for the three Armoured divisions from 1942. There were a number of home grown LP (Local Pattern) Scout and Armoured Cars built from 1942 as well (not large numbers - about 250 of each). 275 Staghounds also made an appearance from 1944.

Broadly there are totally different tracks for Australia and the rest of the CW largely to keep M3's out of Indian hands in 42 when lets face it 8th Army was grabbing every M3 that left England !!!

After M4's start to arrive at 8th Army then and only then do the Indians start to get Grants (UNLESS India north of Delhi gets invaded in which case a few get diverted to Indian Armoured formations early)

[:)]

[Reg]

Surprisingly, Wikipedia doesn't do a bad summary. You might like to check out this link: Wikipedia: Australian armoured units of World War II

[Andy Mac]

Reg,

This to repost where I ended up on Australian Armour units

In addition 6 x AIF armoured and I think 1 x AIF A/C regts exist plus if my memory is correct Div Recce regts in the AIF Divs (although these are removed on 1st upgrade)

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

p.s. 2nd Aus Cav Bde that becomes 3rd Army Tank Bde disbands in 43 - allies get 1st Army Tank Bn as an independent unit at that point

In Mid 42 the allies have

1st Motor Bde (Lt Inf and A/C Bde)
3rd Motor Bde (Lt Inf and A/C Bde)
3rd Army Tank Bde (Armoured Bde) - disbands mid 43
4th Armoured Bde (Armoured Bde)
6th Aus Cav Bde (Lt Inf and A/C Bde) - disbands mid 43

Over course of late 42 early 43 the 6 independent LH Bn sized forces disband (de facto some of these moved into the Bdes above and other regts were merged or disbanded)

Andy

[Andy Mac]

The improvised AFV's (Bren Gun Carriers acting at quasi tanks or trucks with MG's) cover a wide variety of 'improvised AFV's
 
I lumped them all together as one vehicle because they were really training only vehicles
 
Now onto the more tricky variants
 
Should the M3 be an upgrade for the Matilda or vice versa honest answer is not sure as a mix of both was used I Prefer to have the more advanced tank used later and give the player the option whether to upgrade or not.
 
Without an never ending supply of tanks folks are going to have to be more carefull.
 
I can make Matilda CS a seperate device that only upgrades to Churchill VII in that way some regiments will always have Matildas no matter what but I think its easier to leave it as is for now but I will look at it now.
 
I had ignored the Marmon Harrington Tank as it is all lumped with improvied AFV to coever a lot of sins but I may not get away with that one I will think again.
 
Re Stuarts there is a TOE upgrade that replaces the light sqn with a 3rd heavy sqn in 43 so they will defacto become Matilda or Grant sqns then.
 
JeffK/Reg thank you for the Staghound info I am looking at changing the Armoured Car upgrade path to make Australian Armoured Cars path totally unique to them.
 
Probably going to go with
 
Marmon Harrington Armoured Car - [font=arial]ACV-IP -[/font] Rover Armoured Car (first 3 all rifle caliblre MG's) - White Armoured Car (.50 Cal MG) - Staghound (37mm Cannon)