Best Designed Ship of WWII

[DuckofTindalos]

Jelous...[:'(]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11


True... but if we leave the higher command asides for now it always puzzled me that, for example, Yamato in the "Battle of the Leyte Gulf" did so poorly... the Yamato was big, stable gun platform and with tall superstructure with best possible elevation for rangefinders and fire control (and Japanese had good optics)... so... what went so terribly wrong in those hours where, by any objective analysis, the battle should have been simple "shooting the fish in the barrel" - the Yamato was, after all, made for such thing and had years to train for the event...


Leo "Apollo11"

I've always wondered that too. I know that some (maybe a bunch?) of big caliber rounds went clean through DD's and CVE's without exploding and maybe they would have been killers. Still, 4 battleships, a bunch of very fearsome cruisers...

Especially since at the battle of Savo Island a group of cruisers practically executed allied cruisers. Every account I have ever read of Samar I have always had the feeling that the IJN cruisers and BB's should have hit better.

[Tiornu]

All he got was that tattoo of Dr. Phil on the back of his head!

Ooh, dag! Can I get one of them? It'll match the one I have on my....well, it'll match. That's all I'm saying.

Yamato in the "Battle of the Leyte Gulf" did so poorly

I caution against relying on the Samar example. First, we can't say how much the performance reflects the design, how much reflects crew performance, and how much reflects luck and the particulars of that setting. We do know that the crew sufferd from a lack of gunnery practice. What we don't know is how well Yamato actually did. Rob Lundgren is working on an analysis of the battle using Japanese sources including the action reports, and his initial impression is that Yamato actually did better than she's generally credited with. You may know Rob from his essay in the latest Warship International in which he analyzes the hits on SoDak, shows that SoDak actually scored a couple hits in the battle, etc.
On the matter of the "General Attack" order, I no longer have anything negative to say about it. Upon further review, it may well have been the right move. Was there anything else that would have forced the Americans to turn away from the wind as quickly?

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Jelous...[:'(]

Actually i think Tiornu should get a gold watch for finally learning how to use the 'quote' feature. [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(]

[Nikademus]

when and where will the article come out?

[Tiornu]

Actually i think Tiornu should get a gold watch for finally learning how to use the 'quote' feature.

The friendly nurse showed me how to use it when she brought me my happy calm pills.
 

when and where will the article come out?

It is out now in the latest issue (Vol 45, No 4) which arrived a week or two ago. By the way, if anyone wants a mound of WIs dating back to 1974 (an almost complete run from that date), I picked up a load of spares and I'm selling them.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

Would you comment on penetration likelihood 46cm on Iowa versus 16in on Yamato?

I will say only that Iowa has no Immune Zone to 46cm fire. Yamato does have an IZ whose outer edge can be brought in as close as 30,000 yards if Iowa uses the reduced velocity that her guns were capable of (that is, firing as though they were 45cal guns). I don't know how to gauge the likelihood of Iowa's crew attempting this, but I can say it was not entirely fanciful. You can use the penetration tables at http://www.geocities.com/kop_mic/ , but these do not account for angled armor. You may want to go ahead and do your only calcuations using Nathan Okun's formulae.

Thanks! I was really looking for your general opinion. BTW, I never considered that an Iowa crew might 'shoot slower' in such an engagement. I know they would for bombardments and what-not. What possible advantage would it confer vs a Yamato (thinking of motivation for the crew to do it)? [EDIT: Poor wording to say 'shoot slower' - I meant at lower velocity.]

[DuckofTindalos]

Whilst on the subject of Samar, I've seen theories that a contributing factor to the IJN's poor performance was fatigue. Kuritas force had been under constant air and submarine attack for many, many hours before sighting Taffy 3, and the crews must have been tired. Thoughts?

[Nikademus]

i believe it was a major factor. Fair is fair too when you think about it. High fatigue is often used to help explain away the poor Allied preformance at Savo.

With respect to what Tiornu wrote, i still believe that the General Chase order was a mistake and led to a disorderly mob like pursuit which left the major hitters too vulnerable to interference and damage from Taffy's escort.

[witpqs]

At least some and perhaps a lot of fatigue makes sense when considering that after the incessant air attacks they passed through restricted waters at night, with every expectation of being met at outlet by half a dozen US battleships.

I assume they were at battle stations most or all of the time.

[Tiornu]

Ooh, I'm just one post away from my new Dr Phil tattoo!
 

 i still believe that the General Chase order was a mistake and led to a disorderly mob like pursuit which left the major hitters too vulnerable to interference and damage from Taffy's escort.

Disorder vs interfering immediately with enemy flight operations. Which are you more afraid of, six DDs and DEs or multiple dozens of aircraft? And which actually caused more damage? If we look at it from Kurita's standpoint, initially thinking he was up against a fast CV-BB group, his enemy's response would have to be hastier in proportion to the haste of the attack. A matter of preference?
 

What possible advantage would it confer vs a Yamato

If you look at the penetration tabels at that web site, you'll see that the American 16in/45 (as in SoDak) actually has greater deck penetration than the 16in/50 out to the maximum range of the shorter gun. Fired at lower velocity, the shell has to arch up higher and then plunge down more steeply. The tables show the descent angle and striking velocity.

[Tiornu]

Dr Phil, here I come!

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

What possible advantage would it confer vs a Yamato

If you look at the penetration tabels at that web site, you'll see that the American 16in/45 (as in SoDak) actually has greater deck penetration than the 16in/50 out to the maximum range of the shorter gun. Fired at lower velocity, the shell has to arch up higher and then plunge down more steeply. The tables show the descent angle and striking velocity.

Doh! I was presuming that due to the long range the angle would be sufficiently plunging anyway. Thanks.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

Disorder vs interfering immediately with enemy flight operations. Which are you more afraid of, six DDs and DEs or multiple dozens of aircraft? And which actually caused more damage? If we look at it from Kurita's standpoint, initially thinking he was up against a fast CV-BB group, his enemy's response would have to be hastier in proportion to the haste of the attack. A matter of preference?

Point. Kurita did think he was facing a fast CV-BB force. But unless the planes were ready immediately, they couldn't have gotten off a powerful counter air attack that quickly. If the wind direction was not running away from his force, the carriers would be forced to turn towards him to launch quickly giving him his window of opportunity.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

Disorder vs interfering immediately with enemy flight operations. Which are you more afraid of, six DDs and DEs or multiple dozens of aircraft? And which actually caused more damage? If we look at it from Kurita's standpoint, initially thinking he was up against a fast CV-BB group, his enemy's response would have to be hastier in proportion to the haste of the attack. A matter of preference?

Point. Kurita did think he was facing a fast CV-BB force. But unless the planes were ready immediately, they couldn't have gotten off a powerful counter air attack that quickly. If the wind direction was not running away from his force, the carriers would be forced to turn towards him to launch quickly giving him his window of opportunity.

But why would they bother? Send the BB's and cruisers while the carriers flee, launching only when safe enough to do so.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

But why would they bother? Send the BB's and cruisers while the carriers flee, launching only when safe enough to do so.

A scenario that does make me dislike the GC order even more so. Admitedly though that might be hindsight influencing my thought process.

[witpqs]

One thing I like about doing what-if stuff with this crowd is that people are very careful about recognizing hindsight and being respectful of the problems the commanders faced.

[Tiornu]

The carriers can flee, yes, but you want them to flee in a certain direction, which only fast action can cause.

[DuckofTindalos]

I still think that Samar went the way it did largely because of the General Chase order. Command and control is SO important, and when Kurita abandoned this, he left his force wide open to disruption by action from the logically vastly inferior Taffy 3.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

The carriers can flee, yes, but you want them to flee in a certain direction, which only fast action can cause.

Which in the case of the what-if Kurita had encountered the fast CV/BB force, only means "away from Kurita" with the BB's and other escorts in between. The fast CV's were at least as fast as Kruita's force. With the fast BB's and other escorts engaging for a death match I feel sure the fast CV's would have gotten away.

You say "which only fast action can cause". I take that to be a comment on the reaction time of the US forces to sighting reports. Taffy 3 reacted slowly because of a combination of disbelief and mistaken assumption that they reporting aircraft must have sited US ships. However, in the case of the fast CV/BB fleet, they were the other US ships that Kurita's force might have been mistaken for. Do you still think they would have reacted slowly enough to get caught?

BTW, nice tattoo.