Illinois Yankee in the Showa Emperor's Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

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John 3rd
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by John 3rd »

ORIGINAL: janh
ORIGINAL: John 3rd
I would love to see some sort of game consequence for Sir Robin. Should be a way to GAIN VP by holding onto 'hot' sites for longer periods or something like that. ANYTHING that would encourage the Allies stand and fight as they did during the war.


I wonder whether something like a "major loss of PP for the loss of certain cities before a given date" could be implemented as an option (at game start). Maybe even at the risk that PP sum up to negative values?

Sounds like a decent idea.
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vicberg
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by vicberg »

Though I don't like auto-victory, that's what is supposed to prevent sir robin.  The allies IRL were compelled to fight early and often and at inferior odds without future knowledge of what was coming and when.  That aspect of the war is completely missed in this game because allies know what they are going to get and when and how much ground they can give up without risking auto-victory.  Auto-victory is supposed to force the allies to fight, but it doesn't go nearly far enough, imo.  No other way to stop sir robin.  If the political costs of complete retreat were much higher, allies wouldn't retreat.
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by vicberg »

If i were going to go a step further, I believe that political costs for losing bases should be variable...sure, allies can retreat, but after SRA and Solomons are obtained, it should be quite risky to simply run away.  Now, of course, the japs have far superior abilitites in this game than in IRL so that should be taken into effect, but a variable number assigned to each spot, would make it a very different game and overall a much more fun game, early, mid and late.
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Q-Ball
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by Q-Ball »

Thought we play for the "experience", VPs do loom there, and I have argued for awhile that the VPs in this game are skewed. Auto Victory is the only hope for Japan; after that, no hope for victory. I don't mean victory in the sense of signing a peace treaty on the deck of YAMATO in San Francisco bay, but rather some sort of "Better than expected" outcome, like Japan being only 1/2 BBQ'ed in late 1945, instead of full-on charred.

Gameplay favors Japan, and VP's favor the Allies. That's the situation.

I realize I still have a game even losing piles of ground troops, but it's just been kinda boring getting here. And I don't blame Dan, that's what you have to do in Scen #2, which I will never play again BTW, on the condition that Allied player feel compelled to bring out the fleet at some point.

Anyway, back to the grind.....
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SuluSea
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by SuluSea »

ORIGINAL: obvert


However, the strategy I've found most useful once an opponent turtles the navy is to wipe the board of transports. Couldn't the IJN move farther south and hit supply routes all over the pacific? With CVs? Using the scout cruisers and subs to find things. Better than port at least, right? And I find sending land and air down with the ship fun and satisfying.

I'm curious if there would be a drawback to this strategy, even from this point? At least you go out swinging. Make the tanker problem more severe.

Against a seasoned opponent this should never happen. The allied player has enough picket ships to put in vital areas to the edges of maps and along his shipping lanes in the SE Pacific /SF to Pearl. In my last game my opponent tried to crack the shipping lanes 3 times and one ended in nothing sunk and two ended with some AMc's and a few low value Aks that were refueling the line shot up. My transports some being huge troop ferrys or tankers just scattered.

I actually found comfort every time the KB would run over trip wires because I knew where the opponents carriers were and went into overdrive elsehwere.


I'd caution about allied CVs just because they aren't striking the KB doesn't mean they aren't working or somewhere stalking, by October of '42 the allied player should be more than willing to engage if it's on allied terms.

My opinion could change on this but I believe the onus is on the Japanese side to do something to force the allied player to use his carriers earlier than he feels comfortable doing. I wouldn't think a land invasion of India accomplishes that.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Thought we play for the "experience", VPs do loom there, and I have argued for awhile that the VPs in this game are skewed.

I have to agree here.

It's been entertaining to read Q and have always found your tips on the Imperial side useful. Hopefully the fire will come back. Take care my friend.
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by vicberg »

In face of sir robin, I believe the best strategy is to get the basic perimeter and then build/defend.  Expanding into sopac, india, OZ is fun, but counter-productive with the VPs...save supplies, fuels, build airfields and forts and stack AF units.  Extremely boring, but I've seen to many games of japanese over-expansion that creates more problems than it solves because there's simply too many allied avenues of counter-attack to cut off the expansion areas...defend a smaller area with good reaction forces...dull. 
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: vicberg

In face of sir robin, I believe the best strategy is to get the basic perimeter and then build/defend.  Expanding into sopac, india, OZ is fun, but counter-productive with the VPs...save supplies, fuels, build airfields and forts and stack AF units.  Extremely boring, but I've seen to many games of japanese over-expansion that creates more problems than it solves because there's simply too many allied avenues of counter-attack to cut off the expansion areas...defend a smaller area with good reaction forces...dull. 

Read several of my earlier posts to see why your proposal is an inferior means to garner the necessary VPs for auto victory.

Alfred
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by vicberg »

Against a good opponent, I don't believe auto-victory is acheivable, as the game is currently structured.
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crsutton
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by crsutton »

Yep, no argument that VP are skewed. But I doubt that many playtesters got that deep into the game to balance VP. Plenty of ways to work it out. I think that major Allied ship losses in 44 should count double and then triple in 45. The American public would have had a more difficult time with massive losses as the end of the war grew near. And sunk Japanese ships in 45 and 45 should count for much less. By 1945 they are just targets anyways and should not be a source of VP for the Allies. Lots of other easy ways to tweak VP. Also, if September 1945 comes along and the Allies dont have 10,000 AV on the Japanese mainland the best that they can do is a draw.... Lots of things.

Or, you could bid VP for the Allied side at the start of the campaign with the higest bidder getting the Allies but the bid counts against his VP total at the end.

Anyhow, I always tell my Japanese opponents not to worry about VP. Come 1945 I will count my sunk carriers and know if I lost the game or not.....
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by Xxzard »

Holding the basic perimeter will not result in an auto victory, I think we know that. Perhaps what vicberg meant to say is that a strong defense is better in the strategic long run, aside from the auto victory parameters.
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Alfred
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Against a good opponent, I don't believe auto-victory is acheivable, as the game is currently structured.

Ah...but is someone who conducts a Sir Robin in extremis a good player?[:)] That is the question.

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obvert
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by obvert »

Interesting arguments on victory points. But is there satisfaction in them really? Is winning in Jan 43 really anyone's goal? I assume most play this for the excitement of a naval encounter, the great satisfaction of seeing a campaign become a success, the pride of watching your well trained pilots fight the odds and knock down a good number of B-24s and force a reaction.

I'm just beginning. I don't look at victory points except to learn how important someone else thinks each place or ship is. I don't care about 'winning.'

Once the game is 'lost,' couldn't it be a time to experiment and create fun problems for your opponent to solve? Do something radical to make the game interesting for both players? And who knows, if a few carriers go down unexpectedly, (once they actually appear), everything changes again.

I'm sure CR has some weak points out there. He'll still have to attack at some point. He doesn't yet have overwhelming forces. It seems like time to make him make choices.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
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Panther Bait
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by Panther Bait »

I think part of the problem with the naval side of the Sir Robin is th tendency for a lot of players on both sides to only ever operate carriers in huge stacks. There seems to be two carrier tactics that a lot of players use, huge stack whack-a-mole and fleet-in-being/hide-in-port-somewhere. This has a tendency to lead to a lot of stagnation as leads those players to only a) attack where their whack-a-mole stack is or b) scamper around the edges when your opponents is whacking moles on the other side of the map.

If nothing else, the Australia attack scenario at least requires both side to use shipping to support the campaign. For India, once the troops are on the mainland, the need for shipping is pretty minimal for both sides.
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by paullus99 »

I will say this, from a historical perspective - when either side split their carriers into non-supporting groups, they took unnecessary losses. For the Japanese, either send all your carriers, or none of them - there are only two types of objectives, those that are worth it and should be given maximum attention or those that aren't and you shouldn't risk your carriers.

The Japanese learned their lessons (or not, as the case may be) at the Coral Sea & Midway.
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by JohnDillworth »

I will say this, from a historical perspective - when either side split their carriers into non-supporting groups, they took unnecessary losses. For the Japanese, either send all your carriers, or none of them - there are only two types of objectives, those that are worth it and should be given maximum attention or those that aren't and you shouldn't risk your carriers.

The Japanese learned their lessons (or not, as the case may be) at the Coral Sea & Midway.

right, but that lesson comes "pre-learned" in the game. No player splits their carriers. So the Japanese run wild for all of 42 and the Allies "sir-Robin" There is no other sensible course for either player. Now a house rule might fix that, but I don't know how to structure that. Something like the Allies will never have more than 2 carriers in a TF through 42 and the Japanese will never have more than 4 carriers in a TF. But there is ways around that to.
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Against a good opponent, I don't believe auto-victory is acheivable, as the game is currently structured.

Hitchhiking on Alfred's point, I disagree too. AV is possible against a Sir Robining player, good or not, IF AV is truly sought. By that I mean hammer-and-tongs, single-minded focus on both military and economic factors, with a certain higher element of adopted risk (Karachi?) In this game Q-Ball had AV in sight, but he demurred. CR did not win in India. He was allowed to not lose. Reading both AARs it is pretty clear that this is understood on the other side.

Discussions of AV, and points made by those who feel as crsutton does, miss the essential point. No, there would have been no AV in RL. The point is winning the game, not the war. AV is needed for the former as a lash on the Allies. The core game design gives the Japanese player the steering wheel. If he effectively goes for AV the Allied player MUST respond or lose the game. He is a passenger until 1943. But that presupposes the Japanese player drives straight to his destination with no stops for scenic overlooks. I believe that Q-Ball, knowing what he knows now about Socotra, the Line of Death, and the timeline which was in play re Allied reinforcements into Karachi, would play this differently a second time. I fully expect other Japanese players to take the lessons of this game in hand and apply them successfully if the Allied player makes the decisions CR did.

Finally, on carriers. It's well known I'm a sub guy, but beside that I think this growing worship of carriers is counter-productive to good strategy. The point about "carrier stacks" is well made. For a time the USN had one fleet carrier surviving in the theater, yet operations did not cease. An AV campaign against India (Oz may be different) does not require the KB, nor should the Japanese player serve it up for mathematical, 4:1 ratio reasons. Conversely, and arguing against CR's tactics, the Allied player should ACTIVELY SEEK a carrier battle by no later than the summer of 1942 if he suspects AV is the Japanese goal. He should seek it under the most favorable conditions he can muster, with supporting LBA, subs, and surface assistance if possible, but he should seek it. Anything better than a 1:4 loss ratio (4 Allied carriers lost for one IJN) is a net gain on AV points, in very large, multi-division LCU loss VP terms.

By August 1942 in this game, with the total Allied carrier force extant, TBs upgraded, and Bombay and Karachi LBA still in his pocket, CR could have reasonably sunk two of the KB's carriers, and put AV off the table. Carriers exist to fight, not to hide. The fleet in being concept is fine, sometimes, but in this GAME , with the AV mechanics as they are, it is a dumb Allied move. CR should have come after Q-Ball's navy and merchants with everything in the drawer, from Ceylon onward, tearing and scratching and sinking what he could. Every ship he could do that to was worth four-fold VPs.
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JohnDillworth
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by JohnDillworth »

CR can't fight because Brad will never split the KB. Same as most other games. "BattleStar Pacifica"
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

CR can't fight because Brad will never split the KB. Same as most other games. "BattleStar Pacifica"

You're still not getting the point. Not splitting the KB is a good thing, as it offers more targets for the Allies more quickly. The math is all in their favor. This KB mythology has to end. It is not invincible (Midway?), and it's certainly not invincible on 1:4 VP terms.
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by pat.casey »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

CR can't fight because Brad will never split the KB. Same as most other games. "BattleStar Pacifica"

You're still not getting the point. Not splitting the KB is a good thing, as it offers more targets for the Allies more quickly. The math is all in their favor. This KB mythology has to end. It is not invincible (Midway?), and it's certainly not invincible on 1:4 VP terms.

I believe the IJN had four large carriers at midway out of a total "maximum" battle force of, what, 7 large and 3 small carriers at that point in the war?

So Midway is really an example of why you should *not* split the KB. If the IJN had sent every carrier they had afloat to midway, they'd have won. Better CAP would have cut down allied strikes and limited IJN losses and the larger number of IJN carriers would have butchered the US on counterstrikes.
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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

Post by Q-Ball »

I don't know if Karachi was takeable. I seriously doubt a landing right on it was feasible. An overland march? Possibly, but that last mile or two is very tough, and it would have required an additional 1000 AV or so for garrisons along the way. Bombay would have stayed in my rear (not takeable). If I got to Karachi, Dan would have had 1500 AV at least. How many AV would I need to displace that in a heavy urban hex? 10,000? Not possible.

The most likely scenario is that I would have had Karachi and Bombay under siege. To maintain that, I would have need the KB based at one of those ports between Bombay and Karachi.

The counter to this would be a landing on the Southeast Tip of India. Dan could easily have pullled that off with preparation. That would have flushed out his CVs by about now. That's how it would have played out. A big battle would have erupted because I couldn't allow that landing. Once ashore, I would have had to withdraw from Karachi and Bombay in a hurry.
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