Off to see the lizard.....

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Chickenboy
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

rtrapasso , GREAT to see you! Andre..I greatly admire Halsey , and Nelson , and I'm still NOT risking my carriers. Period. Risk your own! These are mine! And you can't have them!

Besides , I adhere to a far more ancient and greater military sage....HAIL SIR ROBBIN!!!!![:D]

Just some good 'ole armchair quarterbacking, Steve-o. Nothing more. [:)]

After all, we've got to read and comment on SOMETHING in the total absence of operational, combat or situational reports on this AAR...
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Lecivius
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by Lecivius »

This is the time of the PT!!



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rtrapasso
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by rtrapasso »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
It was only by the narrowest of margins that the entire invasion fleet didn't get mauled because of his (Halsey's) actions. It might be analogous to a queen sacrifice* with a chance to force a mate in battle chess... it should have worked for the IJN, and almost did. (*In this case, the queen had no real power, however.)

Yes, the queen sacrifice almost worked for the Japanese. Right up until the point where it didn't and then they all got crushed.

Meh. If you want to talk about a near run thing, look no farther than Midway. Could the "miracle at Midway" have turned ugly on Spruance? If just a few things happen differently, I see the American CV fleet being mauled badly and Midway being successfully invaded. He *was* lucky-thankfully for us all! But Spruance's star could have fallen off the map had everything not gone just so.

The fleet that broke through to Samar didn't get crushed... Kurita lost his nerve (probably physical exhaustion had a lot to do with it) and he withdrew. Frantic attacks from local CVEs did take a toll on his ships, but the main force was intact.

Halsey, whose job it was to protect the invasion fleet had nothing to do with this as far as i can determine... he kept after the decoy fleet well after receiving what he considered a "stinging rebuke" (from "the world wonders" padding) and had a meltdown on his flagship that drew a real rebuke from his chief of staff Rear Admiral Robert "Mick" Carney telling Halsey "Stop it! What the hell's the matter with you? Pull yourself together."

Re-examining Midway with the actual records (not Fuchida's fanciful account) in Shattered Sword - just about everything that could have gone wrong for the USN did go wrong - it wasn't the miracle that earlier accounts said it was.

Spruance got a LOT of criticism (some from Halsey, IIRC) about not pursuing the IJN fleet at night. Had Halsey been in command, i suspect he would have gone charging off into the black night and suffered a reversal. Of course, speculation is useless (but fun). [:)]
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rtrapasso
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by rtrapasso »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

rtrapasso , GREAT to see you! Andre..I greatly admire Halsey , and Nelson , and I'm still NOT risking my carriers. Period. Risk your own! These are mine! And you can't have them!

Besides , I adhere to a far more ancient and greater military sage....HAIL SIR ROBBIN!!!!![:D]

I'm with you, Steve - Spruance's* moves, not Halsey's.

*though i don't recall that his first name was Robbin.[:'(]
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Lecivius
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by Lecivius »

I dunno. There is also the question of how much ammo Kurita's ships still had. Their gunnery was, to say the least, atrocious. It is very possible he 'shot his wad', and had little option other than to retire.


Still, not gonna Hijack this riveting AAR [;)]
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Lecivius
Still, not gonna Hijack this riveting AAR [;)]

[:D]
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rtrapasso
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by rtrapasso »

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

I dunno. There is also the question of how much ammo Kurita's ships still had. Their gunnery was, to say the least, atrocious. It is very possible he 'shot his wad', and had little option other than to retire.


Still, not gonna Hijack this riveting AAR [;)]
[:D] [:D] [:D]

i've never heard he was low on ammo - but maybe they were... i'll try to look into this. His shooting was bad, but misidentification of targets compounded his error - he was apparently using AP shells on the CVEs thinking they were fleet carriers... the shells would go right through them which may have helped save the ones that did get away. IIRC - they also misidentified the DD as cruisers, and the DEs as DDs.

At any rate, the wolves were right next to the flock and left - only to make a pretty useless sacrifice with some of the same ships a few months later.
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by Zecke »

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: Lecivius

I dunno. There is also the question of how much ammo Kurita's ships still had. Their gunnery was, to say the least, atrocious. It is very possible he 'shot his wad', and had little option other than to retire.


Still, not gonna Hijack this riveting AAR [;)]
[:D] [:D] [:D]

i've never heard he was low on ammo - but maybe they were... i'll try to look into this. His shooting was bad, but misidentification of targets compounded his error - he was apparently using AP shells on the CVEs thinking they were fleet carriers... the shells would go right through them which may have helped save the ones that did get away. IIRC - they also misidentified the DD as cruisers, and the DEs as DDs.

At any rate, the wolves were right next to the flock and left - only to make a pretty useless sacrifice with some of the same ships a few months later.

WHAT¡[:D][:D][:D][:D]
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rtrapasso
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by rtrapasso »

WHAT¡[:D][:D][:D][:D]

The Yamato, Yahagi and some of their escorts who survived the Battle of Samar, were later sent on a "kamikaze" mission to Okinawa and were sunk without accomplishing much.
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BillBrown
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by BillBrown »

This is an interesting AAR, I wonder if any turns are being done in the background.
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Chickenboy
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by Chickenboy »


From the Wiki entry on the Battle of the Philippine Sea:

Spruance was heavily criticized after the battle by many officers, particularly the aviators, for his decision to fight the battle cautiously rather than exploiting his superior forces and intelligence data with a more aggressive posture. By failing to close on the enemy earlier and more forcefully, his critics argue, he squandered an opportunity to destroy the entire Japanese Mobile Fleet.

"This is what comes of placing a non-aviator in command over carriers" was the common refrain.[43] Admiral John Towers, a naval aviation pioneer and Deputy Commander-in-Chief Pacific Fleet, demanded that Spruance be relieved.[44] The request was denied by Admiral Nimitz. Moreover, Spruance was supported in his decision by Nimitz, Kelly Turner, and the top naval commander, the acerbic and highly demanding Admiral Ernest King, Chief of Naval Operations.[45]

In retrospect, it certainly is instructive to compare Spruance's caution (in particular, his suspicion of a diversionary force) with Halsey's headlong pursuit of an actual diversionary force at Leyte Gulf four months later. Halsey left the American invasion fleet weakly protected, and exposed to a nearly successful attack by Japanese heavy surface units.


So another way to read this is-if Spruance had done the needful and finished off the IJN surface fleet, then Halsey wouldn't have had to pick up his leavings and do his dirty work later off Cape Engano. [;)]
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Chickenboy
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

This is an interesting AAR, I wonder if any turns are being done in the background.

Pfft...'Turns'? On an AAR? That's so...predictable. [:D]
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by Zecke »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


From the Wiki entry on the Battle of the Philippine Sea:

Spruance was heavily criticized after the battle by many officers, particularly the aviators, for his decision to fight the battle cautiously rather than exploiting his superior forces and intelligence data with a more aggressive posture. By failing to close on the enemy earlier and more forcefully, his critics argue, he squandered an opportunity to destroy the entire Japanese Mobile Fleet.

"This is what comes of placing a non-aviator in command over carriers" was the common refrain.[43] Admiral John Towers, a naval aviation pioneer and Deputy Commander-in-Chief Pacific Fleet, demanded that Spruance be relieved.[44] The request was denied by Admiral Nimitz. Moreover, Spruance was supported in his decision by Nimitz, Kelly Turner, and the top naval commander, the acerbic and highly demanding Admiral Ernest King, Chief of Naval Operations.[45]

In retrospect, it certainly is instructive to compare Spruance's caution (in particular, his suspicion of a diversionary force) with Halsey's headlong pursuit of an actual diversionary force at Leyte Gulf four months later. Halsey left the American invasion fleet weakly protected, and exposed to a nearly successful attack by Japanese heavy surface units.


So another way to read this is-if Spruance had done the needful and finished off the IJN surface fleet, then Halsey wouldn't have had to pick up his leavings and do his dirty work later off Cape Engano. [;)]

RIGHT; japan never believe in KIDOBUTAYS
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AW1Steve
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by AW1Steve »

My last turn to Geoff was on the 14th. The same day I received it. I'm not hiding turns. [:D]
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Zecke
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by Zecke »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

My last turn to Geoff was on the 14th. The same day I received it. I'm not hiding turns. [:D]

woww¡[;)][:D]
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BillBrown
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by BillBrown »

Well, Gorns are slow. And I think he is out fertilizing his garden.
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by Will_L »

Hope he took some tp with him.
was Will_L for a while.
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rtrapasso
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by rtrapasso »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


From the Wiki entry on the Battle of the Philippine Sea:

Spruance was heavily criticized after the battle by many officers, particularly the aviators, for his decision to fight the battle cautiously rather than exploiting his superior forces and intelligence data with a more aggressive posture. By failing to close on the enemy earlier and more forcefully, his critics argue, he squandered an opportunity to destroy the entire Japanese Mobile Fleet.

"This is what comes of placing a non-aviator in command over carriers" was the common refrain.[43] Admiral John Towers, a naval aviation pioneer and Deputy Commander-in-Chief Pacific Fleet, demanded that Spruance be relieved.[44] The request was denied by Admiral Nimitz. Moreover, Spruance was supported in his decision by Nimitz, Kelly Turner, and the top naval commander, the acerbic and highly demanding Admiral Ernest King, Chief of Naval Operations.[45]

In retrospect, it certainly is instructive to compare Spruance's caution (in particular, his suspicion of a diversionary force) with Halsey's headlong pursuit of an actual diversionary force at Leyte Gulf four months later. Halsey left the American invasion fleet weakly protected, and exposed to a nearly successful attack by Japanese heavy surface units.


So another way to read this is-if Spruance had done the needful and finished off the IJN surface fleet, then Halsey wouldn't have had to pick up his leavings and do his dirty work later off Cape Engano. [;)]

This, of course, presumes that he could have finished off the entire IJN surface fleet, when only part of it was present at The Battle of the Philippine Sea. Spruance did manage to sink 3 out of 5 fleet carriers in the action. There were also 5 battleships, 13 cruisers and numerous other ships present in the IJN fleet.

Some of the ships in the diversionary fleet that Halsey went after later were not present in the Battle of the Philippine Sea, including the Ise, Hyuga, Oyodo, Tama, and Isuzu, so there was no way for Spruance to destroy that part of the diversionary fleet. Would Halsey gone after just this? Given his aggressive tendencies, i would guess he would, although, again, it is speculation.

Junyo and Ryuho which were present at the Battle of Philippine Sea, were not present at Cape Engano.

Zuikaku, Chitose, Chiyoda and Zuiho were present at both battles.

There were 9 DDs also present at Cape Engano, but i am not sure sure which ones, or if they were present at both battles.

To think that Spruance could have destroyed the entire fleet during the battle of the Phillippine Sea is, well, not reasonable. It took planes from 11 fleet aircraft carriers much of 1 day (from launch to recovery) to take out Yamato, Yahagi and 4 DDs off Okinawa. This is 4 more fleet carriers than Spruance had at the Battle of the Philippine Sea (however, he did also have some light carriers).

Halsey went after a far smaller force with almost as many ships (5 fleet and 5 light carriers) as Spruance had at Philippine Sea, and (despite attacking against 1/7 the number if planes Spruance had to contend with) still didn't destroy the entire diversionary force even after pursuing for an additional 3 hours after receiving the "world wonders" message from Nimitz. Halsey finally turned back to help Kinkaid, but not soon enough to do anything. So, he accomplished neither goal - neither complete destruction of the IJN diversionary fleet, nor supporting the invasion fleet. Had he managed either goal, i think maybe he would be looked on with more favor by historians.

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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


From the Wiki entry on the Battle of the Philippine Sea:

Spruance was heavily criticized after the battle by many officers, particularly the aviators, for his decision to fight the battle cautiously rather than exploiting his superior forces and intelligence data with a more aggressive posture. By failing to close on the enemy earlier and more forcefully, his critics argue, he squandered an opportunity to destroy the entire Japanese Mobile Fleet.

"This is what comes of placing a non-aviator in command over carriers" was the common refrain.[43] Admiral John Towers, a naval aviation pioneer and Deputy Commander-in-Chief Pacific Fleet, demanded that Spruance be relieved.[44] The request was denied by Admiral Nimitz. Moreover, Spruance was supported in his decision by Nimitz, Kelly Turner, and the top naval commander, the acerbic and highly demanding Admiral Ernest King, Chief of Naval Operations.[45]

In retrospect, it certainly is instructive to compare Spruance's caution (in particular, his suspicion of a diversionary force) with Halsey's headlong pursuit of an actual diversionary force at Leyte Gulf four months later. Halsey left the American invasion fleet weakly protected, and exposed to a nearly successful attack by Japanese heavy surface units.


So another way to read this is-if Spruance had done the needful and finished off the IJN surface fleet, then Halsey wouldn't have had to pick up his leavings and do his dirty work later off Cape Engano. [;)]

This, of course, presumes that he could have finished off the entire IJN surface fleet, when only part of it was present at The Battle of the Philippine Sea. Spruance did manage to sink 3 out of 5 fleet carriers in the action. There were also 5 battleships, 13 cruisers and numerous other ships present in the IJN fleet.

Some of the ships in the diversionary fleet that Halsey went after later were not present in the Battle of the Philippine Sea, including the Ise, Hyuga, Oyodo, Tama, and Isuzu, so there was no way for Spruance to destroy that part of the diversionary fleet. Would Halsey gone after just this? Given his aggressive tendencies, i would guess he would, although, again, it is speculation.

Ryuho which was present at the Battle of Philippine Sea, was not present at Cape Engano.

Zuikaku, Chitose, Chiyoda and Zuiho were present at both battles.

There were 9 DDs also present at Cape Engano, but i am not sure sure which ones, or if they were present at both battles.

To think that Spruance could have destroyed the entire fleet during the battle of the Phillippine Sea is, well, not reasonable. It took planes from 11 fleet aircraft carriers much of 1 day (from launch to recovery) to take out Yamato, Yahagi and 4 DDs off Okinawa. This is 4 more fleet carriers than Spruance had at the Battle of the Philippine Sea (however, he did also have some light carriers).

Halsey went after a far smaller force with almost as many ships (5 fleet and 5 light carriers) as Spruance had at Philippine Sea, and (despite attacking against 1/7 the number if planes Spruance had to contend with) still didn't destroy the entire diversionary force even after pursuing for an additional 3 hours after receiving the "world wonders" message from Nimitz. Halsey finally turned back to help Kinkaid, but not soon enough to do anything. So, he accomplished neither goal - neither complete destruction of the IJN diversionary fleet, nor supporting the invasion fleet. Had he managed either goal, i think maybe he would be looked on with more favor by historians.

I agree that Spruance couldn't have got the entire Jap fleet. But he could have got some of it if he has pursued with 3 carrier groups and left 1 to guard the beachhead/transports. Or 2 pursue and 2 stay home.

My feeling is that Halsey was overrated, as noted above by someone.
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rtrapasso
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RE: Off to see the lizard.....

Post by rtrapasso »

I agree that Spruance couldn't have got the entire Jap fleet. But he could have got some of it if he has pursued with 3 carrier groups and left 1 to guard the beachhead/transports. Or 2 pursue and 2 stay home.

Also from Wikipedia (which was left out of Chickenboy's quote):

"Spruance's decision was influenced by his orders from Nimitz, who had made it clear that the protection of the invasion fleet was the primary mission of Task Force 58. Spruance had concerns that the Japanese would attempt to draw his main fleet away from the Marianas with a diversionary force while slipping an attack force in to destroy the landing fleet.[25] Locating and destroying the Japanese fleet was not his primary objective, and he was unwilling to allow the main strike force of the Pacific Fleet to be drawn westward, away from the amphibious forces. Mitscher accepted the decision without comment.[22] Spruance's decision in this matter, although subsequently criticized, was certainly justified; by this point in the war, it was well known that Japanese operational plans frequently relied on the use of decoys and diversionary forces."

So, if under orders from Nimitz to destroy the IJN fleet as the primary objective, maybe he would have fought the battle differently. But, he fought the battle according to the objectives given to him. Did Halsey do the same? I haven't seen a specific breakdown of Halsey's orders, but i'll bet that they were similar to those that Nimitz give to Spruance.

It is understandable that he would want to pursue Ozawa, but even so, he should have told the forces that he was supposed to protect that he was leaving (his messages were vague and nobody including Nimitz nor the Seventh Fleet knew what he was doing.)
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